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Thread: Identification

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    I know that is isn't against the law to Open Carry, but will you have to show identification to show that you are over the age to carry a weapon if you are stopped by police? I've seen some videos where people have refused to show their identification to cops, and I know Virginia does not have Stop and Identify laws, but is this like driving a vehicle where you have to present identifcation that you are allowed to drive (Drivers License)?

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    If you look like a teenager.... You could be held till your age could be confirmed.

    If you look 18 or better... no ID needed. It is not against the law to OC so you are not required to show any ID. Unfortunately... this can also allow Felons to carry a gun and get away with it.

    I think everyone should have a photo ID in case you do get charged with something. Having ID can get you released on a summons. Even better.... if your injured and taken to the hospital... your family can be contacted if your unconscious.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    If you look like a teenager.... You could be held till your age could be confirmed.

    If you look 18 or better... no ID needed. It is not against the law to OC so you are not required to show any ID. Unfortunately... this can also allow Felons to carry a gun and get away with it.

    I think everyone should have a photo ID in case you do get charged with something. Having ID can get you released on a summons. Even better.... if your injured and taken to the hospital... your family can be contacted if your unconscious.


    Very true, but I don't see felons making it a daily practice to exercise rights they don't have.

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    danbus wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    If you look like a teenager.... You could be held till your age could be confirmed.

    If you look 18 or better... no ID needed. It is not against the law to OC so you are not required to show any ID. Unfortunately... this can also allow Felons to carry a gun and get away with it.

    I think everyone should have a photo ID in case you do get charged with something. Having ID can get you released on a summons. Even better.... if your injured and taken to the hospital... your family can be contacted if your unconscious.
    Very true, but I don't see felons making it a daily practice to exercise rights they don't have.
    How do you know??

    It is not written on their face... But I agree that it is not likely to happen.. at least not openly.

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    Dan, you have to understand where LEO229 is coming from. Everyone is a felon until proven otherwise.........
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    whoever enters a store is considered unknown and thief unless he/she purchases an item and leaves. 7-11 employee policy

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Dan, you have to understand where LEO229 is coming from. Everyone is a felon until proven otherwise.........
    My motto.... Trust nobody!!

    I would love to live in a world where people follow all the rules set by the community. No reason to doubt anyone and feel safe around them.

    But even felons still carry guns. Go figure... They broke one law that got them convicted of a felony. Now they are breaking another law by packing their gun.

    But I am expected to believe that because someone has a gun... I should, without question, believe he is legal. After all.... felons are not permitted to possess a gun.

    Ok... Now I headed back to the real world.


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    But even felons still carry guns. Go figure... They broke one law that got them convicted of a felony. Now they are breaking another law by packing their gun.
    Don't they still have the same rights granted by their creator, and protected by the constitution?

    I can understand a criminal who is incarcerated not being allowed to have a gun, but once you've done your time there should be no such restriction. You're supposedly reformed, and should regain all rights and responsibilities.

    But I am expected to believe that because someone has a gun... I should, without question, believe he is legal. After all.... felons are not permitted to possess a gun.
    Innocent until proven guilty...unless there is probable cause to believe otherwise. Seems fair to me.

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    Cue-Ball wrote:
    But even felons still carry guns. Go figure... They broke one law that got them convicted of a felony. Now they are breaking another law by packing their gun.
    Don't they still have the same rights granted by their creator, and protected by the constitution?

    I can understand a criminal who is incarcerated not being allowed to have a gun, but once you've done your time there should be no such restriction. You're supposedly reformed, and should regain all rights and responsibilities.

    But I am expected to believe that because someone has a gun... I should, without question, believe he is legal. After all.... felons are not permitted to possess a gun.
    Innocent until proven guilty...unless there is probable cause to believe otherwise. Seems fair to me.
    Q1: NO! They no longer have the same rights. They lose that when they commit the felony. They cannot play well with others so they get punished. No Gun For You!!

    Q2: This is not court where your innocent or guilty. It is on the street where you could be committing a crime. The job of a LEO is to "investigate" and search for probably cause to arrest you.

    This is a dirty, filthy job and EVERYONE hates the LEO because he will dig into your business. If we lived in a perfect world and everyone followed the law.. LEO would not need to do this.

