Identification required?

Malum Prohibitum · Feb 12, 2008

imported post

Liko81 wrote:

Malum Prohibitum wrote:

Liko81 wrote:

If there is reasonable articulable suspicion you could be doing something illegal, as you would be if you didn't have a license, they can stop you . . .

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Liko81, if the crime of which the officer suspects you is carrying without a license, would he not have to be able to articulate his particularized reasonable suspicion that you are not licensed before making the stop?

It is not reasonable suspicion that you are a weirdo for carrying, it is reasonable suspicion of a crime. Right?

An Indy car on the freeway would be illegal. A wild paint job may be unusual, but he cannot stop you for something unusual. A wild paint job is not a crime.

Click to expand...

And just like I said, it's an unfair bias.You mentioned awild paint job; thatdoes indeed make the cops look more closely at what you're doing. Same with sports cars, ultra-luxuryvehicles (Bentleys, Rolls Royces, Maseratis)or other conspicuous consumer vehicles. The same aspect of human nature that makes those cars desireable as head-turners also puts you in a more uncomfortable spotlight for thieves and cops. OCing is similar in that respect; it's uncommon and thus it turns heads of both the public at large and LEOs.Turning headsmay or may not be the purpose (one might argue that if you could legally CC and OCed instead your purpose is to advertise the fact you are armed; not the topic ofdiscussion), but regardless, you are going to catch the attention of LEOs, whose job it is to look for things that are out of place that could indicate wrongdoing. OC by itself is not reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing and so the LEO should not simply be able to Terry stop you, but you're going to catch their eye and if they see you doing anything else wrong they can stop you.

A wild paint job may make them look more closely, but they damn well better not attempt a forcible stop based on nothing more than that.

I agree with everything you posted.

They can look all they want. They can even engage me in voluntary conversation, and that has in fact happened to me. The officer wanted to know what I was carrying, and then we ended up talking guns for about 15 minutes. He turned out to bea pretty nice guy and a huge supporter of people carrying firearms.

stuckinchico · Mar 31, 2011

if you fail to give name they arrest under §16-11-36(b) loitering

Fallschirjmäger · Apr 1, 2011

stuckinchico said:
if you fail to give name they arrest under §16-11-36(b) loitering

You may wish to read that section of code again as it seems that you are taking it out of context. Section (b) is dependent upon section (a) which reads - -
16-11-36. (a) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.

Section (a) is the offense, section (b) is the circumstances which establish that an offense May have taken place. Merely not giving your name is not sufficient probable cause for arrest under that section of the OCGA. If it were, then people could be convicted for "... manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object..." which could conceivably include gift wrapping Christmas presents so a child doesn't find out what it is before Christmas morning.

Of course, the old saw is that you can be arrested for eating a ham sandwich in public on a Sunday. Getting a conviction is another matter entirely... as is prosecution for false detainment.

aadvark · Apr 1, 2011

To All Persons so Interested:

Open Carry of a Loaded Firearm is Lawful in The State of Georgia, provided; that if The Firearm is Classified as a Weapon, then, such Person needs to have a Georgia Weapons Carry License on Their Person.

Otherwise..., Georgia is NOT a Stop-and-Identify State.

The Close Range Exception to Sentence Two is when a Person is Loitering, BUT Case Law under that State Statute and another State Statute Conclude that Failure to Identify is NOT either Loitering or Obstruction, in and of itself.

aadvark

*** In Georgia..., Licenses are ONLY needed when State Law Specifically Requires them. ***

*** Senate Bill 102 would REMOVE AND REPEAL The Requirement Dicussed under Sentence 1, above. ***

Fallschirjmäger · Apr 1, 2011

OCGA 16-11-126 (2008 edition)

16-11-126 (c)
This Code section shall not permit, outside of his or her home, motor vehicle, or place of business, the concealed carrying of a pistol, revolver, or concealable firearm by any person unless that person has on his or her person a valid license issued under Code Section 16-11-129 and the pistol, revolver, or firearm may only be carried in a shoulder holster, waist belt holster, or any other holster, hipgrip, or any other similar device, in which event the weapon may be concealed by the person's clothing, or a handbag, purse, attache case, briefcase, or other closed container. Carrying on the person in a concealed manner other than as provided in this subsection shall not be permitted and shall be a collation of this Code section.

In the latest version of 16-11-126, the language requiring that the license be carried 'on the person' has been removed.

