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Thread: Asked to leave walmart last night

  1. #1
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    Amanda and I rode up with Skidmark to norfolk for the VCDL city council meeting, we met and left amandas car there. So upon getting back into town, we walked into walmart, still OCing of course. A security gaurd looked at us funny when walking by, but said nothing. We had to goto the back of the store to use the restrooms,and had decided to pick up some dinner supplies. So after I did my thing,I was waiting right outside the restroom when approached by said security guard..he was unarmed, I didn't see a can of pepper spray on the poor man. He was clearly indimidated...

    Gaurd: umm...er... sir..(stepping back)
    ME:yes?
    Gaurd:umm we umm need you to leave..
    ME: Why?
    Gaurd: umm *looks at gun*
    ME: Sure, just show me where its posted on your front door?
    Gaurd: er, well its not,...but uhh neither is uh 711 or the courthouse
    ME: I've carried in 711,and this isn't federal or state property
    Gaurd: *backing up to use the radio*
    ME: *stepping forward along with gaurd*
    Gaurd: I carry too....
    ME: clearly not, otherwise you wouldn't be attempting to strip me of my civil rights, and you'd be carrying now

    By that point we were out by the front door, I asked for his business card, he said he didn't have one. He identified himself as "Edward". Edward was roughly 5' 9", black male, in his late 30s/early-mid 40s, with a mustache. Thin to medium build. His hat simply said "Securitas".

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    Ghettokracker71 wrote:
    Amanda and I rode up with Skidmark to norfolk for the VCDL city council meeting, we met and left amandas car there. So upon getting back into town, we walked into walmart, still OCing of course. A security gaurd looked at us funny when walking by, but said nothing. We had to goto the back of the store to use the restrooms,and had decided to pick up some dinner supplies. So after I did my thing,I was waiting right outside the restroom when approached by said security guard..he was unarmed, I didn't see a can of pepper spray on the poor man. He was clearly indimidated...

    Gaurd: umm...er... sir..(stepping back)
    ME:yes?
    Gaurd:umm we umm need you to leave..
    ME: Why?
    Gaurd: umm *looks at gun*
    ME: Sure, just show me where its posted on your front door?
    Gaurd: er, well its not,...but uhh neither is uh 711 or the courthouse
    ME: I've carried in 711,and this isn't federal or state property
    Gaurd: *backing up to use the radio*
    ME: *stepping forward along with gaurd*
    Gaurd: I carry too....
    ME: clearly not, otherwise you wouldn't be attempting to strip me of my civil rights, and you'd be carrying now

    By that point we were out by the front door, I asked for his business card, he said he didn't have one. He identified himself as "Edward". Edward was roughly 5' 9", black male, in his late 30s/early-mid 40s, with a mustache. Thin to medium build. His hat simply said "Securitas".
    I am wondering if he asked management about it or if he was given a direct order to eject OCers.

    He did use the word "We"

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Ghettokracker71 wrote:
    Amanda and I rode up with Skidmark to norfolk for the VCDL city council meeting, we met and left amandas car there. So upon getting back into town, we walked into walmart, still OCing of course. A security gaurd looked at us funny when walking by, but said nothing. We had to goto the back of the store to use the restrooms,and had decided to pick up some dinner supplies. So after I did my thing,I was waiting right outside the restroom when approached by said security guard..he was unarmed, I didn't see a can of pepper spray on the poor man. He was clearly indimidated...

    Gaurd: umm...er... sir..(stepping back)
    ME:yes?
    Gaurd:umm we umm need you to leave..
    ME: Why?
    Gaurd: umm *looks at gun*
    ME: Sure, just show me where its posted on your front door?
    Gaurd: er, well its not,...but uhh neither is uh 711 or the courthouse
    ME: I've carried in 711,and this isn't federal or state property
    Gaurd: *backing up to use the radio*
    ME: *stepping forward along with gaurd*
    Gaurd: I carry too....
    ME: clearly not, otherwise you wouldn't be attempting to strip me of my civil rights, and you'd be carrying now

    By that point we were out by the front door, I asked for his business card, he said he didn't have one. He identified himself as "Edward". Edward was roughly 5' 9", black male, in his late 30s/early-mid 40s, with a mustache. Thin to medium build. His hat simply said "Securitas".
    I am wondering if he asked management about it or if he was given a direct order to eject OCers.

