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Thread: Surprise, surprise

  1. #1
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    I've held a CC permit for over 20 years in Hampton and now Newport News, Virginia and had fortunately never had the need to use my gun during this time. About two years ago I was up late, working on a computer problem in my home office when I heard a noise outside. When I went to investigate I saw someone trying to look into one of my bedroom windows.

    I grabbed my trusty Browning Hi-Power (1961 vintage) and called 911. As I watched the intruder I passed along a detailed description to the dispatcher. By the way I learned long ago that you really get service if you tell the police that you are armed.

    Before the police arrived however, this guy gave up trying to see inside and walked off. While still on the phone, I snuck outside and surprised the guy as he was leaving.

    I walked up behind him (about 30 feet away) and told him to stop in an authoritative voice. He stopped. I told him to get on his knees with his hands behind his head. He walked his bicycle to the curb, walked up into my yard, and complied. From about 15 feet away, I held him at gunpoint until the police arrived, all the while questioning him and passing information over to the dispatcher.

    When the first officer arrived, the dispatcher told me that an officer was in the area and she told me to put down my weapon. I told her I was going to wait until the officer was close enough to control the situation. She told me again to put it down but I just repeated my desire as the officer got close enough to make eye contact with me. At that time I got off the phone, stepped away from the guy, placed my pistol in the grass, and walked away from it.

    About that time, 6 other cars came in at a high rate of speed. They took the culprit into custody and tossed him into one of the patrol cars.

    He confessed and his story corraborated mine. He was released to the custody of his parents (same neighborhood) and the arresting officer charged him with peeping tom.

    All of the officers congratulated me on a job well done. One said he wished victims would do as I had done. After checking my weapon and clearing it, one of the officers handed it back to me.

    I was never scared but I was tense after running all the details over in my head trying to be sure that I was doing everything right. I also wanted to make sure that he was alone and that someone wasn't going to sneak up behind me.

    It all worked out in the end. The not-so-kid turned out to be 19. The prosecutor asked me for input into his sentencing. I suggested probation and community service since he had no record at all and the family had been in the neighborhood for many years. He had already come by with his father and had given an honest apology. He was obviously ashamed of what he had done.

    Two years later he is succesful in college, has a job, bought his own car, and waves and speaks to me regularly.

    I'm just glad it all worked out. Had he been a trouble maker or had had a record I would have suggested some jail time. I just hope that this was just a stupid decision and he's learned his lesson.

    I have always kept at least two weapons at various stages of readiness in my house at all times. This night that worked out in my favor as I was able to get one in use and actually apprehend a criminal with only the presence of that weapon.

    In retrospect, I was never in condition white and almost never am, especially when carrying out of the house. I can look back and identify the different stages I went through that night, all the way to red and then black when the threat had been removed.


    I'm glad that the criminal was caught and that no one was hurt. I also hope that this was a wakeup call to this guy and that he remains on the right track after what happened that night.

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    Awesome story!

    Sounds like you may have saved a life besides your own!

    Let's face it, if you have someone on their knees at gunpoint, and someone else sees you while casing the neighborhood, they are probably going to skip your place...

    And uh, welcome! :celebrate
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    Hmm a peeping tom eh? Your wife must be hot, or else this guy is gay .

    If I was ever caught doing something like that, I would never be able to face the person again, let alone wave and talk to them, you are more forgiving than myself.

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    HardChrome wrote:
    I walked up behind him (about 30 feet away) and told him to stop in an authoritative voice. He stopped. I told him to get on his knees with his hands behind his head. He walked his bicycle to the curb, walked up into my yard, and complied. From about 15 feet away, I held him at gunpoint until the police arrived, all the while questioning him and passing information over to the dispatcher.

    Is that legal? Was he off your property when you first pointed the gun at him and apprehended him?

    Why didn't you just go grab the guy by the collar and hold him for the cops?




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    HankT wrote:

    HardChrome wrote:
    I walked up behind him (about 30 feet away) and told him to stop in an authoritative voice. He stopped. I told him to get on his knees with his hands behind his head. He walked his bicycle to the curb, walked up into my yard, and complied. From about 15 feet away, I held him at gunpoint until the police arrived, all the while questioning him and passing information over to the dispatcher.

    Is that legal? Was he off your property when you first pointed the gun at him and apprehended him?

