Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 32

Thread: Criminals claim Lethal Injection Cruel

  1. #1
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Springs, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/25/scotus.roundup.ap/index.html?eref=rss_us

    Every time I see things like this, I can not help but wonder that in the case of the victim in these cases, where the out cry of cruel and unusual punishment for them was?
    It is absolutely obscene to see what these Criminals are doing to the Court System, by playing Jail House Lawyer.
    Our Criminal Justice System is both a farce and injustice, abused by both the Courts, and the criminals, the judges are letting convicted rapist off with a slap on the wrist, Child Molesters are put on probation which they fail to do or find a way around it, people that are guilty of and have been convicted of murder are serving less time than a petty shoplifter.
    The bottom line is pretty simple if you can find, or afford the right lawyer you are pretty sure they will if at all possible shop for the best, most sympathetic judge for your case and in most of those cases the criminal will serve none to little time.
    I am not very tolerant of these situations, and to be perfectly honest with you I think that if a Police Officer and his partner witness a criminal kill a person they should be allowed to kill them on the spot, done deal! I can already hear the out cry to my statement, of how wrong that would be to deny the criminal his day in court but how about the person that criminal just killed where is their chance to be represented by a higher authority to repeal their death at the hands of the criminal, to the best of my knowledge if you are killed there is no do over available as a second chance!

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    450

    Post imported post

    Sometimes the only cure for evil is a necessary evil. (why else would anyone, includinglaw-enforcement, need guns?)

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    Eh, with the "law" enforcement officers we have today, I wouldn't trust a word out of any of their mouths. I used to think the criminal justice system was very poor in this country, but then I realized that with the reliance on police testimonies and skewed evidence, all of the innocent people put away for a few months would be in much worse shape if our criminal justice system were more efficient. It's one thing to spend 10 years in prison because the police needed a scapegoat for their execution and they chose you, it's another entirely to be executed as a result of corruption.

    Once again, in a perfect world...

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,882

    Post imported post

    Well, duh, it's cruel,in the most basic sense- it's designed to kill people - but then locking someone in prison is "cruel" also. Arresting people on ******** charges and seizing their property without due process is cruel. Having a crazy woman screw around on you and get knocked up by god-knows-who and try to pass it as yours is cruel... sorry - a tad bitter...

    At least this convicted killer's pain will be over at the end of it. I still have to wake up tomorrow.

    -ljp

  5. #5
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Springs, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    Why are we worried about the feelings of some dirt bag that had absolutely no concern for the feelings of the Victim or thier family, I really don't care if it hurts to be executed nor would I want to change it if it did, but I am the majority of one and that really don't carry much weight.

    Besides dead is dead, sentence carried out end of story.

  6. #6
    Regular Member thnycav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Windsor VA, ,
    Posts
    305

    Post imported post

    They said it was the combination of medications they where using and they have been using them for years. The good thing is that through the miracle of modern medicine they can mix up a new cocktail for them that has no pain when they give them their much deserved dirt nap.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Oley, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    221

    Post imported post

    Kelly J I understand where you are coming from. Personally I believe in the power of public exicution. Seeing someone hang at the gallows screams "This is what happens when you break the law." And I think less people would be inclined to do so if said penalty dangled infront of their very faces.

    On the other topic although not perfect the justice system was designed for a reason. And if the Judges and Jurers held up their end of the contract and dealt justice per the Constitution I don't think we would have the injustice we have now.

    As for the other end I do feel there are far more corrupt people than there are corrupt cops.

    Lastly don't you miss the good ol' days when cheating was punishible. Crimes of passion and so on...