    He did use the word "We"
    At one point I did ask him for funish documentation that says I'm not allowed to. He could,of course, not do so.

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    I do feel bad for the guy who is there to prevent problems and has no tools on his bat belt..

    Give the man a canof mace!!

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    This happened to me as well at the Short Pump wal-mart.

    ALWAYS ask to speak to the manager before you are removed from the store. I got the managers contact info, and I reported it to Walmart corporate. Haven't had a problem there since.

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    Ghettokracker71 wrote:
    Gaurd: er, well its not,...but uhh neither is uh 711 or the courthouse
    ME: I've carried in 711,and this isn't federal or state property
    Gaurd: *backing up to use the radio*
    ME: *stepping forward along with gaurd*
    Gaurd: I carry too....
    ME: clearly not, otherwise you wouldn't be attempting to strip me of my civil rights, and you'd be carrying now
    I'm sorry to break this to you, but you don't have the right to carry, open or concealed, on private property, and no signs are required to be posted if they do choose to prohibit them. In fact, a sign has no real legal standing, because it's so easy to not see one. But if you are asked to leave by someone representing the store, and don't, you can be charged with trespassing.

    Your best bet in a situation like that is to politely ask if you can speak with the manager about it before leaving and hope you can sway him. Since Walmart, like any other store, is private property, being confrontational just guarantees that they won't reconsider their position. Besides, the security guard isn't the one setting policies, so there's no real benefit in being rude to him. If the manager says "they need to leave", he has two choices: tell you you need to leave, or find another job.

    and this isn't federal or state property
    I'd really like to flag this one. Yes, it's a crime to carry on federal property. However, there is no such global ban for state property.

    Simple breakdown:

    Carry on federal property - enjoy your time in jail
    Carry on private property after being asked/told to leave - enjoy your time in jail
    Carry on state property - in most cases, you are just fine.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I do feel bad for the guy who is there to prevent problems and has no tools on his bat belt..

    Give the man a canof mace!!
    It's even more sad when it's some kid that doesn't look like he's old enough to drink, and probably weighs 150-160 max.

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    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    In fact, a sign has no real legal standing, because it's so easy to not see one.
    I submit that, without statute law to the contrary, this extends to no-guns signs and no trespassing signs, constructive and/or effective notice is an element of the crime of trespassing.

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    Ghettokracker71 wrote:
    ...
    Gaurd: *backing up to use the radio*
    ME: *stepping forward along with gaurd*
    ...
    Interesting move. Asserting your space? Showing him you got game?

    Dancing?

    LOL.



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    Carry on federal property - enjoy your time in jail
    Carry on private property after being asked/told to leave - enjoy your time in jail
    You can open carry onlot of federal property - e.g., forest service lands, some military lands, etc.

    On private property, criminal tresspass usually is triggered only by (1) entering land where conspicuously prohibited (not entering the land and breaking a rule), and (2) refusing the owner's or his agent's order to LEAVE (not an order to cease breaking a rule).

    A lot of allegedly pro-gun people get this mixed up.

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    Mike wrote:
    On private property, criminal tresspass usually is triggered only by (1) entering land where conspicuously prohibited (not entering the land and breaking a rule), and (2) refusing the owner's or his agent's order to LEAVE (not an order to cease breaking a rule).
    IANAL I respectfully disagree. A crime ('criminal trespass') can only be charged by the state. With some exceptions, an officer of the court must witness the offense. A crime must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Not seeing a no-tresspassing sign is an effective defense. Again, constructive notice must be made. IANAL

    I am a touring bicyclist that has practiced and 'studied' guerilla-camping - intentional, mens rea, trespassing. I am a landowner that can't keep trespassers off my property even with signs, fences and the assistance of the town administration and town cop.

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    I have OC'ed dozens of times at that Wal-mart and I can think of 3 specific times when the security guard has walked right by me and smiled - he would have to be sleepwalking to miss the large frame revolver on my hip.

    No offense but I think you may have been asked to leave because of your appearance. I am by no means saying that I think you should change. But unfortunately some people (like that security guard) will always judge you based on how you dress, or in the case of Danbus - the color of your skin.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    In fact, a sign has no real legal standing, because it's so easy to not see one.
    I submit that, without statute law to the contrary, this extends to no-guns signs and no trespassing signs, constructive and/or effective notice is an element of the crime of trespassing.
    What it comes down to is this....