It may be supposed that in order to be convicted of violating subsections (a) through (g) of 16-11-126 that it must be proven that the defendant does not possess a valid GWL rather than having the possession of a GWL being an affirmative defense. After all, one may possess a Bible without having to carry it in one's arms 24/7.

aadvark · Apr 2, 2011

Fallschirjmäger:

Under Senate Bill 308, as Passed into Law on June. 04, 2010, Georgia Law 16-11-129(e) states:

... t SHALL be REQUIRED that any License Holder under This Code Section have in His or Her Possession His or Her Valid License whenever He or She is Carrying a Weapon under The Authority Granted by This Code Section, and His or Her Failure to do so SHALL be Prima-Facie Evidence of a Violation of Code Section 16-11-126.

I Agree with Your Argument, as well, however; The Legislature has NOT Repealed This Requirement Specified above..., Albiet They did REPEAL The Anitqueted Requirement found in The Circa Version of Code Section 16-11-126 as You Indicated in Your Post.

aadvark

*** To Self-Verify Information Contained in This Post, Reference The Following:
http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2011_12/fulltext/sb102.htm ***

Fallschirjmäger · Apr 2, 2011

Thank you for the link, I'm happy that we are in agreement the license is not required to be carried "on his or her person".

If my license is in my trunk, my garage, home, safety deposit box, or even in my storage shed, then I am in possession of it just as I would be if there were anhydrous ammonia, any controlled substance, dangerous drugs, drug equipment, unlawful weapon, methamphetamine precursor, or even an imitation of a controlled substance in any of the above areas cf 16-11-111, 16-13-30, 16-13-72, 16-13-32.2, 16-11-123, 16-13-30.3, and 16-13-30.2.

dcmdon · Apr 2, 2011

mzmtg said:
exgabrit wrote:

There is no connection between GFLs and DLs. There is no central database of info for GFLs.

My GFL number is formatted XX-XXXX, nothing like the DL numbers. Each county might number the GFLs they issue differently.

The GFL must be taken at face value by anyone inspecting it.

That shouldn't matter. I'm not saying they can. What I'm saying is that its very common for PDs to be able to do what was described above.

In CT. If a cop enters your DL number he will get all your DL info as well as your pistol permit info. Including both photos.

So unless you are speaking from direct knowledge, its not unreasonable to think that a GA cop could enter name/number off a GFL and end up with a DL photo on his MDT.

Don

Fallschirjmäger · Apr 3, 2011

Maybe that's the reason my driver's license Stays in my car, safely nestled in the sun visor.

I haven't needed to 'identify' myself to anyone (stores, banks, car salesmen) in years, but when I have (airline) my passport card is all they get.

Nullifier · Apr 5, 2011

Fallschirmjäger said:
Maybe that's the reason my driver's license Stays in my car, safely nestled in the sun visor.
I haven't needed to 'identify' myself to anyone (stores, banks, car salesmen) in years, but when I have (airline) my passport card is all they get.

I agree 100%. The passport card was a godsend when I got mine. Nobody sees my DL unless I am actually driving. The Passport Card has my full name and DOB on it, plus photo, sex, and place of birth. Nothing on there gives out too much personal information like my home address, or how much I weigh (which actually fluctuates). It's good in all 50 states and also Wash DC, Puerto Rico, etc. It has JUST ENOUGH identification to properly identify me, without giving out too much information that is nobody else's business. My GFL and my Passport Card are all I need 99% of the time.

stuckinchico · Apr 6, 2011

After trying to inform Varnell Pd about this ( in regards to walking at night say 1 to 2 am) They say that they will still arrest if you fail to produce ID or name. I say Horse Manure. However they dont seem to care.

07gtimyfast · Apr 8, 2011

stuckinchico said:
After trying to inform Varnell Pd about this ( in regards to walking at night say 1 to 2 am) They say that they will still arrest if you fail to produce ID or name. I say Horse Manure. However they dont seem to care.

The key here being id OR name, It is my understanding that if you are stopped by the pd you are required to give either an ID or your name and DOB if requested. I'm just a low'ly dispatcher so I'm not sure on the exact code section but when I asked the officers I work with they advised if requested you are required to give one or the other. Take this with a grain of salt though

stuckinchico · Apr 9, 2011

Ya just like some cops say that you cant have a firearm in your vehicle without a permit. Alot of cops dont know the law.

Brimstone Baritone · Apr 10, 2011

stuckinchico said:
After trying to inform Varnell Pd about this ( in regards to walking at night say 1 to 2 am) They say that they will still arrest if you fail to produce ID or name. I say Horse Manure. However they dont seem to care.

Get ready for this in Alabama, too. Alabama law authorizes a peace officer to demand name and address if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, is, or is about to be committed. Try explaining that to an officer demanding your Driver's License while you are on foot and the only suspicion they can come up with is "I saw your gun and it made me nervous". (And yes, that was the cop herself, and not a 'concerned citizen'.) She was willing to settle for Name, Address and Date of Birth, but I certainly wasn't going to give Date of Birth since it wasn't required even if the detention had been lawful.

