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Thread: Winter Concerns

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    We have had a lot of talk about summer carry and how to conceal or open carry effectively, now with summer coming to a close and the coats and jackets soon coming out what are some effective measures you have found? Some Issue I can think of is slow draws due to bulky clothing; rain/snow and how to protect your gun, how to efficiently OC or CC in standard winter style gear; and any other concerns that may arise. Utah’s winters can get harsh some years and it sucks to be caught unprepared.

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    I don't really dress all that differently in the winter than in the summer, except that I wear a coat or jacket sometimes when outside. I don't see this alone as adding much difficulty to getting to an OWB or IWB weapon. Others might wear much more and this would certainly be an issue. I think a lot of winter clothing allows better carry OWB and this would make things a lot easier if you're layered. But, this also leaves the gun more exposed to the elements and the cold.

    I think the biggest barrier and issue in the winter is heavy gloves and I'm not quite sure what to do about that short of cutting the trigger finger off of all of them.

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    welll... seein as itll be around 20 degrees here... and ill still have to open carry... thatll be fun for you guys watchin a bundled up californian whos never seen snow, walkin around lookin like a huge pile of jackets, with a gun strapped to his hip HAHAHAH!

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    If your attire changes in the winter, and for most people it does, practice drawing your gun when you carrying them undershirts, jackets, coats, vest, and so on. My PD has a Conealed Carry Firearms Qualification Course we qualify on. We have on eithera shirt or coat and theoff duty holster we normally use.

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    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    xmirage2kx wrote:
    We have had a lot of talk about summer carry and how to conceal or open carry effectively, now with summer coming to a close and the coats and jackets soon coming out what are some effective measures you have found? Some Issue I can think of is slow draws due to bulky clothing; rain/snow and how to protect your gun, how to efficiently OC or CC in standard winter style gear; and any other concerns that may arise. Utah’s winters can get harsh some years and it sucks to be caught unprepared.
    I love winter time for carrying. In winter its concealed carry when I have my coat on and open carry when I don't.


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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    2 words...... Thigh rig.

    An all black gun in an all black thigh rig on black BDU pants?

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    This is probably the only reason I have a CHP here in Colorado... the endless winters and the heavy clothing to keep those winters out. If you can't get one (too young, etc), there are two practical options I can see. One, you could get a thigh rig like kingfish suggested. It's a little "guy wants to be in SWAT" for me, but that doesn't change the fact that with a shorter/waist-length coat, you're good to go with OCing. Two, you could go the cowboy road and get a second heavy belt with a matching holster and wear both outside your coat. That has the disadvantage of making you need to take the rig off to remove your coat, which isn't very practical if you're going to be sitting down to dinner at Chili's with the family, but I think it seems a little more "presentable" than the thigh rig and it's what I'd do most of the time if concealing weren't an option.

    El Paso Saddlery has some of those rigs for sale, and you can swap out the SAA-style holsters for just about any sort of semi-auto, as those are what most people carry. Still, winter's the time of the year when I realize how much better life must be for folks up in Vermont or Alaska, where their states respect their judgment enough to realize that throwing a coat over their pistols when it's snowing out does not a criminal make, and they don't need to ask permission before they do. To be back in Colorado in 1870...

    Edit - I forgot to address what I do for CCing in winter. What I normally do is wear a full-sized under my coat in a no-retention paddle holster with the front unbuttoned; unless the snow's really coming down or there's a good deal of wind, my jacket is heavy enough to hang closed on its own, and that allows me to throw the jacket open and draw unencumbered. If it's bitter cold or in some other straights that I know I'm going to have my coat buttoned up all day, the coat I have has a "watch pocket" just above the ribline on the left hem of buttons, which also happens to be just large enough for a PPK-sized .380Auto or 9mm to rest. You can get into that pocket with the coat done up and draw, although it's slower than my normal method and the opening is too small to do it wearing gloves.

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    GOOD IDEA! thigh rigs are pretty nice lookin

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    Well since it is winter, what are you doing with ocing??

    I personally just wear a jacket that is not to long and still use me leather holster for my xd. I think a serpa would actually give me a little more room on my hip as that leather holster keeps the weapon really snug against me.

