Malum Prohibitum
Regular Member
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Are schools and colleges off limits in Montana?
Are schools and colleges off limits in Montana?
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Are Schools Off Limits in Montana?
- Thread starter Malum Prohibitum
- Start date
Mattsbox99
New member
imported post
Yes. No firearms are allowed on any state property...whether open carry or concealed.
Yes. No firearms are allowed on any state property...whether open carry or concealed.
Mattsbox99
New member
imported post
Yes. No firearms are allowed on any state property...whether open carry or concealed.
Yes. No firearms are allowed on any state property...whether open carry or concealed.
Malum Prohibitum
Regular Member
imported post
Mattsbox99 wrote:
What about private schools?
Isn't the street state property?
Mattsbox99 wrote:
What about private schools?
Isn't the street state property?
Mattsbox99
New member
imported post
Private property is as always regulated by the owner of that property... Montana's open carry law very specifically spells out that schools, banks, and inside of any state or federal building is off limits...
Private property is as always regulated by the owner of that property... Montana's open carry law very specifically spells out that schools, banks, and inside of any state or federal building is off limits...
VAopencarry
Regular Member
imported post
45-8-328. Carrying concealed weapon in prohibited place -- penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon in a prohibited place if the person purposely or knowingly carries a concealed weapon in:
(a) portions of a building used for state or local government offices and related areas in the building that have been restricted;
(b) a bank, credit union, savings and loan institution, or similar institution during the institution's normal business hours. It is not an offense under this section to carry a concealed weapon while:
(i) using an institution's drive-up window, automatic teller machine, or unstaffed night depository; or
(ii) at or near a branch office of an institution in a mall, grocery store, or other place unless the person is inside the enclosure used for the institution's financial services or is using the institution's financial services.
(c) a room in which alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed, and consumed under a license issued under Title 16 for the sale of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
(2) It is not a defense that the person had a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon. A person convicted of the offense shall be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months or fined an amount not to exceed $500, or both.
In case anyone reads this old thread I wanted to correct Mattbox99's mostly unsubstantiated and incorrect information.
Here is the 'school' prohibition,
http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-361.htm
applies only to the buildings and does not include colleges.
I would conclude a concealed carry permit gets around the school restriction as it does not have this "It is not a defense that the person had a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon." included in the section, as it does in the 'prohibited places' section.
45-8-328. Carrying concealed weapon in prohibited place -- penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon in a prohibited place if the person purposely or knowingly carries a concealed weapon in:
(a) portions of a building used for state or local government offices and related areas in the building that have been restricted;
(b) a bank, credit union, savings and loan institution, or similar institution during the institution's normal business hours. It is not an offense under this section to carry a concealed weapon while:
(i) using an institution's drive-up window, automatic teller machine, or unstaffed night depository; or
(ii) at or near a branch office of an institution in a mall, grocery store, or other place unless the person is inside the enclosure used for the institution's financial services or is using the institution's financial services.
(c) a room in which alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed, and consumed under a license issued under Title 16 for the sale of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
(2) It is not a defense that the person had a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon. A person convicted of the offense shall be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months or fined an amount not to exceed $500, or both.
In case anyone reads this old thread I wanted to correct Mattbox99's mostly unsubstantiated and incorrect information.
Here is the 'school' prohibition,
http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-361.htm
applies only to the buildings and does not include colleges.
huh? Where exactly in the Montana Annotated Code is this??
I would conclude a concealed carry permit gets around the school restriction as it does not have this "It is not a defense that the person had a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon." included in the section, as it does in the 'prohibited places' section.
phoglund
Regular Member
imported post
VAOpenCarry,
I don't think I'd interpret things quite that way. I suspect you would lose that argument in court. I for one don't plan on testing it. Merely the fact there is no statement having a concealed weapons permit is no excuse does not make it one.
