Micro Stamping requirement for handguns is on the Govoners Desk!

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HankT & vrwmiller - those are good points, I can see your viewpoint. I was only voting multiple times because these types of polls are not actually scientific, and there is no requirement to only vote once - it is bound to not be like a real scientific survey. When there is a "call in" poll like this or any other type of phone or on-line poll such as American Idol, they receive calls from people who care enough to take the time to call in, and multiple calls just mean you care that much more. For American Idol they specifically said vote as many times as you wish, and people did - some people hundreds of times in a single night. Not that I watched it, I just saw blurbs in the nightly news.

For a scientific survey they'll try to get a scientific slice of people including those who don't really want to be bothered & will ask them all a quick question, nobody will be called twice etc. Everyone knows that phone calls to legislators & on-line polls are only going to show which group of people cares enough to take the effort to call in one or more times. It does not make me dishonest to show that I care more than the guy next door.

The Governor knows the difference between a scientific survey & a call-in poll. The thing is, he also knows that the people who take the time to call in one or more times are also more likely to take the time to go to the polls & vote when it is election time. He has not ruled out running for President if that ever becomes an option, so he'll be interested in what the Nation thinks of his 2nd Amendment related decisions.

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vrwmiller wrote:

And announcing that fact on a public board? So, the governor's office hears of people calling multiple times and voting, thus rendering the results pretty much useless. Not only that, but it gives the anti's something to call us out on and/or they can do the same, except each one of them votes 20 times, instead of your 10.

ETA: I am just as much against this legislation as the next guy, but voting multiple times is not the appropriate way to go about opposing such legislation. Think about personal integrity.

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Is there something that says you may only enter your vote once? If not, then it is okay to submit your vote as many times as you want to. Personal integrity does not figure in. The law does not say it is illegal to OC, therefore OC is legal. Same thing with this vote. If they wanted an official type vote they would have hired a pollster, required some type of identification or put this on a referendom. Vote your opinion as many times as you want.

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Thanks sccrref - my thoughts exactly.

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vrwmiller wrote:

Not only that, but it gives the anti's something to call us out on and/or they can do the same, except each one of them votes 20 times, instead of your 10.

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I welcome the gun grabbers who care about their viewpoint to call as many times as they wish. There really are so few of them that care that even if they all called in 100 times it would make little impact. The truth is that the Brady Bunch has very few true "supporters" and the so called "Million Moms" group only wishes they could have a million members, much less a million moms. If you take a poll of Californians or DC residents there are many folks who have fallen for the lies & propaganda put out by the gun grabbing groups & biased media that would be willing to say that we would be better off if we could ban all guns. However, the majority of those same people really don't care enough about it to actually take the time to make a phone call, for the vast majority of them it's just one small thing near the bottom of their list of priorities, if it makes it on their list at all. I doubt many of them would take the time to read a board like this, otherwise they'd probably become educated & would end up joining our cause.

Folks like you & I on the other hand are dedicated to the cause of protecting our bill of rights. I'd be willing to call 100 times if I thought it was needed, but I have confidence in my fellow defenders of freedom on this board who are making the phone call so I'm confident that the Governor will hear our voice loud & clear.

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This thread is not about automatic weapons. :uhoh:

There is nothing that I can see in your description that would preclude the CA legislature from proposing micro-stamping--even if the NRA had taken up the, um, brilliant idea of eliminating serial numbers on guns. Your position doesn't make sense. CAlegislaturecan still do what they want.

I hesitate to ask, but I will. How do you expect to actually ask any legislative entity to seriously consider a law that would eliminate gun serial numbers? That's a far-fetched idea to say the least. And what would you do with the serial numbers on the presently owned guns in the U.S? Out of the 270 million or so guns, almost all of them have serial numbers now. Do we rub those out somehow.


It 's really interesting how strained and simplistic the NRA-basher arguments can be...

The NRA isn't perfect but thank God there are adults in charge over there.

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HankT, I'm going to take the higher ground here and avoid labeling you and undermining your character, like you did to me.

I brought up automatic weapons as an analogy to answer your question about how I think that the NRA's defensive position led to this proposed microstamping. Basically, you can't take the hill a mile into enemy territory until you clear a path to it first. And, if you keep getting pushed back, it greatly decreases your chances of being able to take said hill.

As far as serial numbers go... serial numbers are what enable gun registration. If you're not registering guns, then what's the point of serial numbers? And, the only legislation that would be required would be to eliminate the criminalization of removing serial numbers. Then, if people choose to remove their serial numbers, they can do so, or just leave them on. At any rate, to get away from that digression, if people accept no serial numbers as the norm, then it would make the idea of mandating microstamping much more ridiculous. So sure, they could do it, but they'd try to mandate the much more easily applied serial numbers first, giving pro-gun groups a better footing on which to fight.

