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Thread: Voice Recorder Pays Off!!

  1. #1
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    If you haven't gotten a voice-recorder yet, get one this week.

    Special thanks to a particular 2nd Amendment activist whohandled the technicalrequirements to make the audio accessible to the forum.

    A complaint has been sent. I'll post it to another thread.

    Click on the link to hear the audio recording, then follow alongon the transcript.

    http://tinyurl.com/2n3j96


    Traffic Stop 9-8-07

    Date/Time: 9/8/07 2:54 PM

    Location: Fairfax County, VA


    Officer Buckholtz: How you doing? Got your license and registration on you, please?

    Driver: Yeah.

    Officer Buckholtz: Driver's license?

    Driver: Um hmm.

    Driver: Why did you pull me over, officer?

    Officer Buckholtz: Because you have a brake light out on the left hand side, there.

    Driver: OK.

    Officer Buckholtz: Do you have a driver’s license?

    Driver: Yeah, I’m getting it now.

    Officer Buckholtz: Huh?

    Driver: I’m getting it out now.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Stay in the car. I’ll be right with you. OK?

    Driver: Yes, sir.

    [next few lines about address redacted from audio]

    Officer Buckholtz: Still live on _________?

    Driver: I’m sorry?

    Officer Buckholtz: You still live on _______?

    Driver: Yeah. Its just back up there at ___________.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. [Officer Buckholtz takes information back to cruiser.]


    [Move slider to 0:06:14 toskiplistening totraffic go bywhile officer is in patrol car.]

    [At 0:05:30 into audio recording driver turns on radio. At 0:05:39 into audio recording, driver makes a verbal time stamp]

    Driver: Its about 3 pm. 3:01 pm. Been here about three minutes.

    [Move slider to 0:06:14. At this point Officer Buckholtz returns from the cruiser.]

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Do you have your weapon on you, sir?

    Driver: Yes, sir. I do.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Why didn’t you tell me that initially?

    Driver: Because there’s no requirement to notify in Virginia.

    Officer Buckholtz: Correct. You are correct. But you know what? When I brought that on my computer, and I see that, and had you gotten out of the car, you would have been shot. Without a doubt.

    Driver: That’s a little bit of a …

    Officer Buckholtz: Without a doubt.

    Driver: Am I getting a warning or a citation?

    Officer Buckholtz: You are getting a warning, sir.

    Driver: Well, thank you.

    Officer Buckholtz: So that may be something you want to divulge when you, uh, when you get pulled over from now on. OK?

    Driver: The, uh, that’s a rather strong circumstance for a citizen who’s passed a backround check in order to get that CHP.

    Officer Buckholtz: I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not arguing with you about that. But what I’m saying is…

    Driver: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You are.

    Officer Buckholtz: If I know there is a gun in the car, there are different parameters that I deal with. OK?

    Driver: Sir, um. [Looks at Warning ticket] Buckholtz?

    Officer Buckholtz: Yes, sir.

    Driver: Oh, you and I have spoken before, I think.

    Officer Buckholtz: I don’t know if we have or not.

    Driver: Alright. The, um, you just criticized me for not notifying you. You’re…

    Officer Buckholtz: Your did. You’re right. Its not required by law. I said, I made, I simply made a suggestion that it would probably be a good idea.

    Driver: No, you didn’t simply make a suggestion, sir.

    Officer Buckholtz: I certainly did.

    Driver: You criticized me for it.

    Officer Buckholtz: I didn’t criticize anything. I said that would probably be a good idea because had you gotten out of the car you probably would have been shot is what I said. And it’s a suggestion. That’s what I said. It’s a suggestion. If you don’t want to that’s completely your perogative. Its simply a suggestion.

    Driver: Officer Buckholtz?

    Officer Buckholtz: Yes, sir.

    Driver: You didn’t suggest it.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK, well that’s how I [unintelligible] a suggestion

    Driver: Your, your, your tone of voice indicated that you were clearly criticizing me for not notifying you.

    Officer Buckholtz: It wasn’t a criticize. It was…well that wasn’t my intention, sir. It was merely a, um, suggestion that you, that would probably be a good idea for you to notify a law enforcement officer if there is a weapon in the vehicle.

    Driver: I disagree, sir. I have…

    Officer Buckholtz: That’s your perogative to disagree.

    Driver: I have a CHP. I passed a backround check to get that. So why is a police officer worried about a citizen who’s passed a backround check?