A more relevant MCA section states:
"45-8-361. Possession or allowing possession of weapon in school building -- exceptions -- penalties -- seizure and forfeiture or return authorized -- definitions. (1) A person commits the offense of possession of a weapon in a school building if the person purposely and knowingly possesses, carries, or stores a weapon in a school building."
The exceptions of the above section says nothing about concealed weapons permit holders. The implication is clear, knowingly carrying a weapon in a school is commitment of an offense.
The good news is that Montana essentially has done an end run around the Federal "Gun Free Zone School Zones Act of 1990" by the inclusion of this little gem in the MCA:
"45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act."
Basically the Federal Act said something about no guns within 1,000 feet of a school unless individually licensed by the State within which the school is located. MCA 45-8-360 effectively says that if you can own a gun legally, you have an individual license within the borders of Montana.
Montana has a history of thumbing its collective nose at the Feds. The now defunct 55 mph. speed limit was another such example.
VAOpenCarry,
I don't think I'd interpret things quite that way. I suspect you would lose that argument in court. I for one don't plan on testing it. Merely the fact there is no statement having a concealed weapons permit is no excuse does not make it one.
A more relevant MCA section states:
"45-8-361. Possession or allowing possession of weapon in school building -- exceptions -- penalties -- seizure and forfeiture or return authorized -- definitions. (1) A person commits the offense of possession of a weapon in a school building if the person purposely and knowingly possesses, carries, or stores a weapon in a school building."
The exceptions of the above section says nothing about concealed weapons permit holders. The implication is clear, knowingly carrying a weapon in a school is commitment of an offense.
The good news is that Montana essentially has done an end run around the Federal "Gun Free Zone School Zones Act of 1990" by the inclusion of this little gem in the MCA:
"45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act."
Basically the Federal Act said something about no guns within 1,000 feet of a school unless individually licensed by the State within which the school is located. MCA 45-8-360 effectively says that if you can own a gun legally, you have an individual license within the borders of Montana.
Montana has a history of thumbing its collective nose at the Feds. The now defunct 55 mph. speed limit was another such example.
Malum Prohibitum
Regular Member
imported post
Does 45-8-361 include colleges? It says schools. Is that every school?
Does 45-8-361 include colleges? It says schools. Is that every school?
Malum Prohibitum
Regular Member
imported post
Nevermind. I see that it does not include colleges.
[align=left](5) As used in this section:[/align]
[align=left](a) "school building" means all buildings owned or leased by a local school district that are used for instruction or for student activities. The term does not include a home school provided for in 20-5-109.[/align]
[align=left][/align]
Nevermind. I see that it does not include colleges.
[align=left](5) As used in this section:[/align]
[align=left](a) "school building" means all buildings owned or leased by a local school district that are used for instruction or for student activities. The term does not include a home school provided for in 20-5-109.[/align]
[align=left][/align]
phoglund
Regular Member
imported post
Just a note. I've spoken to the Montana State University Police about this subject. They believe it to be illegal to carry on campus. How it will play out in court does seem debatable.
Just a note. I've spoken to the Montana State University Police about this subject. They believe it to be illegal to carry on campus. How it will play out in court does seem debatable.
Malum Prohibitum
Regular Member
imported post
phoglund wrote:
I do not know about Montana, but I NEVER ask police officers in Georgia the law. 15 different officers will give you 15 different answers.
phoglund wrote:
I do not know about Montana, but I NEVER ask police officers in Georgia the law. 15 different officers will give you 15 different answers.
Malum Prohibitum
Regular Member
imported post
Anyway, I am sure colleges and universities are not owned or leased by local school districts! :lol:
Anyway, I am sure colleges and universities are not owned or leased by local school districts! :lol:
phoglund
Regular Member
imported post
You are right about how knowledgeable police officers are about laws but it is instructive to ask I think because it gives a certain insight to their mindset on the subject not to mention they are the folks who will make the decision to arrest you or not...irregardless of whether the charges stick in court.
I prefer to avoid court altogether if possible.
