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Thread: Alma Police

  1. #1
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    At the annual festival in Alma this summer I was OC'ing with my family of six. We go each year and have a nice time at the small fair they have at one of the highest towns in North America.

    All of Alma's police officers were in attendance and everything at the fair seemed to be going well. I did notice that they all walked by me a lot and a couple even exchanged a "hello" once or twice. After about an hour of walking around buying gifts for the family and some decent food, the Alma police chief walked up with one of his deputies in attendance.

    The conversation started with introductions and then he mentioned my firearm. He said that he was going to make a request and that he understood that if I didn't care to comply he would just turn around and walk away, knowing that it was my right to OC. So, he asked if I could conceal it while at the fair. I only thought about it for a second and told him I appreciated his attitude and since he was so polite about it, I'd be glad to. I walked back to my car, got my SmartCarry holster and returned to the fair. The chief seemed pleased and I expressed my appreciation for his knowledge of the law and his politeness in the matter. His concern he said was he didn't want all of his locals to go home and bring their shotguns back to the fair just because they could!

    Interestingly, after all this, the deputy was very vocal in his support of the 2nd Amendment and my right to carry here in CO. Seeing as these guys were so polite and knowledgeable about it, I had no problem working with them.

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    Izod wrote:
    Interestingly, after all this, the deputy was very vocal in his support of the 2nd Amendment and my right to carry here in CO. Seeing as these guys were so polite and knowledgeable about it, I had no problem working with them.
    This is the kind of stuff that gives cops a power trip.. and a 6 foot woody.

    I admit that I have shown an officer my CHP when OC'ing to provide "ID & VALIDATION", and after less than a minute, I was on my way, still OC'ing!

    Remember, the police use "politeness" to get alot of things.. searches without warrants, confessions, obscuring rights.

    So next time the "police officer is being so polite", remember that he uses that "department trained charm" to search your car at the DUI checkpoint. The constitution is on a slow burn.

    The only time the police are your friends are when you're paying them for off-duty work, and only they clock-out, they are no longer your friends.

  3. #3
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    After checking a map I wasn't to far from you. Some friends and me went up to the duck races in Breckenridge Saturday. I let my shirt hang over my owb holster most of the time, but it wasn't realy concealed. Still, I had no problems.

    psmartin wrote:
    Izod wrote:
    Interestingly, after all this, the deputy was very vocal in his support of the 2nd Amendment and my right to carry here in CO. Seeing as these guys were so polite and knowledgeable about it, I had no problem working with them.
    This is the kind of stuff that gives cops a power trip.. and a 6 foot woody.

    I admit that I have shown an officer my CHP when OC'ing to provide "ID & VALIDATION", and after less than a minute, I was on my way, still OC'ing!

    Remember, the police use "politeness" to get alot of things.. searches without warrants, confessions, obscuring rights.

    So next time the "police officer is being so polite", remember that he uses that "department trained charm" to search your car at the DUI checkpoint. The constitution is on a slow burn.

    The only time the police are your friends are when you're paying them for off-duty work, and only they clock-out, they are no longer your friends.
    Seems like a rather harsh and sweeping statement. Granted, that's true of some leo's, but then that is true of all people. The best thing I have found is to remember that cops are people like you and me, and policing is just another job ike your's and mine. It just happens to be a rather unpopular one. Out of all my encounters with cops (a dozen or so), only once have I had one where I could even remotely call it a power trip, and that was last night. (see my post in this forum)

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    Given the level of politeness, I wonder if it wasn't a public relations coup to go along. They're cops, but their still people. A little tactful diplomacy can go a long ways towardsadjusting attitudes.

    It may not have been planned but I think the OP possibly scored big.

    The tricky part will be gently shifting the Chief's attitude further towards supporting 2A.

    As the old saying goes, "A man convinced against his will is of his former opinion still."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member UtahRSO's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    ....Polite or not, his intent was to charm you into surrendering your right. Absent that, things may have turned out differently, MUCH differently....
    Of course he was polite. He wanted you to conceal your firearm. But you didn't "surrender" your right. He recognized your right, as you said, and made a request. That you CHOSE to do as he requested is not surrender.

