Gun owner receives apology from police chief

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Norfolk, Manassas, Alexandria, Fairfax and Arlington can learn a lot from this.


"Trevor Putnam knew the gun laws. The officer who stopped him didn’t."

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/sep/22/gun-owner-receives-apology/

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That is almost the exact thing that happened to me... unfortunately, I WAS arrested and charged (all dismissed as the "Man Arrested for Open Carry" thread in Alabama discusses). Why don't the police know the laws!:banghead: Oh well... Good on the chief for apologizing... I certainly don't expect to be recieving such a niceity from Wilbur Williams of Andalusia PD in Andalusia Alabama.

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I wrote the Police chief a thank you note.

chiefofpolice@cityofknoxville.org

That's a hell of a step and I appreciate his actions greatly. Everyone here should in my opinion. I hate seeing this rift grow between citizens who want exercise their legal rights and local law enforcement, whom I support greatly. I like to think his actions lessen the gap a bit.

That e-mail is fairly easy to find, but I post it here to facilitate sending positive reinforcement to the Knoxville police, not e-mails suggesting "What he should have done".

--Fox

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Good idea, Fox.

It's funny how the officer, even after being told the victim was within the law (and he was told that or else he would've arrested him), STILL wouldn't admit he was wrong. He told the victim to "cover up the firearm and go home." Some people have major problems admitting when they're wrong.

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That reminds me... whatever happened with the whole Manassas deal? Did they consider it closed? Even if there wasn't any "satisfactory" resolution, I would at least hope that they learned their lesson about OC.

Still, I refuse to spend my hard earned money there. My wife and I got into an argument the other day because she wanted to go up to Manassas to check out some vehicles she was interested in (we're considering a minivan... on joy.) and I refused to go to Manassas.

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The part that is pretty annoying...

If one of us said the following, does anyonethink you would NOT get new jewelry and accomodations for the evening?

"Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didn’t know, either."

Ignorance of the law does not relieve me of responsibility... nor should it relieve this "officer".

Oh sorry, shouldn't talk badly about LE, as they have a tough job, yada-yada. I can't find the statistics, but I'd bet the beverage of someone's choice thatLEO's have a higher crime conviction, let alone commission rate, than CC holders.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Ed

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cdpmaster wrote:

The part that is pretty annoying...

If one of us said the following, does anyonethink you would NOT get new jewelry and accomodations for the evening?

"Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didn’t know, either."

Ignorance of the law does not relieve me of responsibility... nor should it relieve this "officer".

Oh sorry, shouldn't talk badly about LE, as they have a tough job, yada-yada. I can't find the statistics, but I'd bet the beverage of someone's choice thatLEO's have a higher crime conviction, let alone commission rate, than CC holders.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Ed

Click to expand...

The department had a chance to investigate and did the right thing. Gun laws are obviously not covered as much as they need to be during the academy.

Side not... there isNO POSSIBLE way you would ever find conviction rates for CC holders since this information is not captured or necessary in court. I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops.

So I submit your argument is without merit. Please refrain from posting disparaging information unless you have something to prove it as factual.

Remember.. Innocent until proven guilty. :lol:

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72Malibu wrote:

That reminds me... whatever happened with the whole Manassas deal? Did they consider it closed? Even if there wasn't any "satisfactory" resolution, I would at least hope that they learned their lesson about OC.

Still, I refuse to spend my hard earned money there. My wife and I got into an argument the other day because she wanted to go up to Manassas to check out some vehicles she was interested in (we're considering a minivan... on joy.) and I refused to go to Manassas.

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The Manassas City Council and PD consider the issue closed. At last check the officers received remedial training and were reprimanded for calling the citizens "assclowns" and what not. There was no other fault found. Calls to reopen the investigation and order an independant investigation by VCDL, Manassas residents, and other VA citizens were not heeded.

VCDL EM's Dave Van and Philip Van Cleave have stated that they're working on a response, but have not released details. Not sure the status of this.

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LEO 229 wrote:

cdpmaster wrote:

The part that is pretty annoying...

If one of us said the following, does anyonethink you would NOT get new jewelry and accomodations for the evening?

"Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didn’t know, either."

Ignorance of the law does not relieve me of responsibility... nor should it relieve this "officer".

Oh sorry, shouldn't talk badly about LE, as they have a tough job, yada-yada. I can't find the statistics, but I'd bet the beverage of someone's choice thatLEO's have a higher crime conviction, let alone commission rate, than CC holders.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Ed

Click to expand...

The department had a chance to investigate and did the right thing. Gun laws are obviously not covered as much as they need to be during the academy.

Side not... there isNO POSSIBLE way you would ever find conviction rates for CC holders since this information is not captured or necessary in court. I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops.

So I submit your argument is without merit. Please refrain from posting disparaging information unless you have something to prove it as factual.

Remember.. Innocent until proven guilty. :lol:

Click to expand...

"I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops. "

It's because a Cop would NEVER arrest another Cop due to the Politics in the COP WORLD. Cops ALWAYS back eachother upNO MATTER WHAT.I have NEVER heard nor EVER read that an "HONEST" Cop have arrested a Fellow Officer for breaking the Law but rather "Educated" not to. Looking the OTHER WAY is very common since they all hope to "scratch" eachothers backs. ( Not a Good Visual aid for the Locker rooms
:uhoh:I'd say)

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LEO 229 wrote:

cdpmaster wrote:

Side not... there isNO POSSIBLE way you would ever find conviction rates for CC holders since this information is not captured or necessary in court. I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops.

Click to expand...

I suspect the data CAN be found. In cases where someone with a CCW is convicted of anything substantial, the CCW is revoked. Revocation data is kept on file; I have seen stats reflecting the number of revoked licenses in a particular state and the reasons for revocation. ( The rate is very low, and usually has nothing to do with a firearms charge).

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

cdpmaster wrote:

The part that is pretty annoying...

If one of us said the following, does anyonethink you would NOT get new jewelry and accomodations for the evening?

"Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didn’t know, either."

Ignorance of the law does not relieve me of responsibility... nor should it relieve this "officer".

Oh sorry, shouldn't talk badly about LE, as they have a tough job, yada-yada. I can't find the statistics, but I'd bet the beverage of someone's choice thatLEO's have a higher crime conviction, let alone commission rate, than CC holders.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Ed

Click to expand...

The department had a chance to investigate and did the right thing. Gun laws are obviously not covered as much as they need to be during the academy.

Side not... there isNO POSSIBLE way you would ever find conviction rates for CC holders since this information is not captured or necessary in court. I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops.

So I submit your argument is without merit. Please refrain from posting disparaging information unless you have something to prove it as factual.

Remember.. Innocent until proven guilty. :lol:

Click to expand...

"I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops. "

It's because a Cop would NEVER arrest another Cop due to the Politics in the COP WORLD. Cops ALWAYS back eachother upNO MATTER WHAT.I have NEVER heard nor EVER read that an "HONEST" Cop have arrested a Fellow Officer for breaking the Law but rather "Educated" not to. Looking the OTHER WAY is very common since they all hope to "scratch" eachothers backs. ( Not a Good Visual aid for the Locker rooms
:uhoh:I'd say)

Click to expand...

That is not completely accurate... I am talking CRIMINAL arrests. Cops can get a pass on traffic violations and I have given a TON of warning tickets to citizens too...

But criminal arrests are another matter. Cops do not free walk. I am aware of a few DWI arrests that happened in the past year as well.

Furthermore... IHAVE written cops traffic tickets. So it does happen.

But I am going to have to draw the line in the locker room... I am not touching ANY other officer's back! :lol:

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops.

Click to expand...

It's because a Cop would NEVER arrest another Cop due to the Politics in the COP WORLD. Cops ALWAYS back eachother upNO MATTER WHAT.I have NEVER heard nor EVER read that an "HONEST" Cop have arrested a Fellow Officer for breaking the Law but rather "Educated" not to. Looking the OTHER WAY is very common since they all hope to "scratch" eachothers backs. ( Not a Good Visual aid for the Locker rooms
:uhoh:I'd say)

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+1

To an extent, it's not even that cops look the other way at their "brother's" crimes...it's that they think it's NOT a crime b/c the man has a blue suit and a badge.