    But some people have broken the law and will continue to break the law. If laws mean nothing than we need to just get rid of LEOs and let the people do what they want.

    Some laws are being broken right under your nose and you have no clue. It takes a little investigating to know. But some people would have you believe that it is OK to break the law and the LEO has no businesses discovering it.

    Shame on those people





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    Thank God I still have freedom of movement in the Commonwealth, and am not required to "show my papers" at the behest of LEOs........





    Seems some on here would like that to change......

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    I guess I'm ignorant so help me understand. What would be the harm in showing a LEO an ID? Sometimes we have to show ID to use a credit card and almost always have to show it to purchase something with a check or to cash a check. I am not trying to be confrontational, I am just seeking to understand.

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    Q1: NO! They no longer have the same rights. They lose that when they commit the felony. They cannot play well with others so they get punished. No Gun For You!!
    You're right. Under current "law" felons have very few rights at all. And those that they do have are easily violated because nobody will ever believe a convicted felon over a police officer or "honest citizen".

    My point is that felons SHOULDN'T lose their right to bear arms or any other constitutional right once they are released. While you are serving your punishment you will be placed under certain restrictions, which means loss of freedom, loss of the 2nd Amendment, etc. But once you serve your time you should have all of the rights and responsibilities of any other citizen.

    Q2: This is not court where your innocent or guilty. It is on the street where you could be committing a crime. The job of a LEO is to "investigate" and search for probably cause to arrest you.
    Your ability to investigate ends where my civil rights begin. That's all I ask.

    Some laws are being broken right under your nose and you have no clue. It takes a little investigating to know. But some people would have you believe that it is OK to break the law and the LEO has no businesses discovering it.
    As far as I'm concerned it is okay to break many of the laws in this country, as the laws themselves are unjust.

    If the LEO discovers someone breaking the law, then they have to either pay the piper or have their day in court. But being convicted doesn't make the law any more just. Not that long ago it was against the law for women to vote and for blacks to own land. Legal and right are not one in the same.

    I understand that law enforcement has a tough, thankless job. I also understand that all men have certain unalienable rights which the state cannot violate, no matter how many laws they pass. I do thank you for your service, even if we disagree on this issue.

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    acrimsontide wrote:
    I guess I'm ignorant so help me understand. What would be the harm in showing a LEO an ID? Sometimes we have to show ID to use a credit card and almost always have to show it to purchase something with a check or to cash a check. I am not trying to be confrontational, I am just seeking to understand.
    What would be the harm in letting a police officer search your home? What would be the harm in letting them pull you over and search your vehicle, even though you've committed no crime? What would be the harm in allowing the FBI to search your computer and monitor your internet activity?

    The harm is that as soon as you give up a little bit of a right, it makes it that much easier to give up the rest, or others. Look at the state of our country today. The president issues orders for illegal, warrantless wiretaps and virtually nobody cares! The government siezes ISP logs and nobody bats an eye.

    It doesn't matter whether or not you have anything to hide. Every citizen has a right to "be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects". Handing over your license, when you have no legal obligation to, is just waiving your constitutional rights for no good reason.

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    Good points, I guess. I guess I still struggle with the ID thing. We show it so many times that it kind of seems natural. Checks, credit cards, to check into a hotel, to rent movies, to buy an alcholic beverage, at a traffic stop by an LEO, to open a safe deposit box....it just seems that there would be no harm in telling someone who we are. Heck we go to a party with 30, 40, or more people and walk around meeting everyone and telling them who we are. The privacy of our identity is very limited to say the least. I have never had an LEO ask for my ID EXCEPT for a couple of traffic stops and one traffic accident so I really haven't had to face the issue when there was not a legal reason for the LEO to know.

    Really Privacy as we once knew it is virtually gone anyway. Hell, our names and or number show up on caller ID(if it's just the number the person called can use a reverse phone directory on line to get a name and address and thengooglethe house number and get a map and a satelite view of our property) Oh well I was just curious as to what we would accomplish by refusing ID to an LEO. Thanks for your thoughts.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIP My motto.... Trust nobody!!
    Especially police who you haven't called for assistance.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Cue-Ball wrote:
    SNIP Every citizen has a right to "be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects". Handing over your license, when you have no legal obligation to, is just waiving your constitutional rights for no good reason.
    Don't forget to add the word "unreasonable". The word "unreasonable" appears just before "searches" and "seizures."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Yes...now go back and re-read your last post with the perspective..."Do any of these people have the power and authority to put me in jail?" or "Do they want to get to know me? or are they waiting until I make some sort incriminating statement that could give them probably cause to make me to spend the night in jail until I get bailed out?"