Fallschirjmäger · Apr 10, 2011

stuckinchico said:
After trying to inform Varnell Pd about this ( in regards to walking at night say 1 to 2 am) They say that they will still arrest if you fail to produce ID or name. I say Horse Manure. However they dont seem to care.

Varnell Police Department may wish to familiarize themselves with The Georgia Association of Chiefs of Police and in particular with the "Trooper News Legal Update" dated July 2004. Wherein it is written...

An individual may be charged with obstruction (OCGA 16-10-24) for failure to provide their name when:
• They are a SUSPECT. That is, the officer has reasonable suspicion the person has committed or is about to commit a rime. Bailey, 190 Ga.Ap. 683 (1989).
• They are a WITNESS. The officer has good reasons to believe the person’s identification is important to leading to credible evidence in an investigation. Clark, 243 Ga.Ap. 362 (2000). See also Hudson, 135 Ga.Ap. 739 (1975).
• They fail to provide their name during BOOKING. Carter, 188 Ga.Ap. 464 (1988). See also Edwards, 220 Ga.Ap. 74 (1996).

Generally, if the individual is not a suspect or material witness, then there is no basis for obstruction charges for failure to rovide their name. Holt, 227 Ga.Ap. 46 (1997). For example, a PASSENGER who is not a suspect or witness necessary for an accident investigation may be asked their name, but the name cannot be ordered/compelled. Williams, 264 Ga.Ap. 199 (2003).
[ Text emphasis in original]

stuckinchico · Apr 10, 2011

mcdonalk said:
Get ready for this in Alabama, too. Alabama law authorizes a peace officer to demand name and address if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, is, or is about to be committed. Try explaining that to an officer demanding your Driver's License while you are on foot and the only suspicion they can come up with is "I saw your gun and it made me nervous". (And yes, that was the cop herself, and not a 'concerned citizen'.) She was willing to settle for Name, Address and Date of Birth, but I certainly wasn't going to give Date of Birth since it wasn't required even if the detention had been lawful.

My typical response to this is my name is mr citizen with a birth date of july 4 1776. Still havent gotten cited AND i ask what public offense im committing and if i know im not in the wrong my typical response is" You smell that? It smells like ********"

copper top · May 1, 2012

u r required to

U r required to

Fallschirjmäger said:
Here's a question that's caused me a bit of thought lately:

Given that Open Carry is lawful under GA laws so long as one is in posession of a valid GFL.
Given that Open Carry is lawful and should not be a cause for an unwarranted stop by Law Enforcement.

so.....

If stopped by LEO and asked for identification is one under any oblication to provide.....what?
I realise that I am under obligation to provide identification should I be placed under arrest, or am being cited for an infraction. Barring that, what are my legal obligations to the State?

My GFL? I can see where it may be hard to assertain whether I am in fact the person named on the liscense.

NO you are not required to show them gfl (although it would be nice of you to give up your 4th admendment right)

My Driver's License? What if I'm not operating a vehicle on Georgia highways?

Only if. 1 driving a motor veh. 2 being arrested or being suspected of a crime (although it would be nice of you to give up your 4th admendment right) IF THEY INSIST MY REPLY IS AFTER YOU GIVE ME YOURS

My leather bound copy of the Constitution? that thing's waaay too heavy to carry on a daily basis.

No! They most likely wouldnt know what it is anyway.

Now if they ask for you to identify yourself it would be nice to give them your name and always get theirs on your recorder i prefer video as well as audio uploaded straight to the web.

I've been lurking and absorbing for a long time, just occured to me to come up for air.

Fallschirjmäger · May 1, 2012

copper top said:
U r required to

i r required to whut?

Sorry, but putting aside the netspeak, you have provided no citation to authority for your post.

copper top · May 1, 2012

appologies for the netspeak as i am on mobile and not pc. I do believe i stated in my reply 4th admendement rights which cover illegal search and seizure so in my own words if the leo has no probable cause or no warrant he does not have the right to demand i give him my id card nor my gwl nor my copy of the constitution. But my experiences with leo seem to be extremely short. Dont know why if its my camera recording them, my constantly asking them questions on why im being detained? If they say im not i wish them a good day and leave.if they give me a legal reason i change my question to am i free to go? After each of their lawfull questions i answer

Fallschirmjäger said:
i r required to whut?

Sorry, but putting aside the netspeak, you have provided no citation to authority for your post.

Fallschirjmäger · May 1, 2012

My apologies, CT, from what little made it to the screen, I thought you were saying that one was required to produce gov't issued upon request by LE.

Identification required?

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