    Why didn't you just go grab the guy by the collar and hold him for the cops?

    I never pointed the gun at him, just in his general direction but at the ground. I was tanding in my yard and he was in the street. He volunteered to step into my yard. I just told him to get on his knees.

    Grab him by the collar? Well, one hand was on my gun, the other was holding my phone to my ear with the dispatcher on the other end, he was a little bit bigger than me, and I didn't want to touch him. That would probably have been battery. He chose to follow my commands. If he were smart he would have just kept on walking.

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    I'm glad it turned out the way it did. Pointing a firearm, even in the general direction, of somebody already leaving your property can get you in some deep trouble...

    I personally would have probably let him go since he decided to leave. But it seems to have turned out okay anyways.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    HardChrome wrote:
    I walked up behind him (about 30 feet away) and told him to stop in an authoritative voice. He stopped. I told him to get on his knees with his hands behind his head. He walked his bicycle to the curb, walked up into my yard, and complied. From about 15 feet away, I held him at gunpoint until the police arrived, all the while questioning him and passing information over to the dispatcher.

    Is that legal? Was he off your property when you first pointed the gun at him and apprehended him?

    Why didn't you just go grab the guy by the collar and hold him for the cops?


    Sometimes I wonder if people should even respond to your comments......as they become more and more absurd with every post you make.......

    If someone was looking at breaking into my house, I wouldn't care if he was on my property or my neighbors.If this guy was messing around my neighbors' house, I would STILL confront him. My neighbors would be glad that I stopped this idiot rather than letting him move on to their house, whether I did it on their property or not. Whether or not the gun were in play or not would be based on the situation at the time, but I guarantee you it would be with me and ready.

    And I have to wonder if you eventhought before you said to "grab the guy by the collar"? I hope you never have to be in a SD situation, because your thought process is obviously tactically unsound. You don't want to close the distance between you and the other person, because it becomes a CQC situation where it is much more likely that person can pull a knife, grab your gun and pull it away from you, etc, etc. Get as much distance as you can while still being close enough to control the situation, that way if the person suddenly lunges at you, you have that much more time to aim and pull the trigger. Police practice this, where one officer holding someone at gunpoint will mostalways wait until they have another officer tocover them while they cuff the suspect. This way if the suspect tries something as they are attempting to cuff him, the other officercan still fire and end the threat.


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    compmanio365 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    HardChrome wrote:
    I walked up behind him (about 30 feet away) and told him to stop in an authoritative voice. He stopped. I told him to get on his knees with his hands behind his head. He walked his bicycle to the curb, walked up into my yard, and complied. From about 15 feet away, I held him at gunpoint until the police arrived, all the while questioning him and passing information over to the dispatcher.

    Is that legal? Was he off your property when you first pointed the gun at him and apprehended him?

    Why didn't you just go grab the guy by the collar and hold him for the cops?


    Sometimes I wonder if people should even respond to your comments......as they become more and more absurd with every post you make.......

    You are right but some of us just can't keep our mouths shut.

    I have actually found myself agreeing with HankT on a couple of occasions. :what:


    BUT not this one.

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    Citizens arrest is legal in many if not most states.

    I threatened just that to some drunken teen trespassers last summer.
    They were on my neighbors property (that I watch while she is out of town)
    This was after the police scattered the punks by showing up to a street brawl of some sort up the road.
    Kids scattered, police left then I had to clean up the mess so to say.


    Hank is the type that peeks out his curtain and watches as someone else does the right thing. Unfortunately I am surrounded by neighbors just like Hank.



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    I'd just recommend checking your state law before doing anything like that, and memorizing your criminal code.

    In my state a citizens arrest is only valid if:

    1. You SEE a misdomeaner occurring
    2. You have reasonable cause to believe a felony is being committed or about to be committed

    And you better be sure what specific laws they are breaking. You get no immunity like the cops do. If they weren't held for a specific reason, it's kidnapping, assault, etc on YOU.

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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Citizens arrest is legal in many if not most states.
    I wonder what LEO 229 would say about the OP's handling of this incident? Specifically, HardChrome's pointing a gun in the general direction of and atthe unarmedperp.

    Would LEO 229 have also congratulated HardChrome for a job well done asat least 7 Hampton or Newport News LEOs did?



    I wonder...

