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Thread: OT This will knock your hat in the creek

  1. #1
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    This is a Petition that is in responce to a soon to be run TV Ad. This ad is supposed to run around Labor day, sorry for the omition.

    http://www.reformus.org/

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    One problem would be defining what an "American" is...right now, it's just about anyone. Here where I am, you've lots of so-called "Americans" on paper, yet you can't tell them from foreigners. IMO, they aren't Americans. Deport them along with the rest.

    Consequently,"citizenship" means just about nothing anymore...VERY much like the Roman Empirein its later years...and the result will be the same.

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    cloudcroft wrote:
    One problem would be defining what an "American" is...right now, it's just about anyone. Here where I am, you've lots of so-called "Americans" on paper, yet you can't tell them from foreigners. IMO, they aren't Americans. Deport them along with the rest.

    Consequently,"citizenship" means just about nothing anymore...VERY much like the Roman Empirein its later years...and the result will be the same.

    -- John D.

    One fear that I have had for some time is that the United States will become a Garbage dump of People rather than a Melting pot of the old days.

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    A hundred years ago in the last days of open immigration, people were making the same complaints - the newest arrivals were always the reviled minority du jour - so this is nothing new really. It's just that the absolute numbers have gotten huge.

    -ljp

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    Legba,

    I concur. My family has been bitching about every batch of newcomers since the 1600s (literaly).

    I personally feel that if someone is willing to walk from South America to get here then they have a better concept of 'work' than a 3rd generation welfare dependent. Our country needs more of the former, less of the later.

    We also need to make them part of our nation, which always takes a generation or two. Given the institutional disincentives to join our nation which are in place I think that an immigration hiatus is in order, just like last time.



    Why did you choose the name of Baba Yaga's rooster for your handle?

    C.

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    I hadn't known of Baba Yaga's rooster being named Legba - odd that Russian/Slavic and Haitian/West African religious legends would become linked (unless it's just a coincidence). No, "Legba" is from a Don Pedro, a 17th century escaped slave from the Dominican Republic, who changed his name to the Frankified "Jean Petro" when he escaped to Haiti. He was a witch-doctor whose Voodoo powers were supposedly so great that he was thought to be an incarnation of the Loa (spirit) Legba, hence Legba Jean Petro. I got all this from a book on Voodoo I read many years ago, and I've used the name as my computer/virtual alter ego since.

    -ljp

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Legba wrote:
    A hundred years ago in the last days of open immigration, people were making the same complaints - the newest arrivals were always the reviled minority du jour - so this is nothing new really. It's just that the absolute numbers have gotten huge.

    -ljp
    You failed to mention that today for the most part these people are Illegal.

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    CPerdue wrote:
    Legba,

    I concur. My family has been bitching about every batch of newcomers since the 1600s (literaly).

    I personally feel that if someone is willing to walk from South America to get here then they have a better concept of 'work' than a 3rd generation welfare dependent. Our country needs more of the former, less of the later.

    We also need to make them part of our nation, which always takes a generation or two. Given the institutional disincentives to join our nation which are in place I think that an immigration hiatus is in order, just like last time.



    Why did you choose the name of Baba Yaga's rooster for your handle?

    C.
    Be careful what you ask for you just might get it then what?

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    Kelly J wrote:
    Legba wrote:
    A hundred years ago in the last days of open immigration, people were making the same complaints - the newest arrivals were always the reviled minority du jour - so this is nothing new really. It's just that the absolute numbers have gotten huge.

    -ljp
    You failed to mention that today for the most part these people are Illegal.
    Well, not explicitly. I meant that the scope of the current situation exists in contradistinction to the open (legal) immigration policy of a century ago.

    -ljp

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    Considering all of the work that it takes to get here and stay here illegally(tunneling, evading the authorities, forging documents, lying, etc.), why not spend less work, experience less heartache and get here legally "with your family"? http://www.visalaw.com/greencard.html



    I know, I know....too much work, eh? 'AND' the people making money off of illegal immigration would be unfairly disadvantaged.





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    cloudcroft wrote:
    One problem would be defining what an "American" is...right now, it's just about anyone. Here where I am, you've lots of so-called "Americans" on paper, yet you can't tell them from foreigners. IMO, they aren't Americans. Deport them along with the rest.
    What does it take to be an American in your eyes?