Not that I except for my arguments to be accepted, and I rather expect them to be torn apart for typos and for going against the norm, but hey, I made an effort.

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The Title of this Thread is making me nauseus and really sick:?:shock:

(Vomit)

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Busy. I'll try again later.

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Well, I voted. It's still rather surreal to me caliing the office of Kindergarten Cop. I guess if Jesse Ventura can do it, anybody can.

I agree with swift about the poll; regardless of their original design, what they are expected to measure is both the number of people for and against the bill, and the intensity of their support or disapproval. The total number of votes is a combination of both. American Idol is a good example. I didn't watch it either, but I remember when people around here were so fervent about voting for Ruben Studdard that they overloaded the phone system. If that happened concerning AB1471, they'd have to listen.

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I called and got right thru, (the receptionist does sound hot) I also went to the web site of the gov, and couldn't find this bill. anyone else have this problem?

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tnshooter wrote:

I called and got right thru, (the receptionist does sound hot) I also went to the web site of the gov, and couldn't find this bill. anyone else have this problem?

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When I took a look at his site I got the impression he only shows bills that he has either signed or veto'd - he doesn't list stuff he has not yet acted on.

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vrwmiller wrote:

HankT wrote:

swift wrote:

I've called in to vote against microstamping about 10 times since yesterday. I just hit redial whenever I get the hankering.

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Why do you keep voting multiple times?

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And announcing that fact on a public board? So, the governor's office hears of people calling multiple times and voting, thus rendering the results pretty much useless. Not only that, but it gives the anti's something to call us out on and/or they can do the same, except each one of them votes 20 times, instead of your 10.

ETA: I am just as much against this legislation as the next guy, but voting multiple times is not the appropriate way to go about opposing such legislation. Think about personal integrity.

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Has it occured to anyone else that the anti-gun lobby is doing the exact same thing voting in favor of this legislation? The Million Mom Marchers are probably dialing away endlessly in an effort to influence the Governator.

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Ok, I'll concede that there were no requirements of one signalling opposition to the bill only once. However, I question the true effectiveness of the poll. I wonder what the Governor's true reasons are for putting up this system. Is it a 'feel good' measure that give citizens the impression that they truly get to express their opinion or does the Governor truly take the statistics from this call in poll and use them as a factor in deciding whether to sign or reject bills?

What I have been doing in practice to oppose legislation is to write an email to my legislators and follow it up with a hard copy that I send through snail mail. It's easy to pick up a phone and signal your support or opposition to a bill with a call-in poll such as this. So, what weight does this type of thing really carry with legislators? I don't really know, but I feel that it's not as much weight as writing a letter and mailing it.

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vrwmiller wrote:

Ok, I'll concede that there were no requirements of one signalling opposition to the bill only once. However, I question the true effectiveness of the poll. I wonder what the Governor's true reasons are for putting up this system. Is it a 'feel good' measure that give citizens the impression that they truly get to express their opinion or does the Governor truly take the statistics from this call in poll and use them as a factor in deciding whether to sign or reject bills?

What I have been doing in practice to oppose legislation is to write an email to my legislators and follow it up with a hard copy that I send through snail mail. It's easy to pick up a phone and signal your support or opposition to a bill with a call-in poll such as this. So, what weight does this type of thing really carry with legislators? I don't really know, but I feel that it's not as much weight as writing a letter and mailing it.

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Puh-lllllleeeezzzzzzze.

Don't confuse us with logic.



It's much better to let the hyper phone dialers think they are actually doing something useful. Keeps 'em busy.

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HankT wrote:

vrwmiller wrote:

Ok, I'll concede that there were no requirements of one signalling opposition to the bill only once. However, I question the true effectiveness of the poll. I wonder what the Governor's true reasons are for putting up this system. Is it a 'feel good' measure that give citizens the impression that they truly get to express their opinion or does the Governor truly take the statistics from this call in poll and use them as a factor in deciding whether to sign or reject bills?

What I have been doing in practice to oppose legislation is to write an email to my legislators and follow it up with a hard copy that I send through snail mail. It's easy to pick up a phone and signal your support or opposition to a bill with a call-in poll such as this. So, what weight does this type of thing really carry with legislators? I don't really know, but I feel that it's not as much weight as writing a letter and mailing it.

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Puh-lllllleeeezzzzzzze.

Don't confuse us with logic.



It's much better to let the hyper phone dialers think they are actually doing something useful. Keeps 'em busy.