    When you meet people, do you give them your driver's license? or just your name? Greet the LEO accordingly, once they start asking for ID, ask why...and then ask what crime are you suspected to havecommitted and are you under arrest? If not under arrest, tell the officer to have a nice day and walk away.

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    acrimsontide wrote:
    SNIP What would be the harm in showing a LEO an ID?
    Here is how I look at it. Police are supposed to do nothing BUT protect our rights (and render assistance.) If someone tries to murder me, are they not trying to deprive me of life without due process of law? (5th Amend). If someone steals from me, are they not depriving me of property without due process of law? (5th Amendment). If someone kidnaps you, are they not depriving you of liberty without due process of law? (5th Amend.) Is the police officer who stops a drunk driver doing anything more than protecting the life and property of the drunk and everybody else along the drunk's path?In a free society, police are there to protect rights.

    Don't believe me? Not sure you agree?

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." --from the Declaration of Independence (emphasis mine)

    Police are part of the government instituted to secure these unalienable rights. Their whole purpose is to secure these unalienable rights. This is more and different than justnotviolatingunalienablerights while they go about their job. It is an arbitrary and artificial distinction tosay thatpolice are not supposed to violatesome rights while protecting other rights (rights not to be murdered, thieved, kidnapped, etc). They're supposed to be protecting all of them.

    I've personally had police get out of line with me. We've all seenvideos of police going over the line.

    A quick, simple way toremind police of the location of the line is stand fast on your side of theline. Real pro's will understand. All the rest need the lesson.

    You're doing them and everybody else a favor by giving them that lesson.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Everytime I look around, I'm surrounded by (mostly) Amerikans who are sooooooooo damned eager to surrender their rights. As a young man, I used to wonder how things got so bad in this country. I wonder no longer.
    OK. Well, lets start teaching them. I've already started on friends and relatives. So far, peoplehave beenreceptive.

    I'll ask my legislator to sponsor a bill requiring DMV to add a list of rights in the Driver Guide. Maybe start with the 4th Amend right against unreasonable searches and reminding drivers they can refuse consent to searches. Maybe require DMV to hand out a copy to every license renewal. Have them explain rights at checkpoints. That sort of thing.

    If we were really serious about this, we'd make it a misdemeanor to comply with an ID request. Rhetorically speaking.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    SIGguy229 wrote:
    SNIPGreet the LEO accordingly, once they start asking for ID, ask why...and then ask what crime are you suspected to havecommitted and are you under arrest? If not under arrest, tell the officer to have a nice day and walk away.
    I might change that to asking whether you are being detained instead of under arrest.

    The VA Court of Appeals said:

    In Wechsler v. Commonwealth, 20 Va. App. 162, 169, 455

    S.E.2d 744, 747 (1995), this Court summarized the three types of

    police-citizen encounters:

    Fourth Amendment jurisprudence recognizes

    three categories of police-citizen

    confrontations: (1) consensual encounters,

    (2) brief, minimally intrusive investigatory

    detentions, based upon specific, articulable

    facts, commonly referred to as Terry stops,

    and (3) highly intrusive arrests and searches

    founded on probable cause.

    http://tinyurl.com/3cft8r

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    In reading all that was written I have learned the following:

    Showing your ID to a bouncer to get into a club.... OK
    Showing your ID to a LEO while your holding a can of beer.. NOT OK!

    If I am under 21... it is OK to drink because the laws are unjust. I will pick and choose the laws I feel are good and will only follow them. I live by my own rules. Screw society! But I want that same society to back me up in protecting my rights.

    Showing my ID to a LEO means "I want to give up all my rights"ending up getting my house searched by the Government too. If I do not exercise my rights... I am inviting the Government to enter all areas of my life and explore as they like. I am so interesting that they will spend hourschecking me out since they have nothing else to really do.

    What makes you think the government wants to search YOUR house??!! Are you scared they will find your porno stash under the mattress? Get over it!