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    I'd just recommend checking your state law before doing anything like that, and memorizing your criminal code.
    Good point. Some states this is probably a no-no or gray area.




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    HankT wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Citizens arrest is legal in many if not most states.
    I wonder what LEO 229 would say about the OP's handling of this incident? Specifically, HardChrome's pointing a gun in the general direction of and atthe unarmedperp.

    Would LEO 229 have also congratulated HardChrome for a job well done asat least 7 Hampton or Newport News LEOs did?



    I wonder...
    I could care less what leo229 would think in this situation. If it was me I would have pointed my gun at the unarmed perp (Does this really matter or do you know if he is armed at this point?) and not in the general direction. He is my target, might as well have him in the sights and not try to acqiure him if it all goes to hell.

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    occva wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Citizens arrest is legal in many if not most states.
    I wonder what LEO 229 would say about the OP's handling of this incident? Specifically, HardChrome's pointing a gun in the general direction of and atthe unarmedperp.

    Would LEO 229 have also congratulated HardChrome for a job well done asat least 7 Hampton or Newport News LEOs did?



    I wonder...
    I could care less what leo229 would think in this situation. If it was me I would have pointed my gun at the unarmed perp (Does this really matter or do you know if he is armed at this point?) and not in the general direction. He is my target, might as well have him in the sights and not try to acqiure him if it all goes to hell.
    Well, since you asked...

    You have a guy peeping in your windows and you go out to engage him with a gun?

    So let me see if I have it right... we have a person we do not knowwhocould be armed with a weapon. He has not attempted to gain entry to the residenceand was only observed outside the exterior.We have no idea why he is even there.

    You have called the police and provided a detailed description of the person and they are on the way. He starts to walk away creating a safer environment for you and your family. He has notcaused any harm to any persons or property.

    You go outsideyour home and instead of just reporting where he is going... you decide toconfront the person. Hehas committed a very petty crime at best and youdecide to risk getting into a gunfight and being killed.

    To me... you needlessly placed yourself into a possibly deadly situation.

    What you did not know is that there was a secondguy there too playing lookout andhe shoots you in the back.

    You would probably be the same guy that has a gun in the bank during an armed bank robbery and decides to take the robber out only to get shot and killed by the accomplice that was playing customer in line.

    IMO..... There is a time to confront the bad guy and it is not when your in a safe position. As a last resort.... should you jump into the fire unless you must.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    occva wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Citizens arrest is legal in many if not most states.
    I wonder what LEO 229 would say about the OP's handling of this incident? Specifically, HardChrome's pointing a gun in the general direction of and atthe unarmedperp.

    Would LEO 229 have also congratulated HardChrome for a job well done asat least 7 Hampton or Newport News LEOs did?



    I wonder...
    I could care less what leo229 would think in this situation. If it was me I would have pointed my gun at the unarmed perp (Does this really matter or do you know if he is armed at this point?) and not in the general direction. He is my target, might as well have him in the sights and not try to acqiure him if it all goes to hell.
    Well, since you asked...

    You have a guy peeping in your windows and you go out to engage him with a gun?

    So let me see if I have it right... we have a person we do not knowwhocould be armed with a weapon. He has not attempted to gain entry to the residenceand was only observed outside the exterior.We have no idea why he is even there.

    You have called the police and provided a detailed description of the person and they are on the way. He starts to walk away creating a safer environment for you and your family. He has notcaused any harm to any persons or property.

    You go outsideyour home and instead of just reporting where he is going... you decide toconfront the person. Hehas committed a very petty crime at best and youdecide to risk getting into a gunfight and being killed.

    To me... you needlessly placed yourself into a possibly deadly situation.

    What you did not know is that there was a secondguy there too playing lookout andhe shoots you in the back.

    You would probably be the same guy that has a gun in the bank during an armed bank robbery and decides to take the robber out only to get shot and killed by the accomplice that was playing customer in line.

    IMO..... There is a time to confront the bad guy and it is not when your in a safe position. As a last resort.... should you jump into the fire unless you must.
    All of that did go through my mind so I did some thinking before I acted. The main thing I wanted to accomplish was to get him in police custody.

    I watched him for quite a while to see if he was alone and all the evidence pointed to that. I had seen a strange bike across the street even before I saw him. As he left, he walked the bike by himself. As I went outside I constantly looked around to see if he was alone. I kept my back to my truck just in case someone else was with him.

