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Thread: carrying around the house - yard

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    hi guys. altho i've been reading this site for a while this is my first post. i have had a semi-auto for several months (my first)and am currently working on my accuracy at the local range towards getting my ccw.

    in the meantime, i assume that i can carry any way i want inside my home. but what about outside, on my property? can i oc? cc?

    lets say i am having a yard sale and would let to have my weapon handy - but don't necessarily want to scare off potential customers by oc'ing. is cc'ing in a fanny pack or in a small-of-back holster under a shirt "legal".

    thanks in advance for yr feedback



    papasmee



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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    papasmee wrote:
    hi guys. altho i've been reading this site for a while this is my first post. i have had a semi-auto for several months (my first)and am currently working on my accuracy at the local range towards getting my ccw.

    in the meantime, i assume that i can carry any way i want inside my home. but what about outside, on my property? can i oc? cc?

    lets say i am having a yard sale and would let to have my weapon handy - but don't necessarily want to scare off potential customers by oc'ing. is cc'ing in a fanny pack or in a small-of-back holster under a shirt "legal".

    thanks in advance for yr feedback
    Congrats on getting your accuracy up! The shooting test is easy. As a long time student, instructor and range officer, 99% of any accuracy problem you have isin your trigger finger. Simply slow down your trigger pull until you get a "surprise break" (gun goes kaboomb when you don't expect it to) and the bullet will hit the target where the gun was aimed. That was big secret #1. Big secret #2 is to always focus on the front sight. Even with a lousy grip, stance and all the other bad things most gun owners do, bad trigger control is usually the root cause of shots not hitting where you want them to.

    As far as carrying on your property outdoors, it's a definite maybe yes. I doubt if you'd be hassled. However, a man was arrested in Tucson for carrying in the common areas of his apartment building. We (AzCDL) tried to fix it last year but the governor vetoed the bill (SB 1301). You can read more about it in our June 2007 newsletter.

    Fred


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    fred,

    thanks for the info. i would hope that yr property (single family house on its own lot) would be considered an extension of the house and as long as you did not cc w/o a ccl off property you would be okay.

    re: range accuracy - thanks for the tips. i will try it next time i'm at the range. the people i have talked too about the ccw test say that you need to get 5 shots at 5 yds and 5 at 10 on the target to pass. you get 15 shots at each distance.

    my groups at 5 are fine, those at 10 a little more scattered. altho i am left handed for most things, i am right-eye dominant and therefore shoot right-handed - which does not seem awkward to me so far.

    iam using a Bersa 380 whichhas been ablastso far.

    note: tip for Bersa owners - make sure you regularly check the tightness of the set screw for the rear sights since -the blade has a tendency to come loose and disappear.



    papasmee



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    I OC'd at our yardsale(s) this summer. I may have spooked a few but I visited with a lot more! One of the main reasons I OC is to show people that while openly carrying a gun may be unusual, it is not wrong. I OC while mowing the lawn, working on my car or playing with my kids at the park. The more folks see everyday people, doing everyday things - with a gun - the sooner they will realize that guns are not evil.

    LoveMyCountry

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    altho i am left handed for most things, i am right-eye dominant and therefore shoot right-handed - which does not seem awkward to me so far.
    For most handgun-shooting stances, your dominant eye won't affect things much, so feel free to try both hands and see which works better. (Rifles are, of course, a different matter.)

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    papasmee wrote:
    the people i have talked too about the ccw test say that you need to get 5 shots at 5 yds and 5 at 10 on the target to pass. you get 15 shots at each distance.
    Speaking as a DPS certified CCW instructor, you have partly wrong info. You get 5 shots at 5 yards and 5 shots at 10 yards. There is no time limit. Nor do you need to bring some big-ass high caliber blaster you are not familiar with. If you think you'd do better with a .22 then take the test with it. 70% of those shots must hit within a 14" x 16" area (the secondary score ring of an NRA TQ-15, TQ-19 or equivalent). Most instructors will let you try a number of times.