    And to be honest I have used the thigh rig sometimes. When it is really cold or depending on what i was doing.

    So any other ideas or does anyone have any suggestions for this great time of year?

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    rocknsnow wrote:
    Well since it is winter, what are you doing with ocing??

    I personally just wear a jacket that is not to long and still use me leather holster for my xd. I think a serpa would actually give me a little more room on my hip as that leather holster keeps the weapon really snug against me.

    And to be honest I have used the thigh rig sometimes. When it is really cold or depending on what i was doing.

    So any other ideas or does anyone have any suggestions for this great time of year?
    I find a concealed carry permit that gives me the option of concealing to be very helpful in winter weather. (Sorry couldn't resist.)

    My usual winter coat (short of going skiing or sledding) is a Navy style flight jacket that isn't very long anyway. So if I want or need to actually OC (rather than just casually conceal) such as when visiting a Virginia restaurant that serves alcohol as I had the pleasure of doing on business recently (I LOVE that fresh seafood), I simply tuck the waistband of the coat behind my firearm (carried in a paddle hostler) and I'm good to go.

    As others have pointed out, the bigger concern is gloves. Again, short of skiing or sledding I have two suggestions:

    1-Choose gloves that are not very bulky. A decent pair of minimally insulated driving gloves will provide all the protection and comfort typically needed in this part of the world for day to day activities. In a pinch, it is possible to squeeze off a shot while wearing such gloves.

    2-Make sure these gloves do not fit too tightly. Given any opportunity at all to do so, I will remove my right hand glove before access my firearm. If not overly tight, a quick pull with your left hand or your teeth will easily and reliably remove the glove.

    For skiing, sledding, or other activities where thick gloves are needed, make sure that number 2 still applies because you'll have a tough time even getting inside the trigger guard with some gloves and with sledding mitten gauntlets it is downright impossible. And for those conditions, not being a peace officer or military I'd really rather not expose my firearm to the elements anyway and will be carrying either under my snowsuit, in a pack of some kind, or in an external pocket. Back to where I started I'm afraid. I sure like open carry in many cases. But there are also those situations where I like the option to conceal. That is what I love about Utah law. Now if we could just keep those options but drop the requirement for the permit.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    I am currently waiting on my Maine permit at the moment. As I am not 21 yet and they give to those that are 18. So that will help in the instance I choose to cc or it just happens with a coat or something.

    Is is illegal to put it in my pack when I am out in the middle of nowwhere snowmobiling or anything?

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    rocknsnow wrote:
    I am currently waiting on my Maine permit at the moment. As I am not 21 yet and they give to those that are 18. So that will help in the instance I choose to cc or it just happens with a coat or something.

    Is is illegal to put it in my pack when I am out in the middle of nowwhere snowmobiling or anything?
    I see nothing in statute that would prevent Utah from honoring a Maine permit issued to an 18 year old. But I would not want to pay to be a test case. So if you are going to CC on that permit prior to turning 21, I'd suggest you be sure to conceal. I'd avoid
    casually concealing, lest you get asked for the permit and then end up having to defend it. I would also avoid OC at school grounds. At least until you are 21, unless you just have a burning desire to pay to help establish case law on this point.

    I know. It isn't right.

    As for snowmobiling and such, you cannot legally conceal the firearm without a valid permit. Period. However, as long as it is not legally loaded and is not readily accessible (ie securely encased), it can be out of sight and not be considered concealed. Prior to getting a permit I would often keep a gun close at hand by having it legally unloaded and inside fully zipped, soft-sided case.

    I believe that was perfectly legal. But then I never had to test it in front of a judge either.

    Such a case, inside a backpack, or the storage compartment on a sled, is NOT going to win any quick draw awards. But it is still a LOT quicker access than leaving it back in a truck or at home.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    rocknsnow wrote:
    I am currently waiting on my Maine permit at the moment. As I am not 21 yet and they give to those that are 18. So that will help in the instance I choose to cc or it just happens with a coat or something.