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    If you have to ask, you're a big part of the problem.

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    I'm trying to be constructive here, and see no reason for you to get so hostile. If someone legally emigrates to this country, how are they not an American? What else is required for them to meet your definition?

    Does a person have to be white?
    Do they have to speak English?
    Do they have to believe in God?

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Legba wrote:
    Kelly J wrote:
    Legba wrote:
    A hundred years ago in the last days of open immigration, people were making the same complaints - the newest arrivals were always the reviled minority du jour - so this is nothing new really. It's just that the absolute numbers have gotten huge.

    -ljp
    You failed to mention that today for the most part these people are Illegal.
    Well, not explicitly. I meant that the scope of the current situation exists in contradistinction to the open (legal) immigration policy of a century ago.

    -ljp
    That makes a world of difference.

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Cue-Ball wrote:
    I'm trying to be constructive here, and see no reason for you to get so hostile. If someone legally emigrates to this country, how are they not an American? What else is required for them to meet your definition?

    Does a person have to be white?

    Do they have to believe in God?


    I am not part of this dispute but I will answer your three questions.

    Does a person have to be white? Absolutely Not!

    Do they have to speak English? Absolutely, as set forth in the Documents of Citizenship, established by the Immigration and Naturalization Documents, These things are required to become a US Citizen.

    Do they have to believe in God? Absolutely, the god of their choice as granted by the First Amendment to the Constitution of these United States.



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    Do they have to speak English? Absolutely, as set forth in the Documents of Citizenship, established by the Immigration and Naturalization Documents, These things are requiredto become a US Citizen.
    I guess I should have worded this differently. Does not speaking English all the time make someone less of an American? For instance, say I emigrate to this country from China. If I know English, I can speak English, and I pledge allegiance to this country, but I choose to speak Chinese, does that make me less of an American?


    Do they have to believe in God? Absolutely, the god of their choice as granted by the First Amendment to the Constitution of these United States.
    Could you please point out to me the text in the Bill of Rights which requires the belief in God?

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

    Free exercise means the right to NOT do something, just as much as the right to do it. I have freedom of speech, but I'm not required to speak. I have freedom of religion, but I'm not required to practice your religion or any religion at all.

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    You could always claim to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if that's easier cue-ball. > )
    -Unrequited

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    unrequited wrote:
    You could always claim to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if that's easier cue-ball. > )
    I guess that's as good a choice as any!

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    Let's not forget that there are lots of Americans who are not yet Citizens, but are working hard towards that goal. Many of them are better Americans than a lot of people who were born here. Check the list of non-Citizens killed in the uniforms of the U.S. Armed Forces for a start. Read your local newspapers about the immigrant who fights off thieves trying to robhis/her buisness. All the casualties of the American revolution (none of whom were technicallyCitizens yet).

    An Americancan be just about anyone.

    ACitizen is one who is ready to give more than they recieve. Even if they recieve nothing... and give everything.

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    I think I may need to define my terms: a country is a geographic place, a nation is a group of people who think they form a unit. This is why we use the word nation in the pledge of allegiance.

    Being part of the American nation means adopting the culture, the core values which make us unique. You don't have to like baseball or apple pie. The language is very important because it lets you get at the writings and thoughts of our founders but is still not essential. To me the most necessary part is really believing that magical phrase from the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    Believing this tells me why I deserve the freedom to own and carry a gun. It also tells me why I must support the fight against tyrants of any size, wherever in the world they may be. It also lets me flip a finger at a snooty European aristocrat or a Chinese racist, yet reminds me to respect the African bushman or middle-eastern goat herder. It is a big idea. Once you get it then I'll call you an American, even if I have to do it in Swahili.

    This is where 'multiculturalism' has to stop. Food, music, festivals, no problem but do NOT tell me I have to respect some inferior, foreign concept of what it means to be a human being.

    BTW, ever stop to think that most of your ancestors would be 'illegals' under today's laws? Seal the borders, ID the people who cross, but don't forget history.

    ***

    28 Aug., bought more ammo for the gun I bought a couple of days ago

    C.