    Sadly,I'd saya large majorityof handgun owners would have difficulty with such a simple test - primarily because of their poor trigger control. It doesn't take any athletic prowess to be a good shot. Working at the range, I've taken people who were missing the target at 5 yards to a tight group near the center with 15 minutes buy just getting them to hold the gun right, focus on the front sight and s-l-o-w-l-y press the trigger.

    Fred

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    fred,

    thanks again for the addl info. On the Bersa I find that i'm anticipating the 1st shot since its a long pull da before the remaing short-pull sa.

    in your experience, instead of the da for the 1st shot, would it help to fully cock and go sa throughout?

    thanks,

    papasmee

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    LMC,

    i feel the same way however too many people as still spooked by seeing someone oc. however, as we all know, it not the people who oc that you have to worry about.

    its the bg's with the piece hidden in their pants.

    once i get my ccw permiti might be more inclined to oc. i know that sounds backwards but with the cc permiti would have more options should someone (shopper, LEO, etc.) question my oc. i could also shift from oc to cc and back as the need or location suggested.

    papasmee



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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    papasmee wrote:
    thanks again for the addl info. On the Bersa I find that i'm anticipating the 1st shot since its a long pull da before the remaing short-pull sa. in your experience, instead of the da for the 1st shot, would it help to fully cock and go sa throughout?
    My personal experience with the "traditional" DA/SA semi-auto is that I don't like it. My second shot was off when the trigger pull suddenly lightened up. That's why I shifted to guns where every pull of the trigger is the same.

    I thought it was me, but during one of my recent Front Sight classes, the instructor made a comment about the very same things. Students with the DA/SA pistols were having the accuracy problems with their second shot.

    I would never recommend cocking to SA. That's not how the gun was designed to be used. It's your carry gun. Learn to get that first shot off in DA mode accurately. "Dry Practice" with the gun in DA mode over and over, but no more than 10-15 minutes at any one time (fatigue creeps in). I dry practice 3-5 times a week. All the range does is give me confirmation of the muscle memory that I gained. At the range, practice only in DA mode until you get it right. S-l-o-w that trigger press down until it becomes a total surprise.

    Hope this helps?
    Fred

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    first thing i did when i got the Bersa was get some snap caps to get a feel for the da/sa. i try to use them at home on a regular basis and i will do some more as this sounds like a good way to get used to the release.

    how do you do yr da practice? fire-decock-fire?

    thanks,

    papasmee

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    papasmee wrote:
    once i get my ccw permiti might be more inclined to oc. i know that sounds backwards but with the cc permiti would have more options should someone (shopper, LEO, etc.) question my oc. i could also shift from oc to cc and back as the need or location suggested.
    Smart thinking!I'm the same way. I open carry 90% of the time as a way to innoculate the sheeple that it's OK to see someone carry a gun. But, I'm 60 years old and don't look threatening. I carrying a Glock Model 30 in an OWB holster with a spare magazine on my support side and most people don't see my gun for the same reason that car drivers don't see motorcycles. You can't see what you're not looking for.

    I also recommend having a CCW because court decisionshave negated much ofopen carry. The law (ARS 13-1302.F) uses the language "wholly or partially visible" but the courts have determined that to mean that is must be obvious under casual observation that you are carrying a weapon. If you are standing so the cop can't see the gun on your side, you ARE carrying a concealed weapon and theoutcome is up to the mood of the officer at that moment.

    Fred

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    papasmee wrote:
    how do you do yr da practice? fire-decock-fire?
    First the obvious - make sure there is no ammo where you dry practice and you aren't pointing the gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy

    I don't know how the Bersa works but many DA/SA guns willstay in DA mode as long as you pull the trigger without ammo. If that's not the case, then yes, pull the trigger then decock or do whatever you need to do to get back into DA mode and then pull the trigger again, and repeat, repeat, repeat......

