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Thread: Holstered Gun in a Daypack - - Concealed Carry or No?

  1. #1
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    My question is actually twofold – One being the clarification of the law as it relates to a holstered gun in a daypack and whether that is CC, and the other question in regards to the term "on one’s person" as it is used to define gun laws in general.


    I run around all day carrying a day pack (hanging from my hand) that is loaded with books, notebooks, music books, harmonicas, guitar tuners, gloves (in the winter), snack food, checkbooks, sunglasses and more. A mixed mess of stuff.


    I have been OC-ing. But I have gotten mixed answers regarding whether a holstered gun tossed in my pack is CC or not.


    One gun store clerk (whom I trust as being ANYTHING but a misinformed rookie) told me that he has questioned a police officer friend of his regarding this very issue only to be told that it’s "baggage". That’s right, BAGGAGE. Then I have had others tell me that it is CC because it is "on my person" and not openly or plainly visible for anyone approaching me to see.


    My counter-argument to the latter however is that it is also by no means readily available to me. I would have to 1) set down my pack, 2) unzip it, 3) rummage through the contents to find the gun, and then 4) take it out of its holster. Essentially four steps BEFORE having it available for use. Is that considered to be "on my person" just because it is hanging by two shoulder straps in my fingers when all it takes for me to drop said pack is to have somebody shove me unexpectedly?


    It is one thing to be strapped to one’s body in a holster. Someone could jump you, but your gun is still "on your person" even as you are rolling on the ground wrestling with your assailant. But not so in this scenario!


    Or to take that a step further, if having a holstered gun in my day pack is considered CC, what about having it in a suitcase that is rolling behind me but which is connected to my "person" by a four foot long pull strap? Same scenario. I would have to stop, unzip my luggage, rummage through my clothes and toiletries before getting to my gun to finally unholster it.


    My point is, what constitutes being "on one’s person" (i.e. fixed to their BODY), as vs. something that is an EXTENSION of their "person", loosely attached to one’s extremities (fingers/hands) and which can be easily dropped or separated from that person by an unexpected shove, attack or assault. That to me is neither a part of my "person", nor is it readily accessible. And as such, I would ask, How is that considered CC?


    Would somebody please define what exactly is legally "on one’s person", and what, by contrast, constitutes something being an extension of that person but not actually a part of "one’s person"? Then – only after you have defined the terms – are you then invited to chime in on the day pack/CC issue, since we cannot clear up the day pack issue without the term "on one’s person" FIRST being defined.


    My suspicion is that the term is loosely and vaguely defined intentionally to give the state more latitude, legal power, or control. If such is the case, does it not behoove us to get it narrowly and specifically defined for the protection of our liberties and right to carry?





    Thanks.

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    No person shall carry a firearm “concealed on his person.” This
    does not apply to a person in his dwelling, business premises or on real
    property owned or leased by that person. A handgun carried in a belt
    holster which is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage is not
    considered carrying concealed.
    Now what's the definition of luggage???



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    Bonker wrote:
    My point is, what constitutes being "on one’s person" (i.e. fixed to their BODY), as vs. something that is an EXTENSION of their "person", loosely attached to one’s extremities (fingers/hands) and which can be easily dropped or separated from that person by an unexpected shove, attack or assault. That to me is neither a part of my "person", nor is it readily accessible. And as such, I would ask, How is that considered CC?


    Would somebody please define what exactly is legally "on one’s person", and what, by contrast, constitutes something being an extension of that person but not actually a part of "one’s person"? Then – only after you have defined the terms – are you then invited to chime in on the day pack/CC issue, since we cannot clear up the day pack issue without the term "on one’s person" FIRST being defined.


    My suspicion is that the term is loosely and vaguely defined intentionally to give the state more latitude, legal power, or control. If such is the case, does it not behoove us to get it narrowly and specifically defined for the protection of our liberties and right to carry?





    Thanks.
    Unfortunately, I think you are right on the definition being vague. However, I can give you what my understanding of the law is. "On your person" would be immediately accessible to you, regardless of how easy it would be to do so, unless it is locked. E.G., crammed under your passenger seat, accessible. Locked in the glovebox, Ok. Stuffed in a bag under other stuff, accessible. In a locked container, OK.

    Not trying to offend you on this one, but if you are carrying for self defense, why are you making you weapon hard to get to?

    Note: If anyone with a better/more accurate answer feels that I am way off base with this, say so and I will delete as appropriate.

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    "Not trying to offend you on this one, but if you are carrying for self defense, why are you making you weapon hard to get to?"

    That is not the point I am addressing, FogRider. I'm trying to get terms defined and understand why I am getting such diffrerent and conflicting answers for such a daypack scenario as I have painted. I am trying to get a fine-tuned understanding for what exactly defines CC and what is not CC. If I have been asked to take my gun off my hip, and I comply by throwing it in my pack, and they accept that (mind you, I'm on foot and I cannot put it in a vehicle), is that now CC? And if my pack is sitting across the table from me on theother side ofa booth,is that still "on my person"? My point is I am trying to get terms and definitions narrowly and clearly defined. It would help me - and ultimately help us all -if we could get a strict definition of what is "on one's person" and what is "baggage", or as dreamcro said, "The issue now becomes what is the definition of "luggage"? After all, based on the second scenario that I mentioned of a suitcase with a pull strap, isn't that still "accessible" to me? I don't think accessibility ALONE is what defines CC. The issue, I would think,ishow readily accessible. And along those lines, I have heard that if one must go through more than (I believe it was) three(?) distinct steps before getting access to the gun, that that is not then considered readily accessible and CC, but "baggage" (That also came from the police officer friend that I mentioned in my original posting who called my daypack scenario "baggage"). I'm wanting to know if someone else can give me a strict, narrowly-defined definition of what is "on one's person"...or confirm that "minimum" number of "steps" that differentiates between a level of "accessibility" that constitutes CC, and what level of "accessibility" is considered being "packed away"/ "baggage"/"luggage".