    Which of us hasn't tried to persuade someone to do something different than they are doing, or intend to do? Which of us hasn't been polite as we made the request?

    And as for "things may have turned out... MUCH differently," I doubt that, from what you've told us.

    M. E. Marchiafava has a real hate going for law enforcement, doestn't he?

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    "Law enforcement" attracts bullies. It's just that simple. Polite or not, his intent was to charm you into surrendering your right. Absent that, things may have turned out differently, MUCH differently. The truth IS a "harsh and sweeping statement." As the bible teaches, the truth offends. So be it. Cops may be like YOU, but I can assure you, I'd NEVER be a part of ANY group of people who regularly violate others, all in the name of "public safety." I can't speak for you, but my job never requires me to violate another. Quite the contrary, to earn a living I must PLEASE and SATISFY my customer. Just what kind of job do YOU have that requires the use of force against someone's will? There's a damned good reason it's an unpopular job: they regularly wrong others. Gee, go figure. Since I've probably had more encounters with cops than just about anyone on THIS or any other forum, I can honestly say only a HANDFUL of encounters were not "power trips." Many persons have suggested I write a book about everything I've experienced. Maybe such a book would reverse your opinion about cops.
    I am curious. If you are required to satisfy your customers, what will you do when one of them asks you to remove your firearm or to conceal it? Not sure if you carry at work, but expand the question to on and off work.

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    Izod wrote:
    His concern he said was he didn't want all of his locals to go home and bring their shotguns back to the fair just because they could!
    Why not? Does he not trust the locals? I think that would be the safest fair in the state.

  8. #8
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    Izod wrote:
    He said that he was going to make a request and that he understood that if I didn't care to comply he would just turn around and walk away, knowing that it was my right to OC. So, he asked if I could conceal it while at the fair. I only thought about it for a second and told him I appreciated his attitude and since he was so polite about it, I'd be glad to. I walked back to my car, got my SmartCarry holster and returned to the fair. The chief seemed pleased and I expressed my appreciation for his knowledge of the law and his politeness in the matter. His concern he said was he didn't want all of his locals to go home and bring their shotguns back to the fair just because they could!
    Hey, it was your call. You had total control. You thought, then acted.I think you done good.

    You probably raised the image of the OCer a bit with what you did and how you did it what with your acting all reasonable and such. Good luck in your future OCing.



  9. #9
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    Izod wrote:
    The conversation started with introductions and then he mentioned my firearm. He said that he was going to make a request and that he understood that if I didn't care to comply he would just turn around and walk away, knowing that it was my right to OC. So, he asked if I could conceal it while at the fair.
    Why do they make a such request or offer their unsolicited opinions?

    I would have thanked them for their concern, wished them a good day, and went about my business as if nothing had been said.

    If I have done nothing illegal and presented myself as a peaceful citizen, there is no reason a peace officer should be making contact with me. Because of their occupation, I have no interest in engaging them in conversation, idle chit chat, or so much as discussion of the weather. If they want to be my 'friend', they will have to approach me as an equal, not a subject of the state.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    I'm in the same boat as Hank on this one. I know how cops can turn on the charm or have you lulled into a swift sequence of "yes, of course" questions to get you to consent to a warrantless search. If I were in a situation where a cop were using a friendly tone to back me into a place where it was "we're doing it my way and my way is concealing," I'd call him on his friendly-toned bluff and tell him to pound salt before walking away. Your situation, however, sounds to me like it's a normal guy doing a tough job, and I wouldn't have a problem with making his job a little easier. I'd never go defenseless for the comfort of others, nor follow a sugar-coated "order," but this time it seemed like the thing to do with all things considered.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Since most posters here seem to have a secret love of fascism, I don't expect anyone to understand. It's just too much for ya. Hate? Naw, just a healthy dose of well-founded mistrust, based on decades of firsthand experience. Who knows? Maybe 30 years from now, after you've had some real hands on experience, what I couldn't teach you, you'll learn for yourself.
    Or maybe in 30 years I continue to have very little to do with the police, and continue to think that they are for the most part good guys with jobs no-one else likes.

  12. #12
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    Izod wrote:
    The conversation started with introductions and then he mentioned my firearm. He said that he was going to make a request and that he understood that if I didn't care to comply he would just turn around and walk away, knowing that it was my right to OC. So, he asked if I could conceal it while at the fair.
    Why do they make a such request or offer their unsolicited opinions?

    I would have thanked them for their concern, wished them a good day, and went about my business as if nothing had been said.

    If I have done nothing illegal and presented myself as a peaceful citizen, there is no reason a peace officer should be making contact with me. Because of their occupation, I have no interest in engaging them in conversation, idle chit chat, or so much as discussion of the weather. If they want to be my 'friend', they will have to approach me as an equal, not a subject of the state.
    I don't consider all LEO's my sworn enemy. In fact, I know several police officers and have reason to believe most are not only human beings but defenders of the Bill of Rights. That being said, I do my best to not cut anyone any slack when it comes to the Bill of Rights. I have my limits. Warrantless searches are at the top of the list.

    In the case of the Alma Festival, the Police Chief was up front with me that OC was perfectly within my rights and if I insisted on doing so, he would turn around and walk away. Then, by politely asking me to conceal, well, I'm glad to help a guy trying to do his job. ESPECIALLY since he wasn't disarming me, just asking me to conceal.

    And, for all the bluster about what you would or wouldn't do...at least I have a round in the chamber at all times, unlike those in Shasta County, CA!!

    I'm glad to see everyone here trying to find ways to USE their rights so we don't LOSE our rights. Keep up the good work.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    "...........and if I insisted on doing so, he would turn around and walk away."

    And you believe that?
    Yes. I do. This is one of those quirky things about being a human. All the subtleties of the situation when you are there, face to face. I suppose it's one of those "you had to be there" sort of things. It's one reason why good military commanders let the "on-scene" commander make the decisions once the overall objective has been briefed. My Rights were never threatened so why give the Chief a hard time?

    You are, unfortunately, at a disadvantage since you only have my written report to go on. If you'd been there, you might have come to the same conclusion I did about the next step to take.
    (And remember, for those from Shasta County, CA, I had a round in the chamber and a full magazine in the weapon the whole time. ;-) )



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    A little co-operation goes a long, long way.

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    Yes, co-operation DOES go a long, long way. If the chief asked, why not comply. If he demanded, well, that is another story. By the way, I have been in Lousiana. and no way am I going back. There is where you run into red necked peckerwood leo's. I'll stick to Colorado, thank you very much

    Colorado slick

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    No long-term harm in granting the public servant's request, I think.Cooperation can always be rescinded.

    Depending on my mood, if somebody said they didn't want all the locals to go get their shotguns, I might have replied, "So what's wrong with that?" Or, "Great!! Let me set up a skeet concession, I'll split half with the County!"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I am no cop lover, and I have had my share of encounters over the years. Ask anyone who knows me, I am the last guy to defend a cop. But if you suspect that a cop's politeness is just a way to get you to comply, while they secretly harbor evil intent in their hearts, well then what are they supposed to act like? Are they just supposed to be total jerks all the time? I mean the cops demeanor sets the tone for the entire encounter in my opinion. If he shows me respect, I will show him respect. If he is a d#@k, then I am going to be a d#@k right back at him. Except in extreme cases, I expect LEO's to be polite and professional. I know they can use that against you, but to make a sweeping statement that whenever a cop is nice to you, that they are just setting you up is just lame. If we can't expect them to be polite, then we must expect them to be rude all the time. I'd rather not live in that world.

    back to the OP, i think you did what was right for you, but I wouldn't have complied. But that's just me.

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