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Cue-Ball wrote:
    Do they have to speak English? Absolutely, as set forth in the Documents of Citizenship, established by the Immigration and Naturalization Documents, These things are requiredto become a US Citizen. To read, speak, and write the English Language is a requirement for Citizenship.
    I guess I should have worded this differently. Does not speaking English all the time make someone less of an American? For instance, say I emigrate to this country from China. If I know English, I can speak English, and I pledge allegiance to this country, but I choose to speak Chinese, does that make me less of an American? Not to a degree but if for instance you are in a work place you should speak English at all times unless you are an interprator, Understand I personally feel that a person should at all times cling to their hearitage it is a part of them and should not be lost.

    Do they have to believe in God? Absolutely, the god of their choice as granted by the First Amendment to the Constitution of these United States.
    Could you please point out to me the text in the Bill of Rights which requires the belief in God? My reference to the use of Absolutely was not ment to imply that it was a requirement but only to emphisize the freedom of ones Religious Beliefs, and that they are a protected right, as you have indicated by your quotation below.
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

    Free exercise means the right to NOT do something, just as much as the right to do it. I have freedom of speech, but I'm not required to speak. I have freedom of religion, but I'm not required to practice your religion or any religion at all. Again you are correct 100%, so on this we are in an agreement, I sometimes get in a hurry and don't choose my wording as carefully as I should and rereading it really doesn't help at times because of the passion of the thought process, I ask your indulgence.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    PavePusher wrote:
    Let's not forget that there are lots of Americans who are not yet Citizens, but are working hard towards that goal. Many of them are better Americans than a lot of people who were born here. Check the list of non-Citizens killed in the uniforms of the U.S. Armed Forces for a start. Read your local newspapers about the immigrant who fights off thieves trying to robhis/her buisness. All the casualties of the American revolution (none of whom were technicallyCitizens yet).

    An Americancan be just about anyone.

    ACitizen is one who is ready to give more than they recieve. Even if they recieve nothing... and give everything.
    Amen to that, and I believe you will also find them to be a whole lot more Patriotic.

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    Free exercise means the right to NOT do something, just as much as the right to do it. I have freedom of speech, but I'm not required to speak. I have freedom of religion, but I'm not required to practice your religion or any religion at all. Again you are correct 100%, so on this we are in an agreement, I sometimes get in a hurry and don't choose my wording as carefully as I should and rereading it really doesn't help at times because of the passion of the thought process, I ask your indulgence.


    Whew! For a minute there I thought I wasn't an American anymore, and then I would have felt silly wearing this uniform and all.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Lew wrote:
    Free exercise means the right to NOT do something, just as much as the right to do it. I have freedom of speech, but I'm not required to speak. I have freedom of religion, but I'm not required to practice your religion or any religion at all. Again you are correct 100%, so on this we are in an agreement, I sometimes get in a hurry and don't choose my wording as carefully as I should and rereading it really doesn't help at times because of the passion of the thought process, I ask your indulgence.


    Whew! For a minute there I thought I wasn't an American anymore, and then I would have felt silly wearing this uniform and all.
    Hey Man never feel silly or like you made a mistakeputting on the Uniform, you made the right choice, and we respect you for doing it, thank you for your Service, and if you are deployed be safe, and come home when the job is done, and always hold your head up high forthe service you hav gave, or given, it is an Honor to serve.

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Lew wrote:
    Free exercise means the right to NOT do something, just as much as the right to do it. I have freedom of speech, but I'm not required to speak. I have freedom of religion, but I'm not required to practice your religion or any religion at all. Again you are correct 100%, so on this we are in an agreement, I sometimes get in a hurry and don't choose my wording as carefully as I should and rereading it really doesn't help at times because of the passion of the thought process, I ask your indulgence.


    Whew! For a minute there I thought I wasn't an American anymore, and then I would have felt silly wearing this uniform and all.
    Hey Man never feel silly or like you made a mistakeputting on the Uniform, you made the right choice, and we respect you for doing it, thank you for your Service, and if you are deployed be safe, and come home when the job is done, and always hold your head up high forthe service you hav gave, or given, it is an Honor to serve.

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