I may take another's suggestion and contact the State Attorney General about specific laws regarding the carry of firearms on Montana University System campuses.
You are right about how knowledgeable police officers are about laws but it is instructive to ask I think because it gives a certain insight to their mindset on the subject not to mention they are the folks who will make the decision to arrest you or not...irregardless of whether the charges stick in court.
I prefer to avoid court altogether if possible.
I may take another's suggestion and contact the State Attorney General about specific laws regarding the carry of firearms on Montana University System campuses.
imported post
Not the law, but here's the MSU policy page:
http://www.montana.edu/wwwmsupd/firearm.shtml
Much better than University of California, for example.
gridboy
Not the law, but here's the MSU policy page:
http://www.montana.edu/wwwmsupd/firearm.shtml
Much better than University of California, for example.
gridboy
UTOC-45-44
Regular Member
imported post
Mattsbox99 wrote:
OK, my mind IS made up. I thought I always wanted to move to Montana and but this is ridiculus. Here in Utah we can carry at all state property, except where it may be considered a "secured area".
76-10-523.5. Compliance with rules for secure facilities.
Any person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm under Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapons, shall comply with any rule established for secure facilities pursuant to Sections 53B-3-103, 76-8-311.1, 76-8-311.3, and 78-7-6 and shall be subject to any penalty provided in those sections.
Amended by Chapter 323, 2002 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C051.ZIP 1,871 Bytes
[line]
Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page
Last revised: Friday, February 08, 2008
TJ
Mattsbox99 wrote:
OK, my mind IS made up. I thought I always wanted to move to Montana and but this is ridiculus. Here in Utah we can carry at all state property, except where it may be considered a "secured area".
76-10-523.5. Compliance with rules for secure facilities.
Any person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm under Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapons, shall comply with any rule established for secure facilities pursuant to Sections 53B-3-103, 76-8-311.1, 76-8-311.3, and 78-7-6 and shall be subject to any penalty provided in those sections.
Amended by Chapter 323, 2002 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C051.ZIP 1,871 Bytes
[line]
Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page
Last revised: Friday, February 08, 2008
TJ
imported post
Mattsbox99 wrote:
I'm not sure I would quote that as meaning any state property, it's legal to hunt on state forest land, AFIK, and on land that is held by the state as timber assets for schools, etc. I think that's only concerning property that is in actual use - e.g. with buildings on it, DOT Garages and compounds. etc. I have a set of MCA here at the house and I'd like to see the exact wording of the source where you got that statement. I'm new to these forums, so I'm not trying to insult you, but I lived in Missouri for a while, if you get my drift.
Mattsbox99 wrote:
I'm not sure I would quote that as meaning any state property, it's legal to hunt on state forest land, AFIK, and on land that is held by the state as timber assets for schools, etc. I think that's only concerning property that is in actual use - e.g. with buildings on it, DOT Garages and compounds. etc. I have a set of MCA here at the house and I'd like to see the exact wording of the source where you got that statement. I'm new to these forums, so I'm not trying to insult you, but I lived in Missouri for a while, if you get my drift.
MontanaCZ
Regular Member
imported post
MSU and UofM have both stated that they will not allow weapons on campus. MSU was changed after VT incident. Other colleges may be different.
Montana has some odd CCW laws, but the OC laws are pretty good. A lot of the odd stuff is left over from the 1800's.
For instance, a woman's purse is considered luggage, and carrying a weapon in luggage is permissable without a CCW.
-CZ
MSU and UofM have both stated that they will not allow weapons on campus. MSU was changed after VT incident. Other colleges may be different.
Montana has some odd CCW laws, but the OC laws are pretty good. A lot of the odd stuff is left over from the 1800's.
For instance, a woman's purse is considered luggage, and carrying a weapon in luggage is permissable without a CCW.
