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Thread: Shoulda Said

  1. #1
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    Of course, part of being prepared fornext time is an examination of what could have been done better this time.

    Lets hear the ideasfellas. If it had been you,what would you have said? Pick a point that stands out in your mind and give a suggestion.

    For example,near the end the officer says, "You’ve been sitting here for ten minutes on your own."

    The drivershoulda said, "If you thinkI'll let youinfringe my 4th and 5th Amend. rights to save ten minutes, you've got another think coming."

    Here's the link and transcript for reference:

    http://tinyurl.com/2n3j96


    Traffic Stop 9-8-07

    Date/Time: 9/8/07 2:54 PM

    Location: Fairfax County, VA


    Officer Buckholtz: How you doing? Got your license and registration on you, please?

    Driver: Yeah.

    Officer Buckholtz: Driver's license?

    Driver: Um hmm.

    Driver: Why did you pull me over, officer?

    Officer Buckholtz: Because you have a brake light out on the left hand side, there.

    Driver: OK.

    Officer Buckholtz: Do you have a driver’s license?

    Driver: Yeah, I’m getting it now.

    Officer Buckholtz: Huh?

    Driver: I’m getting it out now.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Stay in the car. I’ll be right with you. OK?

    Driver: Yes, sir.

    [next few lines about address redacted from audio]

    Officer Buckholtz: Still live on _________?

    Driver: I’m sorry?

    Officer Buckholtz: You still live on _______?

    Driver: Yeah. Its just back up there at ___________.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. [Officer Buckholtz takes information back to cruiser.]


    [Move slider to 0:06:14 toskiplistening totraffic go bywhile officer is in patrol car.]

    [At 0:05:30 into audio recording driver turns on radio. At 0:05:39 into audio recording, driver makes a verbal time stamp]

    Driver: Its about 3 pm. 3:01 pm. Been here about three minutes.

    [Move slider to 0:06:14. At this point Officer Buckholtz returns from the cruiser.]

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Do you have your weapon on you, sir?

    Driver: Yes, sir. I do.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Why didn’t you tell me that initially?

    Driver: Because there’s no requirement to notify in Virginia.

    Officer Buckholtz: Correct. You are correct. But you know what? When I brought that on my computer, and I see that, and had you gotten out of the car, you would have been shot. Without a doubt.

    Driver: That’s a little bit of a …

    Officer Buckholtz: Without a doubt.

    Driver: Am I getting a warning or a citation?

    Officer Buckholtz: You are getting a warning, sir.

    Driver: Well, thank you.

    Officer Buckholtz: So that may be something you want to divulge when you, uh, when you get pulled over from now on. OK?

    Driver: The, uh, that’s a rather strong circumstance for a citizen who’s passed a backround check in order to get that CHP.

    Officer Buckholtz: I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not arguing with you about that. But what I’m saying is…

    Driver: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You are.

    Officer Buckholtz: If I know there is a gun in the car, there are different parameters that I deal with. OK?

    Driver: Sir, um. [Looks at Warning ticket] Buckholtz?

    Officer Buckholtz: Yes, sir.

    Driver: Oh, you and I have spoken before, I think.

    Officer Buckholtz: I don’t know if we have or not.

    Driver: Alright. The, um, you just criticized me for not notifying you. You’re…

    Officer Buckholtz: Your did. You’re right. Its not required by law. I said, I made, I simply made a suggestion that it would probably be a good idea.

    Driver: No, you didn’t simply make a suggestion, sir.

    Officer Buckholtz: I certainly did.

    Driver: You criticized me for it.

    Officer Buckholtz: I didn’t criticize anything. I said that would probably be a good idea because had you gotten out of the car you probably would have been shot is what I said. And it’s a suggestion. That’s what I said. It’s a suggestion. If you don’t want to that’s completely your perogative. Its simply a suggestion.

    Driver: Officer Buckholtz?

    Officer Buckholtz: Yes, sir.

    Driver: You didn’t suggest it.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK, well that’s how I [unintelligible] a suggestion

    Driver: Your, your, your tone of voice indicated that you were clearly criticizing me for not notifying you.

    Officer Buckholtz: It wasn’t a criticize. It was…well that wasn’t my intention, sir. It was merely a, um, suggestion that you, that would probably be a good idea for you to notify a law enforcement officer if there is a weapon in the vehicle.

    Driver: I disagree, sir. I have…

    Officer Buckholtz: That’s your perogative to disagree.

    Driver: I have a CHP. I passed a backround check to get that. So why is a police officer worried about a citizen who’s passed a backround check?

    Officer Buckholtz: Who is carrying a gun?

    Driver: Yes, sir.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK.

