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Thread: 2 actions...

  1. #1
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    well... kevin brought something to my attention... 2 actions before the gun fires... that can mean "rach one into the chamber, then pull the trigger" that IS 2 actions before the gun fires... ALSO... Glocks dont have a safety the way most guns do, it doesnt have the optional safety to keep the gun from firing... so does that mean that the 2 actions really is "cock the gun, pull the trigger"? or is it "cock the gun, flip safety off"?

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    No, pulling the trigger would be the second action. The law says nothing about having a safety, or what position the safety must be in.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SCHWEEET and dude whats up with your phone! i tried callin ya like a buhzillion times! did your wife take it from you LMAO!

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    It took a shat and died. I need to get a new one.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    hey! it pulled an "elvis presley" on us! HAHAHAHHA! OMG THAT WAS A GOOD ONE!

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    There is more to the law than just the two action requirement. Also keep in mind that you cannot have a round in the "firing position". In other words you can't have a bullet in the chamber. This also means on a revolver you can't have a bullet under the hammer.

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.



  7. #7
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    pulling the trigger IS an action that makes the gun fire... so it may be counted as an action

    and how many of you DONT have a Consealed weapons permit?

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    2 actions is pretty simple after you get past all the jargon. It is ANY 2 steps taken required to fire the gun assuming the following conditions are met.

    Utah revolver Unloaded:

    This will assume a 6 shot revolver lookingas if aiming thegun: #1 is under the hammer at the 12 O'clock position, #2 is at 2O'clock position, #3 is at 4O'clock, #4 is at 6O'clock, #5 at 8O'clock, #6 at 10O'clock) Firing the gun under normal conditions will result in a 6-5-4-3-2-1 firing order.

    - No bullet under hammer (#1 position)This means you could (in theory) look down the barrel and not see a bullet.[/i]

    - No bullet in the next chamber to fire (#6 position)

    This would turn a 6 shot into a 4 shot.

    Utah Semi-Auto unloaded:

    - No round chambered This means you could (in theory) look down the barrel and not see a bullet.[/i]

    You CAN have a mag/clip inserted into the gun as long as you have to rack the slide and pull the trigger (2 actions).

    A manual safety (or lack there of like on a Glock)such as a trigger/slide lock or grip safetydoesn’t matter as there are no semi-auto handguns (at least that I know of) that require less that 2 actions to fireif there is no round in the chamber as you always have to: Step 1 chamber a round& Step 2: pull trigger. If there is a strange semi-auto gun that will chamber a round and fire upon a single trigger pull then it would have to be carried without a mag/clip loaded.

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    so all of us are in agreement that since a glock has NO manual safety... we count "racking a round in the chamber& pullin the trigger" as our 2, right?

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    Yes.

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    Question-

    What about a 6 shot single action revolver? Could this be loaded with 5 rounds?


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    Huh? Why can't you have a round under the hammer (in a modern, DA revolver with a transfer bar or similar system.) It's not in firing position, it's the last one to be fired!

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    pinetree89 wrote:
    Question-

    What about a 6 shot single action revolver? Could this be loaded with 5 rounds?
    No, only 4. Nothing under the hammer and nothing in the next firing position.

    kparkerwrote:
    Huh? Why can't you have a round under the hammer (in a modern, DA revolver with a transfer bar or similar system.) It's not in firing position, it's the last one to be fired!
    There are3 reasons I can think of,none of themare that good of reasons.

    1. If the hammer gets hit hard enough it could "possibly" strike the bullet under the hammer causing a discharge

    2. Carrying a D/A with the hammer back where it "might" have a failure can strike the bullet under the hammer

    3. Some politician doesn’t know anything about guns, and figures if there is nothing in firing position the gun is "safer"



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    Ok, with a 6 shot single action such as a Blackhawk, could you carry it with nothing under the hammer and all the other chambers loaded? It would require cocking the hammer (action 1) and pulling the trigger (action 2). Would this qualify under the 2 action rule?



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    pinetree89 wrote:
    Ok, with a 6 shot single action such as a Blackhawk, could you carry it with nothing under the hammer and all the other chambers loaded? It would require cocking the hammer (action 1) and pulling the trigger (action 2). Would this qualify under the 2 action rule?

    I am not familar with that exact weapon, but from how I read it you would be OK since it would take more than one manual action (aka hammer manually pulled back would be the same as racking the slide, and then pulling the trigger). (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer)

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

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    projectile in the firing position = one in the Chamber/ Barrel

    manual operation of any mechanism once = in revolvers the cylinder next over since when you pull the hammer back there will be an "unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired."