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LOL - so now us so called "hyper phone dialers" are confused by logic & our efforts to be heard are not useful? What's the matter, was your ego bruised by our response or something? Me thinks you doth protest too much, perhaps you're "projecting" your own confusion as the head docs like to call it. :lol:

Seriously though, no harm no foul, I don't mind being called a hyper phone dialer. I also actually agree with vrwmiller that letters & email are probably even more effective than the phone calls, that's why I've done all three.

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swift wrote:

What's the matter, was your ego bruised by our response or something?

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Hardly. I haven't seen so much instant rationalizing since the defense of Bill Clinton's affair with Monica....





swift wrote:

LOL - so now us so called "hyper phone dialers" are confused by logic & our efforts to be heard are not useful? ...

Seriously though, no harm no foul, I don't mind being called a hyper phone dialer.

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With respect to repeatedly pressing a set sequence of numbers on a keypad.... um, do you know what a Skinner box is?

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HankT wrote:

swift wrote:

What's the matter, was your ego bruised by our response or something?

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Hardly. I haven't seen so much instant rationalizing since the defense of Bill Clinton's affair with Monica....





swift wrote:

LOL - so now us so called "hyper phone dialers" are confused by logic & our efforts to be heard are not useful? ...

Seriously though, no harm no foul, I don't mind being called a hyper phone dialer.

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With respect to repeatedly pressing a set sequence of numbers on a keypad.... um, do you know what a Skinner box is?

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Hey - "I did not touch that woman, Monica Lewinsky"

As to the question on the Skinner box, actually yes. Interestingly enough, Slot machines are actually set up along the same lines as a Skinner box in an attempt to make humans continuously place money in the slot machine & keep pulling the lever in hopes of receiving a reward. That's just one reason I refuse to touch the things as it too closely represents a monkey in a cage pulling a lever to get food (not to mention the fact that the statistics show that casinos are a loosing proposition for the majority).

The reward I hope to get by using my phone as a skinner box & my computer to send email is a veto from the governor. If I get the veto all my efforts will pay off, if not, I'll be disappointed, but it won't stop me from voicing my opinion via every means possible on future legislation items that are important to me.

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swift wrote:

The reward I hope to get by using my phone as a skinner box & my computer to send email is a veto from the governor. If I get the veto all my efforts will pay off, if not, I'll be disappointed, but it won't stop me from voicing my opinion via every means possible on future legislation that matters to me.

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See, that's one of the few situations where pigeons are smarter than humans. Pigeons stop pecking after the food pellet doesn't come out...they don't peck the button hundreds of times unless something comes out. They eventually stop.

It takes a human brain to strain their cognitive limits to come up with your stated and implausible causal construction.


Humans can be motivated by hope, no matter how weird it is. Pigeons just want a foodpellet. But they know when to stop. They don't do :banghead:

God does have a sense of humor, they say...

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There are too many unknown variables to determine how effective this call-in polling system really is. If we knew what requirements had to be satisfied during the design and implementation of the system we would be able to determine what impact each vote could have. Additionally, if the public was aware of the operational parameters and formulas in use to ensure that accurate data and counts were kept, we would further know how the public could participate.

It's still the public's best bet to send an email and follow up with a hard copy.

I sincerely hope that this legislation is killed. It is a bad law that will do nothing to curb crime or increase the amount of solved crime in California. It is just feel good legislation, that would have an adverse effect on gun dealers and, subsequently, the economy. Though, the true scope of that impact is likely speculative.

ETA: Not to mention its, yet, another infringement on American's rights to keep and bear arms.

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Hey HankT, I did use the word "hope" & it's too early to tell either way if our combined efforts to call & write will give us our desired food pellet or not. The Governor has up to a month to make his decision before the legislation will automatically become law if he fails to sign or veto it. I'm not pushing the button hundreds of times, I only pushed the buttons about 15 times over the last few days. I also sent email & mailed a letter. If my efforts don't result in my hoped for food pellet I'm ok with that. I've invested but a small fraction of my time that could have been spent watching Rosie instead (actually I wouldn't be caught dead watching her show, the anti-gun nut who surrounds herself with a staff of armed men), but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make in an effort to protect our freedoms. If you only wish to vote once I'm fine with that, at least you saved yourself about 4 1/2 minutes of life that I may have "wasted" if the Governor does not decide to veto this awful bill. But I'll sleep fine knowing I did all I could to fight it, and along with you I will be able to justly complain about the results of the legislation since we did our best to fight it, unlike those in our country who complain about gun laws that they did nothing to fight.

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Bump!!! Call, Write, E-mail!!! Let's shut this down before it spreads!