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Thread: What is your interperation of this..............

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    http://www.virginia.edu/uvapolice/firearmspolicy.htm

    UVa Police Firearms Policy

    The possession, storage or use of any kind of ammunition, firearms, fireworks, explosives, air rifles and air pistols on University-owned or operated property, without the expressed written permission of the University police, is prohibited.

    Requests for permission should be addressed in advance to the University Police Department where they will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis in accordance with State and federal law and the safety of the University community.

    Wouldn't this be illegal under the preemption laws? It does not specify wether student, staff, faculty, or general citizen, but it's almost worded like a general ban. Worthy of typing an e-mail about?

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    MUZZ,

    I would send the email requesting clarification.

    i saw this while perusing the website as well.

    "The University, as with any other public or private entity, cannot assure or guarantee a crime free living or working environment. Accordingly, it is the responsibility of members of the University community to act in a security conscious manner and to avoid actions which jeopardize their security as well as the security of others. Members of the faculty, staff, and student body should report all crimes, hazards, emergencies, or dangerous situations to the Police Department. "

    It is "funny" how they tell you that you have the responsibilty to act in a security conscious manner and then turn around and deny you the ability to do so.

    Joe

    BSARCH97

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    nakedshoplifter wrote: NSL,

    Muzz is refering to UVA(The University of Virginia)the above quoted code is for VCU(Virginia Commonwealth University) only. Am I missing something here?

    Joe

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    Requests for permission should be addressed in advance to the University Police Department where they will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis in accordance with State and federal law and the safety of the University community.


    Given that the statement appears on the general UVA Police website, and not in a student/employee handbook, makes it look like a general ban to me. However, they'll probably argue that the second paragraph (above) makes it somehow less than a general ban. So the fundamental question is, how will they deal with "requests for permission?" IANAL, but I would argue that they couldn't deny them to anyone who is legally eligible to own a firearm without exposing themselves to a lawsuit. Wanna be a test case?

    Wahoowa.

    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    67GT390FB wrote:
    nakedshoplifter wrote: NSL,

    Muzz is refering to UVA(The University of Virginia)the above quoted code is for VCU(Virginia Commonwealth University) only. Am I missing something here?

    Joe
    Opps! Right you are, didn't pay close attention the there.

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    Eeyore wrote:
    Requests for permission should be addressed in advance to the University Police Department where they will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis in accordance with State and federal law and the safety of the University community.


    Given that the statement appears on the general UVA Police website, and not in a student/employee handbook, makes it look like a general ban to me. However, they'll probably argue that the second paragraph (above) makes it somehow less than a general ban. So the fundamental question is, how will they deal with "requests for permission?" IANAL, but I would argue that they couldn't deny them to anyone who is legally eligible to own a firearm without exposing themselves to a lawsuit. Wanna be a test case?

    Wahoowa.
    Asking permission to excercise a "right"? We don't need no stinkin' permission to enjoy our rights......

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    Eeyore wrote:
    So the fundamental question is, how will they deal with "requests for permission?"
    You need to ask?! I'm sure they've got a nice big "REJECTED" rubber stamp all ready to go.

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    Va. Code
    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality ...

    I believe the universities are not localities, and so not preempted. Really, really sucks. IANAL, maybe 'locality' doesn't mean what Webster's says it means?

    C.

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    67GT390FB wrote:
    SNIP
    "The University, as with any other public or private entity, cannot assure or guarantee a crime free living or working environment. Accordingly, it is the responsibility of members of the University community to act in a security conscious manner and to avoid actions which jeopardize their security as well as the security of others. Members of the faculty, staff, and student body should report all crimes, hazards, emergencies, or dangerous situations to the Police Department. "

    Well, right there they tell you to avoid going around unarmed.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I OC on UVA grounds frequently. No problems so far... I'll head down there in a bit and go for a walk

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    I presume you are either not a student or will not be for long. Have fun, I'll do the same at VT this weekend.