    Officer Buckholtz: Who is carrying a gun?

    Driver: Yes, sir.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK.

    Driver: Why is a officer worried about…

    Officer Buckholtz: Put yourself in my position.

    Driver: …with a citizen who has…

    Officer Buckholtz: Well, just put yourself in my position.

    Driver: OK.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. You’re an officer back here…

    Driver: Right.

    Officer Buckholtz: You don’t know that, that I have a gun.

    Driver: Well, wait a minute. Police…

    [Both try to talk at same time.]

    Officer Buckholtz: You wanted to play the role.

    Driver: Alright.

    Officer Buckholtz: You don’t, you don’t know that I have a gun. OK? You’re sitting there…

    [Both try to talk at same time.]

    Driver: You as a police officer…

    Officer Buckholtz: …comes up and says he’s potentially got a gun. And you start stepping out of your car. What do I do?

    Driver: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I can see your soft body armor.

    Officer Buckholtz: Right.

    Driver: You assume you are going to meet people who are armed.

    Officer Buckholtz: Correct.

    Driver: Alright. And do you…

    Officer Buckholtz: I don’t expect to get shot at, though.

    Driver: Do you, do your, do your protocols not require you to approach my car right where you’re standing.

    Officer Buckholtz: Negative. I can approach you where my partner’s at over here.

    Driver: Who’s behind the window and the line of fire where if I have a firearm and intend to…

    Officer Buckholtz: Now you’re getting into tactics.

    Driver: But that’s, that’s where your tactics are.

    Officer Buckholtz: Well, what if you’re left handed?

    Driver: Oh, yeah. By the time [motion with empty left hand out window, making a "pistol" with fingers to show difficulty for left-hander to take officer under fire] here…

    Officer Buckholtz: You know. [Unintelligle—both talking]…find out already?

    Driver: So, if I….

    Officer Buckholtz: What if you have it in between the seats?

    Driver: If I send a Freedom of Information Act request for your General Orders on how to perform traffic stops…

    Officer Buckholtz: You don’t even have to. You can go down to the library and get it.

    Driver: OK. And there will be nothing in there about you expecting and being ready for an armed encounter.

    Officer Buckholtz: We’re always ready for an armed encounter.

    Driver: Exactly.

    Officer Buckholtz: Which is what I’m saying. Had you gotten out of that car. Now, knowing that you’re armed…

    Driver: um hmm

    Officer Buckholtz: …you probably would have been shot. That’s what I’m saying.

    Driver: Well, thank you for announcing in advance that you would, uh, infringe on my 5th Amendment rights. [deprived of life without due process of law]

    Officer Buckholtz: And how is that?

    Driver: You’re shooting at a citizen who is getting out of the car…

    Officer Buckholtz: No, no, no. An armed subject.

    Driver: …with no weapons in his hands. Aah, that's real good.

    Officer Buckholtz: You were told to stay in your car.

    Driver:: Yes. And you noticed that I observed that instruction very carefully, didn’t you?

    Officer Buckholtz: Absolutely. Absolutely. I’m very, I’m very glad you did.

    Driver: So, so, why the criticism?

    Officer Buckholtz: It wasn’t a criticism? It was a suggestion, sir.

    Driver: Well, that it wasn’t.

    Officer Buckholtz: Well, you can perceive it any way you like. It was meant as a criticism. Or not, as uh, as a uh, you know…[I speak, and being closer to the recorder drown part of Buckholtz’s response]…meant as a criticism for it.

    Driver: Officer Buckholtz. I think you, I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere with this conversation.

    Officer Buckholtz: I d…, I agree. We probably won’t.

    Driver: Am I free to go?

    Officer Buckholtz: Yes, sir. You have been the whole time.

    Driver: Well, that’s not for sure true. You told me to sit right here. And wait.

    Officer Buckholtz: After, well what did, what did I tell you after your li..., after I gave your license back. [unintelligible]…go.

    Driver: You did tell me to go. Yes. Very good.

    Officer Buckholtz: You’ve been sitting here for ten minutes on your own.

    Driver: Ha. Ha. Yeah, right.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK? I thank you, sir.

    Driver: Bye, bye. [end of encounter][/i]


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  2. #2
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    Good recording. I think the cop was a little too gung ho to say hes is going to shoot you without a doubt if you got out of the car. He did at least give you a warning instead of a ticket though.