-CZ
MontanaLaura
New member
imported post
It's good to know that as I don't have a CCW and am not sure I can get one due to the local yokel gendarme. My husband had one that just expired but we aren't going to renew his....due to a matter of him shooting a dog in our backyard pasture (in the town of Ekalaka) that was killing one of my expensive reg. dairy goats. We believe that if he puts in for it, that it won't be approved due to him getting a misdemeanor ticket. We fought the ticket, but the lawyer we hired out of Miles City sold us down the river. So the fine was $100 and 2 days in jail (suspended) as long as he doesn't fire any gun in town. No problem! I'll shoot any dogs killing my goats.....I did earn an "Expert" ribbon (Marksmanship in the Army?) while on active duty in the Air Force. I'm still accurate.
However, I had an incident last Aug that made me aware that it's stupid to be without a weapon. I go to MontanaFair to show my goats. We had just got a used diesal pickup in Sheridan, WY that turned out to be a hunk of junk on that trip. It quit on me, while driving, about 25 miles east of Billings at 12:30 am (the 3d time that day). I left Ekalaka at 1 pm and should have been in Billings around 6:30-7 pm. Cars/semis passed by for about 45 mins. Then a car with 2 men slowed and looked like they were going to pull in front of me. I waved them off while holding an old fashioned tire iron in front of me. I don't think it looks like a weapon, but they took off fortunately. I plan on going again this Aug (in a different truck) and want to be prepared.
MTLaura
Howdy from s.e MT!
It's good to know that as I don't have a CCW and am not sure I can get one due to the local yokel gendarme. My husband had one that just expired but we aren't going to renew his....due to a matter of him shooting a dog in our backyard pasture (in the town of Ekalaka) that was killing one of my expensive reg. dairy goats. We believe that if he puts in for it, that it won't be approved due to him getting a misdemeanor ticket. We fought the ticket, but the lawyer we hired out of Miles City sold us down the river. So the fine was $100 and 2 days in jail (suspended) as long as he doesn't fire any gun in town. No problem! I'll shoot any dogs killing my goats.....I did earn an "Expert" ribbon (Marksmanship in the Army?) while on active duty in the Air Force. I'm still accurate.
However, I had an incident last Aug that made me aware that it's stupid to be without a weapon. I go to MontanaFair to show my goats. We had just got a used diesal pickup in Sheridan, WY that turned out to be a hunk of junk on that trip. It quit on me, while driving, about 25 miles east of Billings at 12:30 am (the 3d time that day). I left Ekalaka at 1 pm and should have been in Billings around 6:30-7 pm. Cars/semis passed by for about 45 mins. Then a car with 2 men slowed and looked like they were going to pull in front of me. I waved them off while holding an old fashioned tire iron in front of me. I don't think it looks like a weapon, but they took off fortunately. I plan on going again this Aug (in a different truck) and want to be prepared.
MTLaura
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
Malum Prohibitum wrote:
Malum Prohibitum wrote:
OCDO is tracking that gun carry is not banned in MT on college campuses as a matter of state criminal law.
MontanaCZ
Regular Member
imported post
Mike,
I would agree, from a criminal law standpoint, that you are correct. However, from a policy standpoint, both main campuses are prohibited places as per their policies. I do not know if they are posted on the buildings or not since I don't even live close to either of these places.
MSU used to be pretty open, being a country school and all. UofM has been liberal and closed for a long time. Now that VT happened, and MSU has become more liberal over the years, they are now prohibiting it as well. There was quite the outcry of shame about MSU changing the policy here. The only way that I see to change it would be a legal battle similar to what was done in Utah.
-CZ
Mike,
I would agree, from a criminal law standpoint, that you are correct. However, from a policy standpoint, both main campuses are prohibited places as per their policies. I do not know if they are posted on the buildings or not since I don't even live close to either of these places.
MSU used to be pretty open, being a country school and all. UofM has been liberal and closed for a long time. Now that VT happened, and MSU has become more liberal over the years, they are now prohibiting it as well. There was quite the outcry of shame about MSU changing the policy here. The only way that I see to change it would be a legal battle similar to what was done in Utah.
-CZ