    Is is illegal to put it in my pack when I am out in the middle of nowwhere snowmobiling or anything?
    I see nothing in statute that would prevent Utah from honoring a Maine permit issued to an 18 year old. But I would not want to pay to be a test case. So if you are going to CC on that permit prior to turning 21, I'd suggest you be sure to conceal. I'd avoid
    casually concealing, lest you get asked for the permit and then end up having to defend it. I would also avoid OC at school grounds. At least until you are 21, unless you just have a burning desire to pay to help establish case law on this point.

    I know. It isn't right.

    As for snowmobiling and such, you cannot legally conceal the firearm without a valid permit. Period. However, as long as it is not legally loaded and is not readily accessible (ie securely encased), it can be out of sight and not be considered concealed. Prior to getting a permit I would often keep a gun close at hand by having it legally unloaded and inside fully zipped, soft-sided case.

    I believe that was perfectly legal. But then I never had to test it in front of a judge either.

    Such a case, inside a backpack, or the storage compartment on a sled, is NOT going to win any quick draw awards. But it is still a LOT quicker access than leaving it back in a truck or at home.

    Charles
    My thoughts exactly.



    Remember what concealed means.



    Tarzan

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    18-20 with a permit is a legal grey area. There are laws that say it would be OK, and laws that say NOT OK (as I am sure you have found). I do not know if one law holds more power than the other, but I would not want to test it. I have little doubt that if you were not causing any issues then you would only get a slap on the hand, but I know I would not want to risk more. So I would suggest either CC or OC, and avoid casually concealed carry (CCC).

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    I see nothing in statute that would prevent Utah from honoring a Maine permit issued to an 18 year old. But I would not want to pay to be a test case. So if you are going to CC on that permit prior to turning 21, I'd suggest you be sure to conceal.

    The law exempts ANY PERSON with a permit issued by another state. It makes no mention of age.


    76-10-523
    .
    Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following:
    (a) a United States marshal;
    (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
    (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
    (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or
    (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is:
    (i) unloaded; and
    (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501.
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    utbagpiper wrote:
    I see nothing in statute that would prevent Utah from honoring a Maine permit issued to an 18 year old. But I would not want to pay to be a test case. So if you are going to CC on that permit prior to turning 21, I'd suggest you be sure to conceal.

    The law exempts ANY PERSON with a permit issued by another state. It makes no mention of age.


    You are correct. I agree with you. And the other side will be just as correct in arguing the legislature really intended only for adults, 21 and older to carry concealed weapons as evidenced by our own requirements for a permit.

    The law also provides NO REQUIREMENT to conceal if you have a permit. However, we have several law enforcement agencies harrassing people and threatening to arrest them and charge them with various crimes like tresspass or disturbing the peace. We are working to correct this.

    But the sad reality is that so long as there is ANY wiggle room at all (even say legislative intent, or the opinion of some biased lawyer working for the department) it is almost impossible to win any kind of a wrongful arrest award. And you will enjoy the stress and costs of defending against the arrest, very likely having to pay legal bills at least through 1 layer of appeals as local (justice) judges are almost entirely illiterate of the details of the law.

    I, and most others, simply do have $50,000 sitting around to wage a legal battle all the way to the utah supreme court. Not to mention time and wages lost from work, the stress of uncertainty, etc. AND, at any moment, the other side can decide to simply drop the case, denying precedent after having sucked you dry. Very few lawyers are able or willing to take these cases pro bono.


    And I don't like ANY of these facts. A little at a time, as I can, I am working to change these facts in various ways. But until they are changed I prefer others know what they are getting into rather than get blind sided.

    Others will make their own choices. In the majority of cases, I will simply do my best to help them be properly informed of the likely consequences of those choices.

    Unless I had a LOT of money sitting around to pay lawyers, if I were b1ack5mith, I would DEEP conceal (or OC Israeli as if I had no permit) until I was 21. Think SmartCarry or Thunderwear. I'd view the out of state permit as a last ditch, but potentially expensive, get out jail card, rather than a sure bet.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    Unless I had a LOT of money sitting around to pay lawyers, if I were b1ack5mith, I would DEEP conceal (or OC Israeli as if I had no permit) until I was 21.
    This is an open carry forum. I have spoken with b1ack5mith and he has no intentions of concealment. He says that it bothers him when his father conceals. b1ack5mith is applying for a permit so he can legally carry loaded, and not worry about being near a school zone.