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    1,098

    Post imported post

    I think a big part of the problem lies in peoples definition of terms. Punishment, by definition, is cruel and unusual. If it wasn't cruel and unusual, it wouldn't be punishment. (It would also be a indicative of a very sick society.) Punishment is supposed to hurt, to be a negative incentive. What do they want us to do, sing the buggers to death? (With my voice, that'd be worthy of a lawsuit...):P



    On the gripping hand, if someone deserves to die for their transgressions, one bullet to the back of the head seems pretty quick, painless, efficient, foolproof and economical.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    Kelly J wrote:
    Why are we worried about the feelings of some dirt bag ...
    Because the guys who wrote the Bill of Rights said so, and your state signed off on it:
    Amendment VIII



    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
    Of course, it's not the feelings of the "dirtbag" we are worried about, but the effect of arbitrary and cruel punishment on a society which believes in the rule of law. The dirtbag may just be trying to stall for time or get his jollies making the courts jump through hoops for him, but it is important that we always keep an eye on what our government does in our name.

    I know a lot of people who say things like "I got no problem with prisoners ass-raping each other" and "cops should be allowed to shoot them on the spot". Saying things like this means you don't believe in the rule of law, but in simple revenge and cruelty.

    The author of the 8th ammendment undeerstood that the government's treatment of suspected and convicted criminals must be civilized and, most importantly, restricted and limited. It's just another check on the government's power, againstthe day when they throw you in the can for posting the wrong material on the internet or having the wrong opinion or owning the wrong gun.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    I know a lot of people who say things like "I got no problem with prisoners ass-raping each other" and "cops should be allowed to shoot them on the spot". Saying things like this means you don't believe in the rule of law, but in simple revenge and cruelty.

    The author of the 8th ammendment undeerstood that the government's treatment of suspected and convicted criminals must be civilized and, most importantly, restricted and limited. It's just another check on the government's power, againstthe day when they throw you in the can for posting the wrong material on the internet or having the wrong opinion or owning the wrong gun.
    I think you really nailed it on the head there. I find it interesting how, on a board like this, where there are constantly reports of "law" enforcement officers abusing, intimidating, and fabricating charges against OCers, people would push for harsher treatment for "criminals" and for more cruelty.

    I try not to let my emotions get the best of me when I hear about situations like the original post because I think, well, one day, when they come to confiscate my guns and everyone elses' guns (we all know that day is coming, sooner or later), and I end up on the wrong end of the "law", how do I want to be treated? For a group of people who so often end up on the wrong side of "law" enforcement, albeit while engaging in legal activities, it seems a bit hypocritical to call for an end to the Rule of Law for other crimes. But, then again, you wouldn't think that a group of people dedicated to personal freedom for the RKBA would advocate jailing people for their manner of dress, either.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Springs, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk I understand your statement but if you dig a lot deeper you will find that.

    Amendment VIII



    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Refers to beatings and such, types of treatment,not executions.



    Your other points are well taken but I honestly believe that there is a major difference between the humane treatment of prisioners and the act of executing them. Humanity must be observed at all times as to the daily treatment of prisioners but the fact that these things have been taken completely out of the realm of common sence is beyond me, for example what sort of punishment is it to have access to a full weight Gym, Exercise Equiptment, Steam rooms, and things that the average person on the outside has to pay good money to have the use of plus paying through the taxes collected for the Equiptment they use, that isn't right, Alcatraz had it right you don't talk you don't do anything unless you were given permission to, that includes taking a dump or eating yor meals, if you got out of line you were disiplined on the spot that part was later stopped but the cons respected the Guards and the knew if you tried to escape a 30-30 was waiting for you.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    Kelly J wrote:
    for example what sort of punishment is it to have access to a full weight Gym, Exercise Equiptment, Steam rooms, and things that the average person on the outside has to pay good money to have the use of plus paying through the taxes collected for the Equiptment they use, that isn't right,
    That'll be the lower security and county prisons, not the maximum security and federal prisions.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Springs, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Kelly J wrote:
    for example what sort of punishment is it to have access to a full weight Gym, Exercise Equiptment, Steam rooms, and things that the average person on the outside has to pay good money to have the use of plus paying through the taxes collected for the Equiptment they use, that isn't right,
    That'll be the lower security and county prisons, not the maximum security and federal prisions.
    Be that as it may it is still wrong, Prison is supposed to be a punishment not a vacation spa, have you noticed the size of the prisoners that work out on a regular basis, they could very easily over power any pair of prison guards and they know it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    450

    Post imported post

    Maybe it is cruel... but, it's only for a moment. After that, the world isa much better place.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    molonlabetn wrote:
    Maybe it is cruel... but, it's only for a moment. After that, the world isa much better place.
    ...until 30 years later, when one of the detectives involved writes his memoirs, and tells about how they fabricated evidence so that the department would look better than if they hadn't charged anyone at all?