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    Should have been OC'ing, problem solved......:P
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    At a recent traffic stop (no ticket) on Rt 50 in Fairfax, the officer nicely requested that next time I inform him I have a CHP as a courtesy. His request gave me theimpression thatit would put him a little at ease since I have had a background check.

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    That's odd. I have a CHP as well and have for many years. In that time, I have been pulled over a few times. Never once have I ever offered (or been asked) about having a firearm in my posession.

    The part that disturbs me is that he would have fired on you for simply getting out of the car. LEO are trained to approach any situation as if the citizen/subject is armed, correct? I have seen many people get out of their vehicles during a traffic stop and not get shot.

    I didn't see it as a suggestion though, I saw him stating that you'd have been shot. That's a strongly worded suggestion, I think.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Interesting that he asserts he would shoot a man who merely had a CHP and no other evidence of a weapon!. When did this happen BTW?

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    longwatch wrote:
    Interesting that he asserts he would shoot a man who merely had a CHP and no other evidence of a weapon!. When did this happen BTW?
    The complaint is posted and includes the incident date.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    WOW.

    Follow the law, and his instructions... and he will shoot you for it. What a great guy.

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    What would have happened if the driver had gotten out of the car mean time to look at the burned out light bulb.

    Or thinks to himself, "Gee, I've got a spare here in the glovebox. I'll just change it right now." Gets the bulb, steps out of the car...
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
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    Where did you have the recorder in the car? The quality is very clear!

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    muzz3256 wrote:
    Where did you have the recorder in the car? The quality is very clear!
    Probably best not to give away tactics. Police monitor the forum. They may not all be good guys.

    I imagine mostvoice recorders arepretty good. You figure they expect to pick up a college student's professor across the room. A police officer outside the car door should be no trick for a voice recorder.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizens are armed all the time. Simply standing up without a visible weapon and without any threatening gestures is NOT enough to use deadly force. Of course, with the blue wall of silence, he probably feels pretty secure that he can get away with it. It just shows who the really dangerous people are.

    Just using common sense (and the LAW), any person who shot a guy walking towards him with empty hands that simply said "I have a gun" would be put away for murder...MAYBE manslaughter.

    Perhaps we should forward this link to local media.

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    ama-gi wrote:
    SNIP Perhaps we should forward this link to local media.
    Gotta give the police a chance to investigate.

    A complaint was filed. See the thread, "Voice Recorder Pays Off, Complaint."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    ama-gi wrote:
    SNIP Perhaps we should forward this link to local media.
    Gotta give the police a chance to investigate.

    A complaint was filed. See the thread, "Voice Recorder Pays Off, Complaint."
    I'll of course adhere to your requests, but I don't see anything to investigate. He said it, he was wrong. The 130,000 CHP holders in VA deserve to know that they'll be murdered if they step out of their vehicle while in FFX.

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    The cop was most likely just blowing smoke in an effort to intimidate Citizen into complying with his suggestion to inform officers of his concealed weapon at a future traffic stop. A wholly wrong tactic indeed.

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    Reverend73 wrote:
    The cop was most likely just blowing smoke in an effort to intimidate Citizen into complying with his suggestion to inform officers of his concealed weapon at a future traffic stop. A wholly wrong tactic indeed.
    Hard to say, I think. He is still pushing the concept well into the encounter.I think there was more to it than that.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    This is completely insane the cop needs some training I'd say...

    Do be sure to make a complaint so he won't be threatening, or actually shooting folks in the future.

    Overall, he seemed not very intelligent, which may account for it.

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    I am curious.... the driver mentions he has met or encountered the officer before.... what is that about?

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    Citizen wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    Where did you have the recorder in the car? The quality is very clear!
    Probably best not to give away tactics. Police monitor the forum. They may not all be good guys.

    I imagine mostvoice recorders arepretty good. You figure they expect to pick up a college student's professor across the room. A police officer outside the car door should be no trick for a voice recorder.
    Thats alright, trade secret. Most of my recordings come out with the volume too low.

  20. #20
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    ama-gi wrote:
    Citizens are armed all the time. Simply standing up without a visible weapon and without any threatening gestures is NOT enough to use deadly force. Of course, with the blue wall of silence, he probably feels pretty secure that he can get away with it. It just shows who the really dangerous people are.

    Just using common sense (and the LAW), any person who shot a guy walking towards him with empty hands that simply said "I have a gun" would be put away for murder...MAYBE manslaughter.

    Perhaps we should forward this link to local media.
    Once again.... "Let's go above and beyond!! Let's tell the media! And CC the FBI too!! This needs to be investigated by them now!"