    <Awaiting your five paragraph reply> :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    This is an open carry forum. I have spoken with b1ack5mith and he has no intentions of concealment. He says that it bothers him when his father conceals. b1ack5mith is applying for a permit so he can legally carry loaded, and not worry about being near a school zone.

    <Awaiting your five paragraph reply> :P
    His choice. His money and life. I sincerely hope it works out well for him. I won't be shocked it if is a bit more complicated than that and I would think that those contemplating such a potentially life altering decision would be welcoming of honest and sincere information so as to make a fully informed decision. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

    I will note that while I support and enjoy open carry, I am as off put by those who act as if it is the ONLY legitimate way to carry as I am by those who act as if CC is the ONLY legitimate way to carry. My ultimate goal is "Alaska Carry" (without all the off limits locations) in Utah. OC or CC without a permit. Get a permit if you need it for another State (or to comply with school zones).

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    I won't be shocked it if is a bit more complicated than that and I would think that those contemplating such a potentially life altering decision would be welcoming of honest and sincere information so as to make a fully informed decision.
    Worst case scenario is a maximum of 6 months in jail and a $1000 fine. Since when is a class B misdemeanor a life altering decision? Charles, have you ever gotten the impression from an authority figure that any person under the age of 21 may not conceal or carry loaded? Is there some terrible court battle I am unaware of? Utah law clearly exempts permit holders from any state. Should we be worried that it makes no mention of age? What about color? What if a black man with an out of state permit was concealing in Utah?

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Worst case scenario is a maximum of 6 months in jail and a $1000 fine. Since when is a class B misdemeanor a life altering decision? Charles, have you ever gotten the impression from an authority figure that any person under the age of 21 may not conceal or carry loaded? Is there some terrible court battle I am unaware of? Utah law clearly exempts permit holders from any state. Should we be worried that it makes no mention of age? What about color? What if a black man with an out of state permit was concealing in Utah?
    Oh, is THAT all? For most of us, 6 months and $1000 fine, plus a gun related conviction on our record would be a life altering decision. If b1ack5mith wants to be a police officer, lawyer, or ever work in a field that requires a security clearance, such a conviction could throw a wrench in the works.

    I have listened and even been part of legislative hearings and debates where it is clear and stated that only those 21 and older can get a permit and conceal a firearm.
    How many such debates or hearings have YOU ever attended? Until recently I had no concerns that the concealed weapons law made no explicit mention one way or the other about OC. That which is not prohibited is allowed in this nation. Basic principle of American-Anglo law going back some 500 years.

    I AGREE with your view of the law. We are also completely agreed that a person with a permit can legally OC on college property. Our combined opinion and $2.00 will get a bad cup of coffee and not much else.

    I HOPE he has no problems. If he does have problems, I would HOPE that he would prevail in court. But I've come to learn that our courts have NOTHING to with justice and VERY LITTLE to do with the actual law or even facts of the case. (And again, how much time have you spent in court seeing the crap that goes on?)

    It is about egos and win-loss records and who can afford the best attorney and investigators for the longest time period. And the city or county has an endless supply of money for both.

    I am not personally opposed to him OCing. If I had my druthers, any mature child (much less adult 18 or older) would be free to carry a gun OC or CC without being bothered. Make me king for a day (or three) and I'll make it all right. Until then, there are certain areas where I would exercise a bit of caution unless I was willing and anxious for a court fight. That is all I'm saying.

    If he or anyone else wants to be the test case, he has my admiration. For that matter, those with permits who want to be a test case might care to go OC around UVSC or UoU. FAR better to have a nice, well planned, CLEAN case before the court than one that surprises you and the prosecution can make a case for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace because someone was not expecting a problem and so was not prepared with the witnesses, recordings, and personal demeanor needed to prevent spurious extraneous charges. But I will not ignore what I view as potential risks.

    Take my opinion for what they are. But remember that it is not your life nor mine in this case, but b1ack5mith's. So don't blow sunshine up anyone's kilt pretending that age is at all comparable to sex or race in this instance. If you don't know better, you need to study the law a little more so as to understand what are protected categories and what are not.