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Getting off topic now.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Furthermore... IHAVE written cops traffic tickets. So it does happen.

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Yeah, but they were probably New York or New Jersey cops. I'd write them tickets too, if I could.

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Tomahawk wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Furthermore... IHAVE written cops traffic tickets. So it does happen.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but they were probably New York or New Jersey cops. I'd write them tickets too, if I could.

Click to expand...

Ha!From Virginia.....

People complain that cops are given a pass... but I give out a ton of warning tickets too.. so the civilians get a pass.

If you have a +5 record... good chance you will get a pass as long as it was not reckless.

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LEO 229 wrote:

cdpmaster wrote:

The part that is pretty annoying...

If one of us said the following, does anyonethink you would NOT get new jewelry and accomodations for the evening?

"Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didn’t know, either."

Ignorance of the law does not relieve me of responsibility... nor should it relieve this "officer".

Oh sorry, shouldn't talk badly about LE, as they have a tough job, yada-yada. I can't find the statistics, but I'd bet the beverage of someone's choice thatLEO's have a higher crime conviction, let alone commission rate, than CC holders.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Ed

Click to expand...

The department had a chance to investigate and did the right thing. Gun laws are obviously not covered as much as they need to be during the academy.

Side not... there isNO POSSIBLE way you would ever find conviction rates for CC holders since this information is not captured or necessary in court. I can tell you that I have arrested more citizens that wereCC holders than cops.

So I submit your argument is without merit. Please refrain from posting disparaging information unless you have something to prove it as factual.

Remember.. Innocent until proven guilty. :lol:

Click to expand...

LEO 229,

Thank you for trying to keep the thread somewhat factual, but I think you need to be called out for a serious case of the pot calling the kettle black. Your annecdotalbit about arresting more CC holders than cops holds no water. When analyzing data one must always consider the biases and data collecting opportunities of the data collector.

So... How many times have you detained uniformed police officers?

How often have you conducted Terry stops on police officers?

How many traffic tickets have you written on LEOs that flagrantly break the law coming into or out of the PD parking lot? (Not the one with the siren on, the one that just got off duty, jumped in his truck and is talking on the cell phone and missed the stop sign.)

If the answer is few to none, then you must consider the reason that you have arrested fewer police offcers than other civilians is because you do not investigate police officers. (No data from which to collect)

When considering your biases I think that your "PRO LEO" bias has been fairly well documented in numerous threads. Anyone else want to back me up on this observation??

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Thundar wrote:

LEO 229,

Thank you for trying to keep the thread somewhat factual, but I think you need to be called out for a serious case of the pot calling the kettle black. Your annecdotalbit about arresting more CC holders than cops holds no water. When analyzing data one must always consider the biases and data collecting opportunities of the data collector.

So... How many times have you detained uniformed police officers?

How often have you conducted Terry stops on police officers?

How many traffic tickets have you written on LEOs that flagrantly break the law coming into or out of the PD parking lot? (Not the one with the siren on, the one that just got off duty, jumped in his truck and is talking on the cell phone and missed the stop sign.)

If the answer is few to none, then you must consider the reason that you have arrested fewer police offcers than other civilians is because you do not investigate police officers. (No data from which to collect)

When considering your biases I think that your "PRO LEO" bias has been fairly well documented in numerous threads. Anyone else want to back me up on this observation??

Click to expand...

I have no idea why you have a problem with what I said.. I HAVE arrested or had MORE contact with CC holders than cops.

Never had a "uniformed officer" commit a traffic or criminal violation in front of me.

I have approached cops who were in civilian clothing doing activities like stake outs where they were suspicious.

I have not observed any cops going to or leaving the parking lot in a reckless manner.

I can answer few to none because the odds are far less.

Have I stopped cops for speeding? Yes... Have I written some of them tickets? Yes.

Cops do not flagrantly break the laws as some may submit. They are responsible drivers that do not want to write up a memo to explain why they got a ticket to their supervisor. Having a badge does not get you off...

Am I Pro LEO? Duh!!! I am one! But do I always side with the LEO? No.