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Thread: Encounter with an Anti-Open in Sandpoint

  1. #1
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    Well, I just hadmy firstin-depth conversation with someone on the other side of the fence since I have started open-carrying. I was walking around downtown Sandpoint with my wife, and we decided to walk down to the third street pier. There was a family swimming there already, and I nodded hi and walked to the end and sat down looking outover the lake. The father called over to me asking if I was a police officer or something similar. I replied to the contrary, stating that I just carried for the protection of me and mine.

    We ended up having about around a 10 minute conversation. I won't recount all of it, but I was able to give my reasons for carrying, and he gave his reasons for not carrying. He did recognize that it was a legal right, but that in his opinion it was unwise. Note that he did say he has firearms at home, just that he doesn't like them carried in public. Some of his justifications included:

    -It will escalate any situation directly from unpleaseantness to deadly force.

    -It will set a bad example (specifically for his kids).

    -That while I may have taken the time to think through my decision to carry, it will possibly push some punk over the edge to think, "well, if he can do it, then so can I!" and cause a less responsible person to go out with a gun unprepared for the consequences of his decision.

    -That Sandpoint is a very safe place, and that there is no need to carry here.

    -That it's the police's job to take care of any unpleasant situation, rather than mine.

    -That the increased presence of guns in society will cause an increase in deadly incidents.

    -That if there ever was a shooting, that the police might shoot the good guy, instead of the bad guy.

    Note that he was fairly calm throughout the conversation, although somewhat exciteable. I was impressed that he even decided to talk with me about it, rather than just gathering his family and leaving. He ended up using just about every arguement that I have ever heard agains the carriage of firearms.

    I won't go through all of my answers to his arguements, as we have heard them before on these forums. The one point that he did make that got me thinking hard was his question about whether it is responsible to set that example for those around me. While my answer was a definite YES, it did cause me to revisit my reasons for carrying. In my view, there are three main reasons whyone would open-carry.

    -For the protection of self and others.

    -For the education of those around about the legality and use of firearms.

    -To cause a reaction.

    In my opinion, if the reason for open carrying is to cause a reaction, either from the police or others around, then open carry is NOT justified. If the reason is strictly for protection, then there are places where open carry is completely justified, and other places where discretion says that concealed carry is the wiser option, for example, in church (my opinion) or a playground (also my opinion). The second reason is where my thoughts get a little bit more hazy. While there is nothing wrong with causing discussion, if you are carrying somewhere that you know the general bent is against firearms, then you are probably straying into the "cause a reaction" mindset, and it would once again be better to conceal, not because open carryis illegal, but because concealed carryis responsible. This has actually caused me to decide to finally go get my concealed carry permit here in Idaho, so that I have the option of concealing in a place that would maybe make those around me more nervous than normal.

    So all in all, it was a very good conversation. While I respect his views, and he listened to mine, in the end we decided to agree to disagree. I still believe that it is my responsibility to take care of my own, and that not carrying would be bothirresponsible and in fact wrong.If he chooses to go a different route, I won't try to stop him, as long as he doesn't try to stop me. (Which he didn't)

    He did make one further point, which is that if I do want to continue to open carry, that I should get to know the officers in the police and sherriff's departments, so that I don't make them nervous when they see me. I do think that this is a great idea, not so much to avoid making them nervous, but just to know them and make myself known. So maybe some ride-alongs are in my future.

    Anyway, until next time....

    Brenton

  2. #2
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    Thank you for sharing your account, with plenty of details, of your conversation with the anti-OCer.

    What a great discussion you had. I think, even though you ended up disagreeing with him and he with you, that some significant good came of your time with each other. I do think you both communicated. And thecommunication was generative of further thought.That's a good thing.

    From your analysis of the exchange, as well as the other points you touched on, I believe you are a thoughtful man.

    It would be nice to have a person like that fellow you conversed with today come and visit OCDO and exchange some ideas. We would all learn something...

    Thanks again for filling us in on your encounter.


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    While I read your post I started to wonder why people feel the need to question a person who is carrying. Assuming they know it is legal, why do they feel they have to quiestion it? How would the gentleman respond if you approached him and asked why he wasn't carrying?

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    Freakhouse wrote:
    SNIP...While there is nothing wrong with causing discussion, if you are carrying somewhere that you know the general bent is against firearms, then you are probably straying into the "cause a reaction" mindset, and it would once again be better to conceal, not because open carryis illegal, but because concealed carryis responsible.

    He did make one further point, which is that if I do want to continue to open carry, that I should get to know the officers in the police and sherriff's departments, so that I don't make them nervous when they see me. I do think that this is a great idea, not so much to avoid making them nervous, but just to know them and make myself known. So maybe some ride-alongs are in my future.
    Places where it is legal but against the general bentwould beexactly the places to OC.

    I don't think there is really a way to accurately tell if public carry is against the general bent. For example, gun controllers lie, distort, mislead, etc. I certainly would not trust their report that a certain percentage of people are against public carry. The press is far too often a mouth-piece for gun-controllers, so I wouldn't trust anything they said about general bent, either. Also, too many pro-gun people are too wrapped up in the idea of "don't rock the boat because they'll make more gun-control laws" or "its tactically unsound," so I also wouldn't givecredit to much of anything they had to say about "general bent."








    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Freakhouse wrote:
    -That Sandpoint is a very safe place, and that there is no need to carry here.
    For those not familiar with Sandpoint, some describe it as an enclave of Californication in the Edenic paradise of Northern Idaho. I've visited a number of times from Priest River, my brothers home.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    Citizen wrote:
    Places where it is legal but against the general bentwould beexactly the places to OC.