    I'm not looking for a fight on this. Just offering my opinions and sincere cautions to any who do not want to get caught unawares.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Play nice now boys. I plan to take caution when I get that concealed permit. I don't plan to really push any issues. I have to much on my career and i don't have the cash to play in the courts.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Worst case scenario is a maximum of 6 months in jail and a $1000 fine. Since when is a class B misdemeanor a life altering decision? Charles, have you ever gotten the impression from an authority figure that any person under the age of 21 may not conceal or carry loaded? Is there some terrible court battle I am unaware of? Utah law clearly exempts permit holders from any state. Should we be worried that it makes no mention of age? What about color? What if a black man with an out of state permit was concealing in Utah?
    Oh, is THAT all? For most of us, 6 months and $1000 fine, plus a gun related conviction on our record would be a life altering decision. If b1ack5mith wants to be a police officer, lawyer, or ever work in a field that requires a security clearance, such a conviction could throw a wrench in the works.

    I have listened and even been part of legislative hearings and debates where it is clear and stated that only those 21 and older can get a permit and conceal a firearm.
    How many such debates or hearings have YOU ever attended? Until recently I had no concerns that the concealed weapons law made no explicit mention one way or the other about OC. That which is not prohibited is allowed in this nation. Basic principle of American-Anglo law going back some 500 years.

    I AGREE with your view of the law. We are also completely agreed that a person with a permit can legally OC on college property. Our combined opinion and $2.00 will get a bad cup of coffee and not much else.

    I HOPE he has no problems. If he does have problems, I would HOPE that he would prevail in court. But I've come to learn that our courts have NOTHING to with justice and VERY LITTLE to do with the actual law or even facts of the case. (And again, how much time have you spent in court seeing the crap that goes on?)

    It is about egos and win-loss records and who can afford the best attorney and investigators for the longest time period. And the city or county has an endless supply of money for both.

    I am not personally opposed to him OCing. If I had my druthers, any mature child (much less adult 18 or older) would be free to carry a gun OC or CC without being bothered. Make me king for a day (or three) and I'll make it all right. Until then, there are certain areas where I would exercise a bit of caution unless I was willing and anxious for a court fight. That is all I'm saying.

    If he or anyone else wants to be the test case, he has my admiration. For that matter, those with permits who want to be a test case might care to go OC around UVSC or UoU. FAR better to have a nice, well planned, CLEAN case before the court than one that surprises you and the prosecution can make a case for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace because someone was not expecting a problem and so was not prepared with the witnesses, recordings, and personal demeanor needed to prevent spurious extraneous charges. But I will not ignore what I view as potential risks.

    Take my opinion for what they are. But remember that it is not your life nor mine in this case, but b1ack5mith's. So don't blow sunshine up anyone's kilt pretending that age is at all comparable to sex or race in this instance. If you don't know better, you need to study the law a little more so as to understand what are protected categories and what are not.

    I'm not looking for a fight on this. Just offering my opinions and sincere cautions to any who do not want to get caught unawares.

    Charles


    they made it CLEAR that you must be 21??? then why does maine offer them to people NON RESIDENTS and then why does UT honor their permit??? if they HONOR their permit... then they honor the rules that apply, period. it wouldnt make sence for them to DISHONOR a different states permit when its been voted on already. if i decided to conceal and a cop saw a lump, and asked if i was concealing, id show him my permit and he would know that i was in my right. if you would like, i can talk to my friend who is a nephi police officer, and he would be glad to tell me how he feels

    i plan on opencarrying evenMORE when i get my permit.


    (keyboard is bein a B word, had to fix up a couple things)

  24. #24
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    b1ack5mith wrote:
    i plan on opencarrying evenMORE when i get my permit.
    I wish you all the best and I fully believe you do have the law on your side. I hope you don't have to bankrupt yourself proving it.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Payson, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,146

    Post imported post

    well... if they violate my rights, God help them... you have heard the term "friving is a privalege... not a right" this is just the opposite... and last time i checked, if they violate my RIGHT, theyre screwed lol. thats like a judge ordering someone to NEVER speak another word again... it cant happen. thanks for your support everyone!

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