    A 5 shooter will become a 3 shooter and a 6 shooter a 4 shooter and a 8 shooter a 6 shooter without a Permit.


    I, Personally, share the interpretation that "racking"the slide = pulling the trigger/hammer back, which equals 1 Action. Action # 2 pullin the trigger.

    But what do I know...




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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    projectile in the firing position = one in the Chamber/ Barrel

    manual operation of any mechanism once = in revolvers the cylinder next over since when you pull the hammer back there will be an "unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired."

    A 5 shooter will become a 3 shooter and a 6 shooter a 4 shooter and a 8 shooter a 6 shooter without a Permit.


    I, Personally, share the interpretation that "racking"the slide = pulling the trigger/hammer back, which equals 1 Action. Action # 2 pullin the trigger.

    But what do I know...
    I will have to disagree on this one.

    If there is nothing under the hammerAND pulling the trigger will not fire the gun you have met condition 1. Otherwise the #6 round would be the round in firing position and the #1 round (under the hammer) would be ok to be loaded.

    Condition 2 states: "whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired."Now once you pull back the hammer you have loaded the gun (1 manual action), but before this you are still 2 manual actions from firing.


    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.


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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    projectile in the firing position = one in the Chamber/ Barrel

    manual operation of any mechanism once = in revolvers the cylinder next over since when you pull the hammer back there will be an "unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired."

    A 5 shooter will become a 3 shooter and a 6 shooter a 4 shooter and a 8 shooter a 6 shooter without a Permit.


    I, Personally, share the interpretation that "racking"the slide = pulling the trigger/hammer back, which equals 1 Action. Action # 2 pullin the trigger.

    But what do I know...
    I will have to disagree on this one.

    If there is nothing under the hammerAND pulling the trigger will not fire the gun you have met condition 1. Otherwise the #6 round would be the round in firing position and the #1 round (under the hammer) would be ok to be loaded.

    Condition 2 states: "whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired."Now once you pull back the hammer you have loaded the gun (1 manual action), but before this you are still 2 manual actions from firing.

    I do however see your point, and could see how a LEO might give you hassle since none of this applies to a DA revolver (much more common) and you would probably end up in court over it.


    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.


  19. #19
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    Better safe than Sorry:shock:

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    Better safe than Sorry:shock:

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Better safe than Sorry:shock:
    Totally agree. I wouldnt suggest carrying in any maner that could possibly put you in hot water legally.

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    so all of us are in agreement that since a glock has NO manual safety... we count "racking a round in the chamber& pullin the trigger" as our 2, right?
    I would say NO. It is possible to pull the trigger on a Glock and the gun will not fire. If you do not depress the trigger safety first before pulling the trigger, then the gun will not fire. Technically speaking, the Glock requires 3 steps to fire without a round chambered.

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    b1ack5mith-

    This shouldn't be so confusing. If you have a Glock with an empty chamber, then it isNOT deemed loaded... (1) Rack the slide, (2) pull the trigger. Thats it. The code, in my opinion, is straight forward on this. The safety or lack thereof is irrelevant.

    That doesn't guarantee that LEOs or anybody else for that matter are going to get it right though. Just the other day I got hassled by a wannabe-cop prison guard while shooting west of Utah Lake. He didn't seem to think that I could legally own the silencer I had attached to the end of my barrel. Even after I explained the law and showed him the paperwork (which I did as a favor to educate),I think he went away hell-bent on checking out my story, certain I'd be visiting him soon... This from a worthless prison guard!

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    sccrref wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    so all of us are in agreement that since a glock has NO manual safety... we count "racking a round in the chamber& pullin the trigger" as our 2, right?
    I would say NO. It is possible to pull the trigger on a Glock and the gun will not fire. If you do not depress the trigger safety first before pulling the trigger, then the gun will not fire. Technically speaking, the Glock requires 3 steps to fire without a round chambered.

    I had2 Glocks and believe me IF there is a round Chambered and you PULL the trigger you WILL have a Bullet hole somewhere where you aimed the Barrel. Trigger"safety".

    Get a 1911 (Kimber) and you will know what safety is.

    Grip safety + Thumb safety.

    It's a Single Action Pistol so I can drop the Hammer with caution with one in the Chamber if needed and the trigger will not move once the Hammer is down.

    Glock...I tossed those out along time ago.


  25. #25
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Why not own a Glock AND a Kimber!?! Every gun is gonna have some kind of pro's and con's.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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