    I don't think there is really a way to accurately tell if public carry is against the general bent. For example, gun controllers lie, distort, mislead, etc. I certainly would not trust their report that a certain percentage of people are against public carry. The press is far too often a mouth-piece for gun-controllers, so I wouldn't trust anything they said about general bent, either. Also, too many pro-gun people are too wrapped up in the idea of "don't rock the boat because they'll make more gun-control laws" or "its tactically unsound," so I also wouldn't givecredit to much of anything they had to say about "general bent."
    I think the more important thing to remember is that you are not responsible for the misconceptions and dislike other feel toward OC (or firearms in general). If someone takes offense it's their problem, not mine. There is no right to not be offended. So long as I don't violate their rights, they have no cause to violate mine.
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    Freakhouse,

    You did real good. Don't let them "guilt" you into hiding what is perfectly legal. If you want to CC do it for your reasons not theirs. If you do go that way, run on over to Newport, WA and get a Washington Concealed Pistol License. $60.00 and less than 30 days till you are good to go in WA, ID and MT. That's what most of the locals do.

    We really need to start turning these conversations around. Ask them why aren't they carrying? Don't they love their kids? What would they do to protect them from a threat?

    By the way, my wife and I were both open carrying while playing with our youngest at the new playground at Memorial Park. Other families with their kids were playing with us and everyone was having a good time. The only time the topic of guns came up was when a little girl asked mine "why does your Dad have a gun? Is it for bears?"

    Remember, we are the good guys.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Freakhouse wrote:
    -That while I may have taken the time to think through my decision to carry, it will possibly push some punk over the edge to think, "well, if he can do it, then so can I!" and cause a less responsible person to go out with a gun unprepared for the consequences of his decision.
    So this guy, just by virtue of being a "punk" should not be granted the same rights as I?



    I agree that people should be properly educated when it comes to firearms. But the reality is that not everyone does. Are they wrong? What if that "punk" had this on his hip?



    They may look odd, but last time I checked these guys hurt themselves more often than they hurt others.



    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Freakhouse wrote:
    -It will escalate any situation directly from unpleaseantness to deadly force.

    -It will set a bad example (specifically for his kids).

    -That while I may have taken the time to think through my decision to carry, it will possibly push some punk over the edge to think, "well, if he can do it, then so can I!" and cause a less responsible person to go out with a gun unprepared for the consequences of his decision.

    -That Sandpoint is a very safe place, and that there is no need to carry here.

    -That it's the police's job to take care of any unpleasant situation, rather than mine.

    -That the increased presence of guns in society will cause an increase in deadly incidents.

    -That if there ever was a shooting, that the police might shoot the good guy, instead of the bad guy.
    VS

    -For the protection of self and others.


    -For the education of those around about the legality and use of firearms.


    -To cause a reaction.
    -It will escalate any situation directly from unpleasantness to deadly force.[/b]

    Not true at all, in fact the general reaction is the situation is diffused if a firearm is introduced.

    -It will set a bad example (specifically for his kids).[/b]

    How is learning accountability and responsibility a bad example?

    -That while I may have taken the time to think through my decision to carry, it will possibly push some punk over the edge to think, "well, if he can do it, then so can I!" and cause a less responsible person to go out with a gun unprepared for the consequences of his decision.[/b]

    There are always stupid people, but that’s no reason not to protect yourself and your loved ones.

    -That Sandpoint is a very safe place and that there is no need to carry here.[/b]

    So was V-TEC before the shooting.

    -That it's the police's job to take care of any unpleasant situation, rather than mine.[/b]

    Police respond AFTER a crime is committed. If that crime is life threatening then you could be dead.

    -That the increased presence of guns in society will cause an increase in deadly incidents.[/b]

    Facts have proven this wrong. Crime goes down when there is more guns. Look at DC and NYC for proof of this.

    -That if there ever was a shooting, that the police might shoot the good guy, instead of the bad guy.[/b]

    This is a real issue; however police usually don’t shoot first. You come out with your hands up and you should be fine.

    -For the education of those around about the legality and use of firearms.[/b]

    A right not exercised is a right lost.

    -To cause a reaction.[/b]

    This depends on what reaction. I prefer to think I am normalizing carrying a handgun, so this is a good reaction. Scaring people would be a bad reaction.

    And you forgot to mention “Comfort” and “response time” for good reasons to OC.
    [/quote]

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    SGT Jensen wrote:


    That's a pretty cool custom job and coffin case. But if the pistol's supposed to be a "vampire slayer" I wonder if the owner has wooden bullets...

  11. #11
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    Sarg...Where did you find a Pic of me?



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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Sarg...Where did you find a Pic of me?
    I snapped this pic behind Harmons after the guard snatched your pistol. What you don't see in this pic is the guard begging for forgiveness. Oh, crap. I am off topic and beating a dead horse. I'm sorry, that is Hank's job.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Sarg...Where did you find a Pic of me?
    I snapped this pic behind Harmons after the guard snatched your pistol. What you don't see in this pic is the guard begging for forgiveness. Oh, crap. I am off topic and beating a dead horse. I'm sorry, that is Hank's job.
    ROTFLMAO....

    ROTFLMAO....

    U Fuunny...

  14. #14
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Sarg...Where did you find a Pic...
    I snapped this pic behind Harmons after the guard snatched your pistol. What you don't see in this pic is the guard begging for forgiveness.


    Good one!

    I think it's OK to needleUTOC-45-44about it (since it proves a point) and he seems to have a sense of humor about his incident. Contrast that to some of the dour dudes around here.


    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Oh, crap. I am off topic and beating a dead horse. I'm sorry, that is Hank's job.
    Glad you could help, SGT. Can always use the help. Maybe you couldfun onthe un-neutralizer. That guy has no SOH what-so-evah.

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Sarg...Where did you find a Pic of me?

    I thought this was you?UTOC-45-44
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