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    I have OC'd on campus many times, nothing has ever happened. This all started because I am thinking about trying to CC into the football game on saturday, to see what happens, if I get through, I want to try to OC at the next home game that I can go to.

    The way I look at it, I carry everywhere else that I go, why should a football game be any different. Oh and yes I have a CHP.

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    Well, my email is sent, I am looking forward to their response.

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    Here is the reply I got:

    Mr. [Redacted],

    Thank you for your e-mail. The University expects compliance with this policy by anyone using University facilities including students, faculty and staff on Grounds or other University property.

    Best Regards,

    Michael Gibson
    Chief of Police
    University of Virginia


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    muzz3256 wrote:
    Here is the reply I got:

    Mr. [Redacted],

    Thank you for your e-mail. The University expects compliance with this policy by anyone using University facilities including students, faculty and staff on Grounds or other University property.

    Best Regards,

    Michael Gibson
    Chief of Police
    University of Virginia
    Poilicy is NOT law. Sure they can ask you to leave and if you don't = Trespass. They cannot procecute you for complying to the Law but ask you to leave for not complying with their POLICIES.

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    Here is the reply I got:

    Mr. [Redacted],

    Thank you for your e-mail. The University expects compliance with this policy by anyone using University facilities including students, faculty and staff on Grounds or other University property.

    Best Regards,

    Michael Gibson
    Chief of Police
    University of Virginia
    Poilicy is NOT law. Sure they can ask you to leave and if you don't = Trespass. They cannot procecute you for complying to the Law but ask you to leave for not complying with their POLICIES.
    I don't think they can even charge someone with trespass, since this is only an option for a private organization. UVA is public, so its policies should be pre empted by state firearms laws. Chet Szymecki OC'd to a York County school board meeting and all the deputies could do was watch him. He was a public citizen in a public place, so how could he have been "trespassing?

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    muzz3256 wrote:
    Here is the reply I got:

    Mr. [Redacted],

    Thank you for your e-mail. The University expects compliance with this policy by anyone using University facilities including students, faculty and staff on Grounds or other University property.

    Best Regards,

    Michael Gibson
    Chief of Police
    University of Virginia
    Great! As a non-student, non-staff, non-faculty I guess I can carry all I want!
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Eeyore wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    Here is the reply I got:

    Mr. [Redacted],

    Thank you for your e-mail. The University expects compliance with this policy by anyone using University facilities including students, faculty and staff on Grounds or other University property.

    Best Regards,

    Michael Gibson
    Chief of Police
    University of Virginia
    Great! As a non-student, non-staff, non-faculty I guess I can carry all I want!
    That has become my outlook on it!

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    CPerdue wrote:
    Va. Code
    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality ...

    I believe the universities are not localities, and so not preempted. Really, really sucks. IANAL, maybe 'locality' doesn't mean what Webster's says it means?

    C.
    You and I can carry concealed and open on the public college and university campuses in Virginia as long as we are not students and employed by the institution. By law they can only make rules governing conduct of students, faculty and staff.

    Here is the entire statute. I believe the section I hilighted is pertinent to colleges which are defined here as localities by this phrase. It is the same reason the airport authority in NorVa cannot ban firearms in the parking lot and in your vehicle on the roadways as they tried doing in the past.

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.
    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.
    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.
    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.
    B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.
    (1987, c. 629, § 15.1-29.15; 1988, c. 392; 1997, cc. 550, 587; 2002, c. 484; 2003, c. 943; 2004, cc. 837, 923.)

    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    Dutch Uncle wrote:
    I don't think they can even charge someone with trespass, since this is only an option for a private organization. UVA is public, so its policies should be pre empted by state firearms laws. Chet Szymecki OC'd to a York County school board meeting and all the deputies could do was watch him. He was a public citizen in a public place, so how could he have been "trespassing?
    York Conty school board had their meetings in the York Council chambers and therefore the meetings did not take place on school property. I believe that if school board meetings take place on school/school board property the you cannot carry at all.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    mobeewan wrote:
    CPerdue wrote:
    Va. Code
    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality ...