    You see a sign that says no guns... expect to be asked to leave. Thelast thing the storewill want to do is charge you with and have to spend time in court.

    If your asked to leave for any reason.... Go!! Once they tell you to go and you don't... you can be charged.

    You can always file a complaint with the corporate office later from home. Your not going to get anywhere trying to prove a point at the store.

    The big debate is "What if a sign is displayed... Can I be charged with trespassing?" I would have to say YES!

    The sign clearly says your not wanted there if you have a gun. I would hate to see anyone be charged and have to pay for a lawyer to prove otherwise.



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    HankT wrote:
    Ghettokracker71 wrote:
    ...
    Gaurd: *backing up to use the radio*
    ME: *stepping forward along with gaurd*
    ...
    Interesting move. Asserting your space? Showing him you got game?

    Dancing?

    LOL.

    Lol I should explain this one better. The gaurd stepped back and around the corner(sp) so he could call his 'backup' or something? Thats why I stepped forward to see what was up?

    I realize that if I am asked to leave, I can be charged,wich is why I had almost immediately started walking towars the door. Lol I was in a fiesty mood.

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    Mike wrote:
    Carry on federal property - enjoy your time in jail
    Carry on private property after being asked/told to leave - enjoy your time in jail
    You can open carry onlot of federal property - e.g., forest service lands, some military lands, etc.
    Good point. Living in Hampton Roads, and growing up outside of DC, I tend to forget that there are some types of federal property where you won't land in jail for carrying.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    In fact, a sign has no real legal standing, because it's so easy to not see one.
    I submit that, without statute law to the contrary, this extends to no-guns signs and no trespassing signs, constructive and/or effective notice is an element of the crime of trespassing.
    If your asked to leave for any reason.... Go!! Once they tell you to go and you don't... you can be charged.

    The big debate is "What if a sign is displayed... Can I be charged with trespassing?" I would have to say YES!
    The store cannot 'charge' and the trespasser can always cure the trespass unless they are restrained, likely comitting an assault/battery.

    The conspiracy of ignorance only masquerades as common sense.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    vtme_grad98 wrote:
    In fact, a sign has no real legal standing, because it's so easy to not see one.
    I submit that, without statute law to the contrary, this extends to no-guns signs and no trespassing signs, constructive and/or effective notice is an element of the crime of trespassing.
    If your asked to leave for any reason.... Go!! Once they tell you to go and you don't... you can be charged.

    The big debate is "What if a sign is displayed... Can I be charged with trespassing?" I would have to say YES!
    The store cannot 'charge' and the trespasser can always cure the trespass unless they are restrained, likely comitting an assault/battery.

    The conspiracy of ignorance only masquerades as common sense.
    Actually... As a store owner ifI tell you to go and you do not.. I can get a warrant for your arrest. All I need is your info and the police can obtain that for me.

    Traditionally... the police will not arrest you if you leave in their presence or you have gone before they arrive. But the store.. just like anyone else... can seeka warrant to have you arrested on their own.

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    § 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-173; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1982, c. 169; 1987, cc. 625, 705; 1991, c. 534; 1998, cc. 569, 684.)

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    § 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-173; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1982, c. 169; 1987, cc. 625, 705; 1991, c. 534; 1998, cc. 569, 684.)
    Man I'm sick of reading code, and case law, But I would have to agree with this.

    If asked to leave, then just leave. Getting the name of the person asking you will help if you intend to take it up with management or corp. But I would not stay past my welcome. Although, knowing me, I would be arguing the facts all the way out the door .

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    The conspiracy of common sense only masquerades as ignorance.

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    As I stated in the beggining, I was in the rear of the store. I was leaving during a large part of conversation.

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    Ghettokracker71 wrote:
    As I stated in the beggining, I was in the rear of the store. I was leaving during a large part of conversation.
    Cannot fault you for that.... You were leaving.

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    Yeah, I admit I did get fired up more than I should, being my first confrontation, my adreline started rushing. I kept thinking what if Chesterfield county shows up and harrasses me,or tryes to arrest me. What if he trys to spray me with mace, or cals for backup...etc...

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    I OCed in the same store on the 19th. I was there eary in the morning, around 6:30. Walked past the security guard with no problem.



    Goliath

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