    Thanks.


  5. #5
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    If that's the case, then I doubt a woman who carried a purse could ever be considered to be carrying concealed. I'd liken a daypack to fall into the same category as a purse and being part of your available belongings.

    I'm wondering if some of it is intent -- as you're not travelling to a hotel or on a bus or airline or to any destination where you'd be stopping over for an evening, you're simply carrying your belongings with you and they are therefore, a part of your person.

    If you were actually travelling somewhere (on an airplane for example), your firearm would most likely be cased and even more inaccessible. I think an LEO or DA could show that you meant for the weapon to be accessible to you and thus, a part of your person.

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    Bonker wrote:
    "Not trying to offend you on this one, but if you are carrying for self defense, why are you making you weapon hard to get to?"

    That is not the point I am addressing, FogRider. I'm trying to get terms defined and understand why I am getting such diffrerent and conflicting answers for such a daypack scenario as I have painted. I am trying to get a fine-tuned understanding for what exactly defines CC and what is not CC. If I have been asked to take my gun off my hip, and I comply by throwing it in my pack, and they accept that (mind you, I'm on foot and I cannot put it in a vehicle), is that now CC? And if my pack is sitting across the table from me on theother side ofa booth,is that still "on my person"? My point is I am trying to get terms and definitions narrowly and clearly defined. It would help me - and ultimately help us all -if we could get a strict definition of what is "on one's person" and what is "baggage", or as dreamcro said, "The issue now becomes what is the definition of "luggage"? After all, based on the second scenario that I mentioned of a suitcase with a pull strap, isn't that still "accessible" to me? I don't think accessibility ALONE is what defines CC. The issue, I would think,ishow readily accessible. And along those lines, I have heard that if one must go through more than (I believe it was) three(?) distinct steps before getting access to the gun, that that is not then considered readily accessible and CC, but "baggage" (That also came from the police officer friend that I mentioned in my original posting who called my daypack scenario "baggage"). I'm wanting to know if someone else can give me a strict, narrowly-defined definition of what is "on one's person"...or confirm that "minimum" number of "steps" that differentiates between a level of "accessibility" that constitutes CC, and what level of "accessibility" is considered being "packed away"/ "baggage"/"luggage".

    Thanks.
    I know thats not the question you were asking, and it's not a big deal, I just was curious about your intentions. As for the rest of it, I seriously doubt you can get a narrowly defined definition, as I don't think one exists. Much like concealing on your hip waist, common sense rules apply. If you are carrying for self defense and not just transporting, then you are concealing. If you can get to the gun without having to get up and go to it, then you are concealing. If your bag is on the other side of the room it would not be on your person, but sitting in the same booth at a diner it would be. As Wynder said, intent is the key element here. If your intent is to be able to get to it, then it can be considered on your person. It's the difference between walking through an airport with a gun in a fanny pack, and carrying a locked case that you are going to check. The latter is fine, the former will get you arrested.

    Disclaimer: I am not certain on the wording of the law, this is just my understanding of it as told to me from differing sources, and my own limited research

  7. #7
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    I got my CCW just to be safe. No matter how My carrying is perceived, I'm covered. I like to think of it as an insurance policy.

  8. #8
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    dreamcro wrote:
    I got my CCW just to be safe. No matter how My carrying is perceived, I'm covered. I like to think of it as an insurance policy.
    Good idea. The point I was going to make is that if you can walk into my house with a loaded gun and I not notice it, then you're carrying concealed as far as I'm concerned. FogRider cleared it up relatively well.

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    Bonker wrote:



    My question is actually twofold – One being the clarification of the law as it relates to a holstered gun in a daypack and whether that is CC, and the other question in regards to the term "on one’s person" as it is used to define gun laws in general.
    An easier way to look at this is how the law and court have defined "open carry". ARS 13-1302.Fis law regarding when there is no "misconduct" with a weapon. The first sentence says:"Subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage."

    Your daypack is not a belt holster. Even if you put a holstered weapon in it, the holster is not visible (a requirement of ARS 13-3102.F).

    And your daypack is not a "scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons...or luggage" per State v. Moerman, which involved fanny packs. The court said that it must be obvious under casual observation that you're carrying a gun. A holster or gun case is one thing. A fanny pack or daypack (or luggage) is not the same. And the Moerman decision pretty much negated the whole "luggage" concept because it's not something that screams "weapon inside" to a casual observer.

    The short answer - you're carrying concealed

    You can also find more by reading through "Legal Issues Relating to the Use of Deadly Force" which is what CCW Instructors are required to teach from. Michael Anthony starts covering this issue on page 20 and concludes that the only safe way to carry openly or in a vehicle is to have a permit.

    Fred
    Arizona Citizens Defense League

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    Bonker, Welcome to the forum. You will likely get variying opinions unless you have quotations from the actuall laws of your state as in the latest post. That is just the nature of the subject matter here. Don't get upset, if you ask a question that can be viewed in different ways, you will probably get different opinons. Also, if you don't get the answer you want but there are quotations with links to the actual law, you have two choices, accept it as law or consult a lawyer to advise you.

    In my state, open or conceled carry off of your own property requires a permit. Best advice is to get a good book that explains AZ laws (I know I have seen one recommended on here somewhere) and if you must at times carry conceled, get a permit.

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