    Driver: Why is a officer worried about…

    Officer Buckholtz: Put yourself in my position.

    Driver: …with a citizen who has…

    Officer Buckholtz: Well, just put yourself in my position.

    Driver: OK.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK. You’re an officer back here…

    Driver: Right.

    Officer Buckholtz: You don’t know that, that I have a gun.

    Driver: Well, wait a minute. Police…

    [Both try to talk at same time.]

    Officer Buckholtz: You wanted to play the role.

    Driver: Alright.

    Officer Buckholtz: You don’t, you don’t know that I have a gun. OK? You’re sitting there…

    [Both try to talk at same time.]

    Driver: You as a police officer…

    Officer Buckholtz: …comes up and says he’s potentially got a gun. And you start stepping out of your car. What do I do?

    Driver: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I can see your soft body armor.

    Officer Buckholtz: Right.

    Driver: You assume you are going to meet people who are armed.

    Officer Buckholtz: Correct.

    Driver: Alright. And do you…

    Officer Buckholtz: I don’t expect to get shot at, though.

    Driver: Do you, do your, do your protocols not require you to approach my car right where you’re standing.

    Officer Buckholtz: Negative. I can approach you where my partner’s at over here.

    Driver: Who’s behind the window and the line of fire where if I have a firearm and intend to…

    Officer Buckholtz: Now you’re getting into tactics.

    Driver: But that’s, that’s where your tactics are.

    Officer Buckholtz: Well, what if you’re left handed?

    Driver: Oh, yeah. By the time [motion with empty left hand out window, making a "pistol" with fingers to show difficulty for left-hander to take officer under fire] here…

    Officer Buckholtz: You know. [Unintelligle—both talking]…find out already?

    Driver: So, if I….

    Officer Buckholtz: What if you have it in between the seats?

    Driver: If I send a Freedom of Information Act request for your General Orders on how to perform traffic stops…

    Officer Buckholtz: You don’t even have to. You can go down to the library and get it.

    Driver: OK. And there will be nothing in there about you expecting and being ready for an armed encounter.

    Officer Buckholtz: We’re always ready for an armed encounter.

    Driver: Exactly.

    Officer Buckholtz: Which is what I’m saying. Had you gotten out of that car. Now, knowing that you’re armed…

    Driver: um hmm

    Officer Buckholtz: …you probably would have been shot. That’s what I’m saying.

    Driver: Well, thank you for announcing in advance that you would, uh, infringe on my 5th Amendment rights. [deprived of life without due process of law]

    Officer Buckholtz: And how is that?

    Driver: You’re shooting at a citizen who is getting out of the car…

    Officer Buckholtz: No, no, no. An armed subject.

    Driver: …with no weapons in his hands. Aah, that's real good.

    Officer Buckholtz: You were told to stay in your car.

    Driver:: Yes. And you noticed that I observed that instruction very carefully, didn’t you?

    Officer Buckholtz: Absolutely. Absolutely. I’m very, I’m very glad you did.

    Driver: So, so, why the criticism?

    Officer Buckholtz: It wasn’t a criticism? It was a suggestion, sir.

    Driver: Well, that it wasn’t.

    Officer Buckholtz: Well, you can perceive it any way you like. It was meant as a criticism. Or not, as uh, as a uh, you know…[I speak, and being closer to the recorder drown part of Buckholtz’s response]…meant as a criticism for it.

    Driver: Officer Buckholtz. I think you, I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere with this conversation.

    Officer Buckholtz: I d…, I agree. We probably won’t.

    Driver: Am I free to go?

    Officer Buckholtz: Yes, sir. You have been the whole time.

    Driver: Well, that’s not for sure true. You told me to sit right here. And wait.

    Officer Buckholtz: After, well what did, what did I tell you after your li..., after I gave your license back. [unintelligible]…go.

    Driver: You did tell me to go. Yes. Very good.

    Officer Buckholtz: You’ve been sitting here for ten minutes on your own.

    Driver: Ha. Ha. Yeah, right.

    Officer Buckholtz: OK? I thank you, sir.

    Driver: Bye, bye. [end of encounter][/i]

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    As little as possible is always good rule of thumb. I've been pondering the tactic of playing dumb and let the LEO explain himself.

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    longwatch wrote:
    As little as possible is always good rule of thumb. I've been pondering the tactic of playing dumb and let the LEO explain himself.
    Hmmmm. Just a few questions to nudge him along and keep him talking and adding to the evidence? Hmmmm. That could produce some very interesting results.

    "Gee officer, I didn't realize I could be shot for that. What else could happen to someone for failing to notify an LEO?"

    Another one. "Well, I just didn't think to tell you. Is it required to tell you?"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I think you see where I'm going.

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    Yes! The Socratic method, isn't it?