    Though, I will say that out of all the cruelty that happens in prison, whether just or unjust, lethal injection is probably toward the bottom of the list... I just object to the notion that just because 13 people can be fooled, one person automatically becomes the scum of the earth. Sure, in my opinion, there are people who deserve to be hung, drawn, and quartered. However, it's also my opinion that it's nearly impossible to know the complete truth about a crime, and so the cruellest of punishments should not be handed out without incredible, incredible scrutiny, a level of scrutiny that I doubt the current criminal justice system possesses.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    450

    Post imported post

    imperialism2024 wrote:
    molonlabetn wrote:
    Maybe it is cruel... but, it's only for a moment. After that, the world isa much better place.
    ...until 30 years later, when one of the detectives involved writes his memoirs, and tells about how they fabricated evidence so that the department would look better than if they hadn't charged anyone at all?

    Though, I will say that out of all the cruelty that happens in prison, whether just or unjust, lethal injection is probably toward the bottom of the list... I just object to the notion that just because 13 people can be fooled, one person automatically becomes the scum of the earth. Sure, in my opinion, there are people who deserve to be hung, drawn, and quartered. However, it's also my opinion that it's nearly impossible to know the complete truth about a crime, and so the cruellest of punishments should not be handed out without incredible, incredible scrutiny, a level of scrutiny that I doubt the current criminal justice system possesses.
    IMHO that'sno moreof a tradgedy than a murderer walking free, to later write a book about how they performed their crime... The innocent will always be at risk of being harmed by the corrupt and evil, if there was a better solution it would have been proposed by now.


  17. #17
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Springs, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    imperialism2024 wrote:
    molonlabetn wrote:
    Maybe it is cruel... but, it's only for a moment. After that, the world isa much better place.
    ...until 30 years later, when one of the detectives involved writes his memoirs, and tells about how they fabricated evidence so that the department would look better than if they hadn't charged anyone at all?

    Though, I will say that out of all the cruelty that happens in prison, whether just or unjust, lethal injection is probably toward the bottom of the list... I just object to the notion that just because 13 people can be fooled, one person automatically becomes the scum of the earth. Sure, in my opinion, there are people who deserve to be hung, drawn, and quartered. However, it's also my opinion that it's nearly impossible to know the complete truth about a crime, and so the cruellest of punishments should not be handed out without incredible, incredible scrutiny, a level of scrutiny that I doubt the current criminal justice system possesses.

    I understand what you said, and agree that there have been errors made, especially in the case of Rape, because of the now current process of DNA, which is a good thing, there have been cases of wrongful imprisionment, and one case comes to mind that I remember from a California case the Carl Chessman (I think that was his last name), but at any rate he had been on death row for something like 15 years, in the Execution chamber 3 seperate times, each time the Gov. Stayed his Execution, then the last time, the sentance was carried out, within a few weeks the party Guilty of the actual crime, confessed to it, and prooved he was in fact the Guilty party, when he was asked why he did not come forward sooner, and save Carl's life, his answer was, "I never thought you would actually go through with it".

    Not an everday hapening, but it does go to the point that the system is a long way from being perfect, and inocent people have been killed, but the number of wrongfull executions, are far out numbered by the right ones getting their final justice.

    No one wants to see errors made, but when you look at the situation in the court room, the person was tried before 12 honest people tried and true, given the facts, as were presented before them, and did the job asked of them to the best of their ability, and I would much rather be tried by 12, than carried by 6, any day of the week, the system isn't perfect, but it is the best we have, at this point in time.