    Your cooperation with the police and providing an ID when asked will not cause the Judges to join together and strip you of all your rights. Unless your actually wanted.... you have nothing to worry about.

    I have NEVER had anyone refuse my reasonable request for their identification. The only people I know who fear an ID check are criminals hiding from the law and a few paranoid people here.

    What a world it would be if you could be witnessed committing murderand never fear being caught if you leave town. You would be in the system as wanted but the police would neverEVER be allowed to catch you since they cannot request your ID.

    Let me sum things up...... LEOs do not stop and askeveryone for their ID. There is normally a good reason when they do ask. They are not out to violate the rights of people for kicks or personal gain. Often times theLEO receives a reportor observes something suspicious. The person may not have broken any laws but theLEO does get a chance to make sure.


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIP In reading all that was written I have learned the following:

    Did you read my post? Third or fourth up from the bottom of page one?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    acrimsontide wrote:
    SNIP What would be the harm in showing a LEO an ID?
    Here is how I look at it. Police are supposed to do nothing BUT protect our rights (and render assistance.) If someone tries to murder me, are they not trying to deprive me of life without due process of law? (5th Amend). If someone steals from me, are they not depriving me of property without due process of law? (5th Amendment). If someone kidnaps you, are they not depriving you of liberty without due process of law? (5th Amend.) Is the police officer who stops a drunk driver doing anything more than protecting the life and property of the drunk and everybody else along the drunk's path?In a free society, police are there to protect rights.

    Don't believe me? Not sure you agree?

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." --from the Declaration of Independence (emphasis mine)

    Police are part of the government instituted to secure these unalienable rights. Their whole purpose is to secure these unalienable rights. This is more and different than justnotviolatingunalienablerights while they go about their job. It is an arbitrary and artificial distinction tosay thatpolice are not supposed to violatesome rights while protecting other rights (rights not to be murdered, thieved, kidnapped, etc). They're supposed to be protecting all of them.

    I've personally had police get out of line with me. We've all seenvideos of police going over the line.

    A quick, simple way toremind police of the location of the line is stand fast on your side of theline. Real pro's will understand. All the rest need the lesson.

    You're doing them and everybody else a favor by giving them that lesson.
    That first line seems a little off. I do more than protect your rights and render you assistance. Unless you feel that my actively searching for the bad guy goes towards protecting the community.

    Otherwise, if this were the case..... I would not be allowed to actually investigate crimes. I would only protect you from immediate harm and help change your tire.

    But your on the right track.... The police are here for the PEOPLE and their purpose is to assure YOU have the quality of life that all people should enjoy.

    You can only tie the hands of the police just so far before they are useless. People are always demanding I do things I am not legally permitted to do. People are also demanding I not do things I am obligated to do.... enforcing the laws!! You cannot make everyone happy.

    This is like asking the IRS to not charge you for tax evasion. Do we like paying taxes? No.. But we do not get to choose not to pay. Wedo not get to pick the laws we want to follow.

    Either we are equal or we are not. With guns and cash and traffic violations! The people should be armedwith theirwill to abide by the law.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Showing your ID to a bouncer to get into a club.... OK
    Showing your ID to a LEO while your holding a can of beer.. NOT OK!
    When a cop asks me for ID, it's because he is looking for an excuse to put me in jail.

    When a bouncer asks me for ID, it's because he is trying to stay out of jail.

    It's not rocket science.

    And I don't need an ID to prove I have permission to exist in a free country.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Showing your ID to a bouncer to get into a club.... OK
    Showing your ID to a LEO while your holding a can of beer.. NOT OK!
    When a cop asks me for ID, it's because he is looking for an excuse to put me in jail.

    When a bouncer asks me for ID, it's because he is trying to stay out of jail.

    It's not rocket science.

    And I don't need an ID to prove I have permission to exist in a free country.
    I agree wholeheartedly....

    Alas conerning your last point, the Patriot Act is unpatriotic in that it (with earlier infringements of civil rights by lawmakers) allows for criminal acts by police...er um, what *use to be* illegal acts by police. i.e. The country is perilously close to not being free any longer. Currently the FBI can decide it needs to enter your life without ANY oversight by anyone other than themselves. No court involvement, so no court redress or accountability.

    Sigh......

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