    In order to see where he was going I would have had to leave my property and follow him, something I was not willing to do lest I put myself in territory more familiar to him and less to me.

    When it was all over with, I was mentally tired from running all the different scenarios through my head as it was going down. I think his knowledge of my passing along the description and conversation to the dispatcher in front of him kept him calm and convinced that he was caught.

    I'm sure six different people (including police officers) would have handled it six different ways. After a recent string of break-ins and cases of vandalism, I was intent on seeing this guy in custody.

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    I'm not saying what you did is wrong. Only you know the facts and only you can decide what you think is best.

    I, personally, would only interfere in things that affect me. Mainly because of liability reasons. Yes... I would love to help the little old granny being mugged in the alley. Problem is, I'm not risking a lawsuit in civil or criminal court from the granny or the mugger in case anything goes wrong, or in case anything doesn't go wrong....

    If you can walk away unscathed. Walk away....

    From the facts given in this case I would have taken pictures and called the police. Not escalated the enounter with the threat of lethal force. I'm glad it turned out okay, it's just not something everybody should probably be doing.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    I'm not saying what you did is wrong. Only you know the facts and only you can decide what you think is best.

    I, personally, would only interfere in things that affect me. Mainly because of liability reasons. Yes... I would love to help the little old granny being mugged in the alley. Problem is, I'm not risking a lawsuit in civil or criminal court from the granny or the mugger in case anything goes wrong, or in case anything doesn't go wrong....

    If you can walk away unscathed. Walk away....

    From the facts given in this case I would have taken pictures and called the police. Not escalated the enounter with the threat of lethal force. I'm glad it turned out okay, it's just not something everybody should probably be doing.
    I know where you are coming from, and it's sad that in this day and age, we won't run to help a fellow human being in need because we are afraid of the litigation involved. I'm not sure if something like that would be covered under the "good samaritan" laws in place in a lot of states to protect those who help those in need from lawsuits later on.

    I, personally, have thought about this and discussed it between my wife and I; we both agreed that if a situation arose to where I knew someone needed my help in a situation where if I did nothing that person would be severely harmed or killed, I would do what it took to help that person and accept the risk involved. I could not look at myself from then on if I were to simply walk away and learn later the person was raped/maimed/killed.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    I know where you are coming from, and it's sad that in this day and age, we won't run to help a fellow human being in need because we are afraid of the litigation involved. I'm not sure if something like that would be covered under the "good samaritan" laws in place in a lot of states to protect those who help those in need from lawsuits later on.

    I, personally, have thought about this and discussed it between my wife and I; we both agreed that if a situation arose to where I knew someone needed my help in a situation where if I did nothing that person would be severely harmed or killed, I would do what it took to help that person and accept the risk involved. I could not look at myself from then on if I were to simply walk away and learn later the person was raped/maimed/killed.
    I'm not sure you're discussing the OP's case, compmanio365. In the OP, there was no fellow human being needing help. There was no good samaritan involved. No one needed help from being severely harmed or killed.

    No one who was later going to be raped/maimed/killed.

    You are talking about a different scenario.

    It was just a peeping Tom whowas unarmed and hewas departing the scene.

    No need for a gun (at least in the way it was used) in the Peeping Tom situation that the OP described.

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    HankT wrote:
    ...No need for a gun (at least in the way it was used) in the Peeping Tom situation that the OP described.
    In your opinion.

    He decided to stop perp. (and was apparently legal in doing so where he resides)
    He had gun at low ready in case he needed it.

    Again, your opinion is he didn't need it. He obviously felt otherwise <shrug>



  20. #20
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    I was talking about the comments made in the previous post about the poster not helping the "granny being mugged in the alleyway".....not specifically about the OP, but it is related.

    The reason crime is as prevalent as it is in this country and especially in some areas, is because the criminal knows that most, if not all people, depending on location, are unarmed, afraid, and unwilling to defend themselves, much less their fellow man. If these people knew that there was a better than 70% chance that this family was armed, that even if this family was not home, that the neighbor just might come out and kick your a$$ for messing with his neighbors property; if they had a reasonable fear that they might not go home tonight, but rather to the city morgue, criminals might choose a career with a longer life expectancy.