  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    86

    Post imported post

    Pretty soon we won’t even be able to give criminals a slap on the wrist due to the pain it will cause them, and the laws will only be used to corral and control the law abiding citizens while letting the law breakers run free. We should be going the other direction with this. Bring back some ancient punishments.. steal and you lose your hand. Rape and they cut offyour . Etc…

    Weaken your punishment, strengthen your criminals. Step up your punishment, subside your criminals.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Springs, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    Bolt06 wrote:
    Pretty soon we won’t even be able to give criminals a slap on the wrist due to the pain it will cause them, and the laws will only be used to corral and control the law abiding citizens while letting the law breakers run free. We should be going the other direction with this. Bring back some ancient punishments.. steal and you lose your hand. Rape and they cut offyour . Etc…

    Weaken your punishment, strengthen your criminals. Step up your punishment, subside your criminals.
    Personally I won't argue your take on the situation, but if they are claiming that a needle is cruel, and unusual punishment, can you imagine the out cryto your suggestion.

    Every time I hear tings like this, I think back to the A** Whoopin's I got as a youngster, for the things I did wrong, and you bet they hurt, but I did learn from the experience, at least enough to try not to make a habit of making those mistakes. Pain is a motivator!

    Also I remember, the young man in China, that trashed some cars, and was subjected to the punishment of canning, I have seen that done, and believe me what I got was a light tap on the buttocks comparatively speaking, and I will make a pretty sizable wager with you, that he has never even thought about a repeat performance, of that act, of wrong doing.



  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    Well Kelly J, I think we both understand each others' opinions, so let's agree to disagree before we start going in circles

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    , West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    117

    Post imported post

    Just too add a little perspective and to play devil's advocate...I hearpro 2A people say all the time that the death penalty should be abolished due to the risk of wrongly convicted people being executed. Lets apply the same arguemnt to gun. We must ban them, too many innocent people a killed per year! See where I'm going?

    As the OP said, who was there to cry cruel and unusual punishment when these criminals did all manner of horrid things to their victims.

    Anda note about cops. Love 'em or hate 'em, they're the thin blue (or what ever color they wear) line that maintains order in this country. Yes, there are bad cops, but they are in the minority. The sad thing is that nobody give notice to the good cops.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Springs, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Well Kelly J, I think we both understand each others' opinions, so let's agree to disagree before we start going in circles
    Agree!

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    Just too add a little perspective and to play devil's advocate...I hearpro 2A people say all the time that the death penalty should be abolished due to the risk of wrongly convicted people being executed. Lets apply the same arguemnt to gun. We must ban them, too many innocent people a killed per year! See where I'm going?
    No, I don't.

    To keep and bear arms is a natural right of the people, enumerated in the constitution just to make sure no one forgets.

    What governments do to suspected or convicted criminals is not a right; it's a power granted by the appropriate constitution or charter.

    Private ownership of arms is a sign of freedom, and like any freedom it comes with some risk due to abuse and accidents.

    The authority of a government to kill someone may or may not be justified, but it certainly is not a sign of liberty. If abused, it is the ultimate tool of the tyrant. It is therefore open to discussion.

    You are comparing apples to oranges.



  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    +1

    I've NEVER heard of a Pro2A / anti DP guy.

    EVER.

    I don't care who you want to link or post about, it doesn't change the fact I know no people personally (as in, friend or acquiantence) that is.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    AbNo wrote:
    +1

    I've NEVER heard of a Pro2A / anti DP guy.

    EVER.
    I've met or heard of a few. One of them argued that the constitution doesn't explicitly give the government the power to take the life of convicts, therefore it may not do so.

    I don't quite buy that; execution was a common punishment at the time the constitution and BOR were written, and clearly there are people out there who's crimes demand it.

    But I am sympathetic to the poor guy who finds himself wrongly convicted and headed for the gallows, and that does happen from time to time.

    So I eye the government's power to kill people with a healthy measure of distrust.



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •