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Thread: Muggings

  1. #1
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    In PA what's the best way to deal with getting mugged while open/concealed carrying a firearm? If the mugger just wants my wife's purse, for example, what should I do to be on the safer legal side of things?

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    mf wrote:
    In PA what's the best way to deal with getting mugged while open/concealed carrying a firearm? If the mugger just wants my wife's purse, for example, what should I do to be on the safer legal side of things?
    In order to better answer the question, I think we'll first need to know whether said mugger has a weapon.

    Also, when you say "just wants my wife's purse", you're implying that it's fairly insignificant. However, a stolen purse could very well lead to years of ruined credit and hundreds of hours on the phone and filling out forms to restore your identity, as a purse would contain enough to enable a good deal of identity theft. Not to mention that if your wife carries any sort of address book in her purse, said criminal would have names and addresses of all of your friends and family... not a good situation in any way.

    Not to mention it would have to be a rather stupid mugger to attempt anything on someone in the company of an OCer...

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    mf - you need to supply more assumptions for your scenario.

    Is the mugger armed with a deadly weapon? If it is only a knife, is he within 20 feet of you? If he has a gun, is it pointed at you or your wife? What did the mugger say or do to indicate he wanted your wife's purse?

    How big is the mugger? How big are you? (Is there a large disparity in size, age, physical fitness?)

    Are you with your wife who is holding the purse?

    Have you been taken by surprise or were you able to grip your concealed spurless revolver in a coat pocket and can point it at the threat before you were accosted? (In other words you can shoot through your clothing and stop the threat.)

    Do you feel that you were in imminent danger of losing life or limb?

    Can you and your wifesimply drop the purse andrun away or are you trapped?

    If you are OC'ing, has the mugger somehow not seen your pistol because your gunside is turned away from the mugger?

    How much training have you had? Can you do a sidestep anddraw your pistol and put two rounds in the threat's center of mass or cranio-ocular cavity in less than two seconds?

    I am not a lawyer, but if I had to shoot someone to defend myself, I would be mentally prepared to call 911 immediately if there were a lot of witnesses around, or quickly depart the area if there were no other witnesses. My second phone call would be to a lawyer to be prepared to defend myself from a wrongful death suit and/or criminal prosecution. You have the right to remain silent. If the police came after such a self-defense shooting, I would say that upon the advice of counsel, I do not have a statement to make at this time and then I would shut up because even the most innocuous statements (such as "I'm so sorry I had to kill this guy.") can be taken out of context and twisted by a prosecutor or tort attorney. Cross-racial shootings are notorious for these sort of legal problems for law-abiding gun owners who have to engage in deadly force.

    If you are really interested in this subject, read anything written by Massad Ayoob and mail yourself a note that you read such and such books on X Date. Thus you will have proof of knowledge of certain tenets of self-defense shootings such as the 21-foot rule for knifemen. (A physically fit man with a knife can cover 21 feet and stab you to death in less than two seconds. Two seconds is the average time it takes to draw and fire two shots. So if someone threatens to stab you, has a knife in their hand, andis in decent physical condition and less than 7 yards away, deadly force is justified to neutralize this deadly threat.)

    See article by Massad Ayoob http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...36/ai_11549909

    Explaining the deadly force decision: the opportunity factor



    Anyway, best wishes to you and hope you never have to engage in death battle with a mugger or home invader.

  4. #4
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    Sorry for my short initial post lacking detail.

    Let's say I'm OCing here, and the mugger is slightly smaller than me, armed with an electonic stun gun (him being 25 feet away), which would be a non-lethal weapon, and we're in the open--my wife is unable to outrun this man.

    I know that the stungun itself would not be a deadly weapon, so even if he charged us with it, I'm not sure I could legally shoot him. Further, in PA would the purse have to be given to the mugger?

    Section 505, title 18(2)(ii) reads,

    Code:
    (ii)  the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity
    of using such force with complete safety by retreating or
    by surrendering possession of a thing to a person
    asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a
    demand that he abstain from any action which he has no
    duty to take, except that:
    (A)  the actor is not obliged to retreat from his
    dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial
    aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by
    another person whose place of work the actor knows it
    to be; and
    (B)  a public officer justified in using force in
    the performance of his duties or a person justified
    in using force in his assistance or a person
    justified in using force in making an arrest or
    preventing an escape is not obliged to desist from
    efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or
    prevent such escape because of resistance or
    threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person
    against whom such action is directed.
    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...5.005.000..HTM

    So, it sounds like, at least at first, that I could not stand my ground here and the purse would have to be given to the robber?

    Let's say that the purse was given to the robber, and then my wife and I run away, and the mugger begins to run after us, what's the best thing to do?

    Sorry if this sounds ridiculous. :?

  5. #5
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    First off, there is no truly non-lethal weapon. Once again, I'm no lawyer, but if it were me, any device that is capable of incapacitating me I view as a threat, as while I'm incapacitated, I will be defenseless to whatever said mugger chooses to do.

    Overall, there really is no good answer for what to do in a situation like this. I could tell you what I'd do, but I don't want to leave a public record that could be used against me in the future.

    If you shoot said mugger, you're avoiding a potentially deadly situation, as there's no assurance that giving a purse would satisfy the mugger. You'll also be charged with manslaughter, and have to make a case for self-defense. But, you and your wife will be alive and well, so you have to decide if you'd rather spend time in a 6-foot cell or 6-feet under. Under the current bullsh!t PA law, ultimately you have to decide if, for you, risking jail time is worth your and your wife's wellness. It's a sad reality, but a reality nonetheless.

  6. #6
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    At twenty-five feet away, can you be absolutely sure, bet your life on it, that it is indeed a stun gun? If your life, or your wife's life, is at risk, I'm sure it certainly looked like a gun to you.

  7. #7
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    mf wrote:
    Code:
    (ii) the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity
    of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:
    IANAL. Delaware has a similar statute and my CCW instructor made much of this paragraph. his points:

    1. the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession (if the armedmugger says "give me your wallet and I won't kill you" ...can you know he's telling the truth? of course an armed mugger would never tell a lie!!)

    2. by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto the mugger isn't asserting a "claim of right" he says something like "give me your wallet" or "give me the wallet" he isn't claiming itwas his in the first place

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    Shoot the bastard! Then he can't sue.

    Seriously folks, A robber works by threatening deadly force. It is my job to protect my wife from a felon attemping deadly force.

    Here is how it works. You accost me and the wife, demand something or else, I am not going to stop and analyze whether you actually are serious about harming us.
    You theaten, I shoot. I'll worry about the rest afterward.

    P.S. I'll still be alive.

  9. #9
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    Shoot the bastard! Then he can't sue.
    Follow that up with immediately filing a civil action against the deceased's estate (even if he/she/it doesn't really have one) claiming emotional distress, loss of income, possible stress-related medical injuries, and the cost of the bullet used to dispatch the ne'er-do-well. That will stop the deceased's next-of-kin from suing you for whatever they can dream up.

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    Neobayer wrote:
    Shoot the bastard! Then he can't sue.

    Seriously folks, A robber works by threatening deadly force. It is my job to protect my wife from a felon attemping deadly force.

    Here is how it works. You accost me and the wife, demand something or else, I am not going to stop and analyze whether you actually are serious about harming us.
    You theaten, I shoot. I'll worry about the rest afterward.

    P.S. I'll still be alive.
    Personally, I would avoid making statements like that. While your intentions are very good, if a situation like you described ever happened to you, I'm not sure that a prosecuter couldn't use postings like that to prove premeditation and such... In an age where everything is tracked, I now try to avoid posting anything that could be used against me in court.

    I'm not trying to act condescending or anything, just trying to help out a fellow OCer in the future...

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    I can give an example of a case that I have knowledge of. A man I know, was at a gun auction in Texas,with a sizeale amount of cash.It was evening and heleft the auction without buying anything. On his way home he pulled his truck into a Qwik Trip to get a cup of coffee. As he got out of his truck, a robber stepped around the front of his truck and shot him in the chest at point blank range with a 9mm. Luckily, the intended victim was wearing light weight body armor. The impact knocked him down but he was able to draw a 45 auto and got off a shot that blew out the perp's knee. Police arrived and arrested the perp who had a criminal record as long as your arm. He was convicted and sent to prison. Now for the worst part. While is prison the perp filed a civil law suit for maiming him, and the best part was that since he was an indigent, the state of Texas paid the legal bils. He lost his case and appealed and lost that case. But even though the victim won the case, it still cost him over $20,000 in legal bills. So even though he won, he still "lost"

  12. #12
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    That's why one of the first things you, as a crime victim, should do is file a civil suit against the ne'er-do-well miscreant, whether he/she survives or not. It'll be an open-and-shut case, but will make it much, much harder for them to come back at you later on.

    P.S. Don't forget to include the cost of the bullet in the civil suit.

  13. #13
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    Statkowski wrote:
    P.S. Don't forget to include the cost of the bullet in the civil suit.
    If one reloads one's own rounds, how much should one charge for one's time to make the round?

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