    I believe the universities are not localities, and so not preempted. Really, really sucks. IANAL, maybe 'locality' doesn't mean what Webster's says it means?

    C.
    You and I can carry concealed and open on the public college and university campuses in Virginia as long as we are not students and employed by the institution. By law they can only make rules governing conduct of students, faculty and staff.

    Here is the entire statute. I believe the section I hilighted is pertinent to colleges which are defined here as localities by this phrase. It is the same reason the airport authority in NorVa cannot ban firearms in the parking lot and in your vehicle on the roadways as they tried doing in the past.

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.
    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.
    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.
    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.
    B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.
    (1987, c. 629, § 15.1-29.15; 1988, c. 392; 1997, cc. 550, 587; 2002, c. 484; 2003, c. 943; 2004, cc. 837, 923.)
    Agree, but keep in mind this doesn't apply to VCU. It is the only public university in VA where CC is specifically forbidden by Virginia's concealed carry law.:X

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    This is short enough that I will paste the whole thing ...
    OP. NO. 05-078

    EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS: GENERAL PROVISIONS — UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA – BOARD OF VISITORS.

    CRIMES AND OFFENSES GENERALLY: CRIMES INVOLVING HEALTH AND SAFETY – OTHER ILLEGAL WEAPONS – DANGEROUS USE OF FIREARMS OR OTHER WEAPONS.
    Governing boards of Virginia’s public colleges and universities may not impose general prohibition on carrying of concealed weapons by permitted individuals. Pursuant to specific grants of statutory authority, however, colleges and universities may regulate conduct of students and employees to prohibit them from carrying concealed weapons on campus.

    The Honorable R. Creigh Deeds
    Member, Senate of Virginia
    January 4, 2006

    Issue Presented

    You ask whether Virginia law allows public colleges and universities to prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons by permitted individuals onto public property.

    Response

    It is my opinion that the governing boards of Virginia’s public colleges and universities may not impose a general prohibition on the carrying of concealed weapons by permitted individuals. Pursuant to specific grants of statutory authority, however, it is my opinion that colleges and universities may regulate the conduct of students and employees to prohibit them from carrying concealed weapons on campus.

    Background

    You report that one of your constituents, an employee of the University of Virginia Medical Center, is the holder of a valid concealed weapons permit and would like to carry his firearm to and from the hospital, his place of employment. You further relate that you understand the University of Virginia has a policy prohibiting the carrying of weapons on campus.

    Applicable Law and Discussion

    The right of a citizen, with a properly issued permit, to carry a concealed handgun is considered universal within the Commonwealth, subject to limited constraints.1 The General Assembly specifically has set out those places where the carrying of a concealed handgun is prohibited: (1) places of worship;2 (2) courthouses;3 (3) elementary through high schools;4 (4) places licensed for on-premises alcoholic beverage consumption;5 and (4) such private property as may be prohibited by the owner.6 The right to carry openly has not been revoked by the General Assembly.7

    Additionally, someone to whom a court has granted a concealed carry permit already has undergone an extensive criminal background check.8 Section 18.2-308(E) necessarily requires that the court is satisfied that the applicant has not received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment within five years prior to the application, is not a user or distributor of controlled substances, is not an illegal alien, is not a fugitive from justice, and has not been convicted of any assault, sexual battery, stalking, or any of the other offenses detailed in subsection E.

    It is well established in Virginia that a university, through its board, "‘has not only the powers expressly conferred upon it, but it also has the implied power to do whatever is reasonably necessary to effectuate the powers expressly granted.’"9 This broad authority does not, however, supersede statutory or case law, public policy, or explicit statements of the General Assembly regarding specific topics.10

    The powers expressly conferred and possessed by the governing body of an educational institution include the authority "[t]o establish rules and regulations for the conduct of students while attending such institution"11 and "[t]o establish rules and regulations for the employment of professors, teachers, instructors, and all other employees and provide for their dismissal for failure to abide by such rules and regulations."12

    The University of Virginia has promulgated a "Security and Firearms Policy," which provides that "[t]he possession, storage, or use of any kind of ammunition, firearms, fireworks, explosives, air rifles and air pistols on University-owned or operated property, without the expressed written permission of the University Police, is prohibited."13

    It is my opinion that the safe operation of the campus allows regulation of, or under limited circumstances, prohibition of, firearms by any persons attending events on campus, visiting dormitories or classroom buildings, attending specific events as invitees, or under any circumstance permitted by law. The universal prohibition of firearms by properly permitted persons other than students, faculty, administration, or employees, however, is not allowed under law. A board of visitors has responsibility for the protection of the students enrolled at their university. At the same time, the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States14 and by Article I, § 13, of the Constitution of Virginia,15 which protect all citizens, may not be summarily dismissed for transient reasons.

    In light of the General Assembly’s specific statements regarding the limits of carrying concealed handguns and the grant of authority to colleges and universities to regulate the conduct of students and employees, it is my opinion that neither a board of visitors nor a president of a public college or university may infer authority from its enabling legislation to adopt a universal prohibition of carrying concealed handguns by holders with valid permits.

    Conclusion

    Accordingly, it is my opinion that the governing boards of Virginia’s public colleges and universities may not impose a general prohibition on the carrying of concealed weapons by permitted individuals. Pursuant to specific grants of statutory authority, however, it is my opinion that colleges and universities may regulate the conduct of students and employees to prohibit them from carrying concealed weapons on campus.

    1-See generally Va. Code Ann. § 18.2-308 (Supp. 2005).
    2-See § 18.2-283 (2004).
    3-See § 18.2-283.1 (2004).
    4-See § 18.2-308.1(B) (Supp. 2005).
    5-See § 18.2-308(J3).
    6-See § 18.2-308(O).
    7-See § 18.2-287.4 (Supp. 2005) (prohibiting carrying of certain large ammunition capacity weapons); see also § 18.2-308 (prohibiting carrying of concealed weapons without permit).
    8-See § 18.2-308(D).
    9-Goodreau v. Rector & Visitors of Univ. of Va., 116 F.Supp.2d 694, 703 (W.D. Va. 2000) (quoting Batcheller v. Commonwealth, 176 Va. 109, 123, 10 S.E.2d 529, 535 (1940)).
    10-See Va. Code Ann. § 23-69 (2003) (providing that board of visitors "shall be at all times subject to the control of the General Assembly"); see also § 23-76 (2003) (providing that board of visitors may "make such regulations as they deem expedient, not being contrary to law" (emphasis added)); Jones v. Commonwealth, 267 Va. 218, 223, 591 S.E.2d 72, 75 (2004) (noting that University of Virginia is governmental entity under control of General Assembly). 11-Section 23-9.2:3(A)(2) (Supp. 2005).
    12-Section 23-9.2:3(A)(5).
    13-University of Virginia, Financial and Administrative Policies, Section XV.J.1 ("Security and Firearms Policy"), ¶ 2.0 (Dec. 4, 1995), available at http://www.virginia.edu/finance/polproc/pol/xvj1.html .
    14-"[T]he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." U.S. Const. amend. II.
    15-"[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed[.]" Va. Const. art. I, § 13.
    Sorry about the formatting (WTF?). Anyway, he comes down pretty hard in the middle about regulating at gatherings, etc., but backs off in the conclusion.

    C.

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    Mobeewan wrote:
    <snip> The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency,...
    Unfortunately, 23-114, which creates the board of visitors and hence the university is a corporation. Again, IANAL, but I'm afraid this is just the kind of nit picking difference that matters.

    C.

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