    If your front sight has a flat top, balance a small coin (dime or penny) on it and practice pulling the trigger without causing the coin to fall off.

    One thing I forogt to mention was trigger finger placement. It should never go past the first joint. The ideal spot is about midway between the finger tip and the first joint (that crease near the top of your finger where it bends ).

    Since we're on the subject, the heels of your hands should be together and your support hand fingers should overlap your shooting hand fingers, with both thumbs on the same side of the gun (and relaxed). Never placeyour support hand index finger on the trigger guard. Also don't waste your support hand by doing that cup and saucer thing from the 1950 detective movies, or using it to grab your shooting wrist (like in theold movies).

    Fred

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    yr right, with snap-caps the Bersa will dry-fire in da w/o problem. this is how i drill at home. but there is no real way to practice live-fire da at the range since the Bersa is da to sa after the first shot.

    i'll definitely try the balance thing. it seems like the front end tends to pull up during practice (also sometimes during live fire). my grip might be too tight.

    i might also try balancing a book on my head at the same time.

    like you i am around 'mumble-mumble' yrs old and would not appear to be a threat so i doubt oc'ing in most places would be a real issue. at a certain age some people might see you/me as more of a target and oc'ing might reduce their temptation and cc'ing would at least help even up the odds.

    thanks for the practice tips.



    papasmee



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    azcdlfred wrote:
    I also recommend having a CCW because court decisionshave negated much ofopen carry. The law (ARS 13-1302.F) uses the language "wholly or partially visible" but the courts have determined that to mean that is must be obvious under casual observation that you are carrying a weapon. If you are standing so the cop can't see the gun on your side, you ARE carrying a concealed weapon and theoutcome is up to the mood of the officer at that moment.

    Fred
    The only legal challengesI could find areregarding whether or not an "inside-the-waistband" holster is visible enough to meet the "partially visible" definition. Generally, you need the gun and/or holster to be more than 50% exposed. A inside-the-waistband holsterhas generally been deemed "concealed"because nearly all of the holster and most of the gun is not in "plain sight". Belt holsters are not a sure thing either: if partially covered by a shirttail or jacket, it is "concealed". I asked a couple PPD that live on my block about your comment "If you are standing so the cop can't see the gun on your side, you ARE carrying a concealed weapon.." and they just said, "Huh"? If it's a typical external holster and not covered by any clothing, it isn't concealed regardless of where the LEO is standing.

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    Oh yeah, as to the original question "can you OC or CC in your yard?" If you own the property, you can CC. In fact, CC at a yard sale may be preferable to OC because you are less likely to get some California transplant nutsto call the police and claim "you were brandishing a weapon" which then to the dispatcher means possible assault and/or battery in progress.

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    I live in Phoenix, I OC everywhere as long as it is not posted (No weapons etc.) I live withmy weapon on my hip or at my side. my neighbors and friends are comfortable with me. I find OC'ing as the best Anger Management tool for myself and those around me. If you carry you can't go off like some street thug.

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    papasmee:

    I am also a lefty, left eye dominate,and when I shoot weak hand, I just turn my head about 10 degrees to to the right and it works just fine for me. I also practice with both eyes open a lot too, give either a try and see (no pun intended) which works for you.

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    Get a holster... put it onna wide belt. Carry OC in yer yard. I carry when I'm doin' this 'n that on my property all the time. Wild critters (big ones with teeth)'n rattlers. Not nice stray... or otherwise aggressive dogs... or intruders with bad intentions.

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    REPLY TO DRH



    Regarding ISW holsters,and if these qualify as "wholly or partially visible".



    Many makers will stitch a piece of leather, that rises 4-5 inches above the belt. The purpose is to keep the gun away from your skin, clothing, etc. These ISW holsters, when worn, are absolutely "visible. Look at "LAW" holsters just to get a feel for what I mean.



    Alec11



    P.S. 4-5 inches, may be a slight exaggeration, close to 3-4 butt length.

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