    Your the guy who would always jump the chain of command and go straight to the top guy in charge to complaint that an employee stole your bag of chip out of your lunch bag.

    Get over your cop hating ways.

  21. #21
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    Citizen...

    Sorry for the encounter....

    I have stopped many people that had a CC permit return. I treat EVERYONE liked they are armed!! Each time I return to the window I look for their hands.

    I do not rely on the permit to tell me there is a gun in the car. For me.. the only time I really car about the CC return is if I catch them CCing and they do not have a permit or... during the encounter they have abad attitude. I then call for backup.

    I have had a few people kindly tell me they have a permit and they were or were not packing. I appreciate knowing but really do not care.... unless they are the guy with the attitude. In that case.. I may need to actually take his gun.

    This would be the only time I take it and that is based on what I feel is a person who is armed and a credible threat at that moment. Otherwise... I let them keep it.

    If you have CC permit... you have been checked out. I am going to always keep an eye on you and ask you to remain in your car while I return to my car.

    Now it worries me that this cop would say he could shoot you for getting out of your car at that moment. He can order you back into your car and if you refused.... he could keep an eye on you while requesting backup. But you would still need to produce your weapon before he can shoot you.

    I noticed you excluded your nameand labeled yourself as "Driver"..... I was looking forward to getting that info...

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    ama-gi wrote:
    Citizens are armed all the time. Simply standing up without a visible weapon and without any threatening gestures is NOT enough to use deadly force. Of course, with the blue wall of silence, he probably feels pretty secure that he can get away with it. It just shows who the really dangerous people are.

    Just using common sense (and the LAW), any person who shot a guy walking towards him with empty hands that simply said "I have a gun" would be put away for murder...MAYBE manslaughter.

    Perhaps we should forward this link to local media.
    Once again.... "Let's go above and beyond!! Let's tell the media! And CC the FBI too!! This needs to be investigated by them now!"




    Your the guy who would always jump the chain of command and go straight to the top guy in charge to complaint that an employee stole your bag of chip out of your lunch bag.

    Get over your cop hating ways.
    JUST because we as law abiding citizens would like police to treat citizens respectfully does NOT mean we hate them. YOU always take things to the extreme opposite of what was meant or said. When a police officer acts inappropriately he / she SHOULD be reported. As evidenced by recent events in Manassas reporting them to their local supervision does little good. Maybe they all should be reported to the FBI!!

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    tjdempster wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    ama-gi wrote:
    Citizens are armed all the time. Simply standing up without a visible weapon and without any threatening gestures is NOT enough to use deadly force. Of course, with the blue wall of silence, he probably feels pretty secure that he can get away with it. It just shows who the really dangerous people are.

    Just using common sense (and the LAW), any person who shot a guy walking towards him with empty hands that simply said "I have a gun" would be put away for murder...MAYBE manslaughter.

    Perhaps we should forward this link to local media.
    Once again.... "Let's go above and beyond!! Let's tell the media! And CC the FBI too!! This needs to be investigated by them now!"




    Your the guy who would always jump the chain of command and go straight to the top guy in charge to complaint that an employee stole your bag of chip out of your lunch bag.

    Get over your cop hating ways.
    JUST because we as law abiding citizens would like police to treat citizens respectfully does NOT mean we hate them. YOU always take things to the extreme opposite of what was meant or said. When a police officer acts inappropriately he / she SHOULD be reported. As evidenced by recent events in Manassas reporting them to their local supervision does little good. Maybe they all should be reported to the FBI!!
    I have a history with this current member.. He DOES hate the police. He is here to propagate his hatred on this board.

    The post was directed at one member. Not you or any other members who are indifferent. You must still give the department the chance to investigate. If itwas to skip the lower level... your court case could bypass all the lower courts and go straight the the highest court. The idea isto give the higher levelfewer cases so they can take more time in making their decisions.

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    The officer was over the top saying he would shoot if you got out of the car. Hopefully a simple letter to his boss will make him think through what he said and regret it if he hasn't already done so. Sorry, I don't see this as a big deal requiring media attention.

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    lax wrote:
    The officer was over the top saying he would shoot if you got out of the car. Hopefully a simple letter to his boss will make him think through what he said and regret it if he hasn't already done so. Sorry, I don't see this as a big deal requiring media attention.
    Agreed.... this was not necessary.

    His actions should be reported so that he can be molded into a better officer.

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