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Yes! The Socratic method, isn't it?
    Yes, it is. It's a good way to help others understand themselves, but more importantly in this case, it puts the ball back in his court, and takes you out of the defensive posture for the moment.



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    "No, I don't have it with me, Officer. Its being held as evidence against the last police officer who unlawfully seized it." (Joke, folks. Not a literal suggestion.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    First place:
    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Do you have your weapon on you, sir?
    Driver: Yes, sir. I do.
    Officer Buckholtz: OK. Why didn’t you tell me that initially?
    Driver: It seemed irrelevant. This is a traffic stop, is it not?

    fficer Buckholtz: So that may be something you want to divulge when you, uh, when you get pulled over from now on. OK?
    Driver: The, uh, that’s a rather strong circumstance for a citizen who’s passed a backround check in order to get that CHP.
    Officer Buckholtz: I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not arguing with you about that. But what I’m saying is…
    Driver: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You are.
    I see this as the driver starting to become belligerent. Yes, the officer went beyond his authority here. But telling him what he's saying, even if true, is not generally the way to make points.

    Officer: So that may be something you want to divulge when you, uh, when you get pulled over from now on. OK?
    Driver: I might. I doubt it, but I might.

    Driver: Oh, you and I have spoken before, I think.
    Officer Buckholtz: I don’t know if we have or not.
    Driver: Alright. The, um, you just criticized me for not notifying you. You’re…
    Officer Buckholtz: Your did. You’re right. Its not required by law. I said, I made, I simply made a suggestion that it would probably be a good idea.
    Driver: No, you didn’t simply make a suggestion, sir.
    Officer Buckholtz: I certainly did. Driver: You criticized me for it.

    Again, driver seems to be doing what we often criticize police officers for ... putting words in someone's mouth. It's different to say "I am offended by your suggestion, since this is a traffic stop." than it is to say "No, you didn't simply make a suggestion." whether or not s/he added "sir" to the end.

    JMHO, the driver made more of this than was necessary. I am NOT taking the officer's side; he too was in the wrong.

    And, as I've said before, it's very easy for those of us who sit in front of our computers with time to think - much easier than the guy who has an armed officer standing at his window.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    "Fairfax County Police, Fire, and Rescue. What is the location of your emergency?"

    "Uh, Fairfax County Parkway, northbound, near Stringfellow Rd."

    "What is your emergency?"

    "I'm being pulled over by a police officer..."

    "Are you asking if it is a police impersonator?"

    "No, no, you don't understand! Please tell the police officer right away that I have a concealed handgun permit! I DON"T WANT TO GET SHOT! Please tell him! Please!"



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    "Fairfax County Police, Fire, and Rescue. What is the location of your emergency?"

    "Uh, Fairfax County Parkway, northbound, near Stringfellow Rd."

    "What is your emergency?"

    "I'm being pulled over by a police officer..."

    "Are you asking if it is a police impersonator?"

    "No, no, you don't understand! Please tell the police officer right away that I have a concealed handgun permit! I DON"T WANT TO GET SHOT! Please tell him! Please!"


    ROTFL!
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    That's be funnier if it wasn't possibly needed....
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Yes! The Socratic method, isn't it?
    More than 'The Socratic method', it is Socratic irony - feigning ignorance to make a point.

    Does anyone keep statistics on the posting rate here? Thirty pages in one thread, in particular, makes for a lot of reading while catching up!

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Thirty pages in one thread, in particular, makes for a lot of reading while catching up!
    That's why its important not to let yourself get behind, Doug!

  14. #14
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    O.K. you asked:

    This is the only part I would have ommitted -

    Driver: Am I free to go?

    Officer Buckholtz: Yes, sir. You have been the whole time.

    Driver: Well, that’s not for sure true. You told me to sit right here. And wait.

    Officer Buckholtz: After, well what did, what did I tell you after your li..., after I gave your license back. [unintelligible]…go.

    Driver: You did tell me to go. Yes. Very good.

    Officer Buckholtz: You’ve been sitting here for ten minutes on your own.

    Driver: Ha. Ha. Yeah, right.

    Save the "Am I being detained bit" for situations where the LEO is trying to keep you talking when you have chosen not to. In this particular situation, you chose to carry on a conversation with the LEO....you can't just pull the "Am I being detained" card just cause the conversation isn't going your way.

    Next time, maybe replace:
    Driver: That’s a little bit of a …
    with
    Driver: I wasn't aware that an LEO could use deadly force merely when an individual is in possession of holstered firearm. Maybe I should do some research on the Fairfax PD rules for the use of Deadly Force. Have a nice day!

    And like Tess said, I am not sticking up for the officer, he was wrong too!!!

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