    Again, I understand and do not judge those that feel they cannot afford to be involved in other people's business, but it IS attitudes such as this that has got this country in the state it is today, where crime is rampant and you don't even know who your neighbor is, much less give a care about what happens to them.

    This idea was proven in the OP, where after this kid was confronted with spending time in jail, and even possibly losing his life, all because he thought it would be fun to play a little game......well, he realized he didn't want to deal with that again, so he better shape up and fly right. Not saying this will happen 100% of the time, or even 50% of the time. But if this kid had simply been able to go home and nothing happened, he would probably been emboldened by his actions leading to nothing of consequence, and maybe next time it wouldn't have been just peeking....it would have been breaking and entering.......then armed robbery....then murder......STOP THE PROBLEM EARLY.......

    With the attitude of "don't get involved until it's ABSOLUTELY necessary", well, before long, it WILL be necessary, because it's your house that is being targeted, and you end up having to shoot someone that has broken into your house, or end up getting killed yourself. Stop the problem when you have the chance, and with less chance of harm to you and the other person, and that person is going to go back to his "hood" or buddies, whatever, and tell them not to bother with this block because there is a guy that actually is watching out for crime and there is a good chance they would get caught doing whatever they were doing there. Hence, a safer neighborhood for everyone. Now imagine if there were one person on every block that was like that......where would criminals perform their crimes? I've seen this work......as long as there are people who actually care about preventing crime in their neighborhood.

    You can live your whole life being afraid of being the next victim of crime, or you can actively DO something about it. That's what the OP was doing, and I applaud him for it, and making a positive change in his community. The young man sounded like he really turned his life around after a rude awaking, and if it took the OP having to give him a moment of pause before that happened, then so be it.


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    ^^ I agree partially.

    Also, as I said, the main reason I wouldn't help a stranger is litigation. I could possibily risk my life to help someone, only to have my life ruined in court the following twenty years. It's not worth it. Until the court system is fixed it's better to just keep to yourself.

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    Well said compmanio365, well said.
    "...our media are palace eunuchs gazing avidly at the harem of power and stroking their impotent pens in time to the rape of our liberties."
    -Sarah Hoyt

    "America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
    -Claire Wolfe

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    ^^ I agree partially.

    Also, as I said, the main reason I wouldn't help a stranger is litigation. I could possibily risk my life to help someone, only to have my life ruined in court the following twenty years. It's not worth it. Until the court system is fixed it's better to just keep to yourself.
    Imagine the person most precious to you (a spouse, parent, child, etc). Imagine that person is being viscously raped and murdered in an alley. Now imagine that I saw this happening and, despite being armed, scurried away to the legal safety of my home.

    Fear of litigation is just as cowardly as fear of injury and death. Chivalry is not dead.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    ^^ I agree partially.

    Also, as I said, the main reason I wouldn't help a stranger is litigation. I could possibily risk my life to help someone, only to have my life ruined in court the following twenty years. It's not worth it. Until the court system is fixed it's better to just keep to yourself.
    Imagine the person most precious to you (a spouse, parent, child, etc). Imagine that person is being viscously raped and murdered in an alley. Now imagine that I saw this happening and, despite being armed, scurried away to the legal safety of my home.

    Fear of litigation is just as cowardly as fear of injury and death. Chivalry is not dead.
    Imagine a Peeping Tom. You see him peeping through the window. You call911and report a description ofhim. They send cops to respond. You go outsidewith your gun. Youscan the environment, no bad guysother than the kid. 19 years old, bicycle, already off your property and walking away. He is unarmed.No neighbor's property has been damaged. No relative of yours is being raped....

    Imagine the situation the OP described...

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    HankT wrote:
    Imagine the situation the OP described...
    Maybe the conversation is a bit off course, but I wasn't aware you were moderating this discussion. However, I'll take this as an invitation to comment on the OP.

    I agree with how this was handled. This guy was prowling around on private property in the middle of the night. Maybe he was just trying to get a glimpse of some skin... maybe he was staking the place out to burglarize later. In any case, he was up to no good.

    The cops didn't fault the way this was handled. The kids parent(s), who came by the next day, didn't fault him. Sounds to me like it was well handled. If you don't like that, then don't move to wherever HardChrome lives, because you will not fit in.
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    Don't Tread On Me.

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