eBratt
Regular Member
imported post
Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to be thorough.
Disclaimer: It is now almost four hours after this took place and some of the finer details are starting to blur slightly. I will do my best to note when I don't quite recall something completely.
Date: Oct. 4, 2007
Time: Approximately 10am
Dress: Jeans and a yellow t-shirt
Firearm: Springfield XD9, 4" Service Model carried strongside (right hip) in a Blackhawk CQC Serpa
Initial Contact:My wife and I were out geocaching today (Oct 10). At approximately 10 am we were leaving a small park off of 4th Ave in our minivan when I noticed a marked Poulsbo PD SUV approaching us in oncoming traffic. Upon passing the SUV, I noticed the officer talking into his microphone and subsequently activating his emergency lights. As there was no one in front of him, I felt fairly certain he was interested in me. As I noticed him turning around in the middle of the street, all doubt left.
I proceeded to pull over to the side of the road and waited for the officer to finish turning around and catch up to me. I figured that I had nothing to hide as I was not engaging in any illegal behavior and it would be courteous to the officer to not make this encounter any more difficult than it needed to be.
As expected, he pulled in behind me. I had already rolled my window down and greeted the officer verbally when he began to approach. He was all business and slowed his approach at the back of my vehicle, kept his hand near his gun (I didn't specifically notice if he ever placed it on his gun, but I did notice that it was at least near it). He asked me if I was armed and upon my response in the affirmative, asked me to exit the vehicle.
By this point, a second officer had arrived and was looking in the windows of the passenger side of the minivan. My wife politely waved while keeping her hands in plain view and my son, well, he's one so he just kind of stared. The first officer asked me if I had a concealed weapons license. I indicated I did and he proceeded to ask to view them. I indicated that they were in my left back pocket. I removed the cards from my wallet and handed them to him. At this piont the second officer had joined us. The first officer compared the name on my carry license to that on my DL. He asked me if I was visiting. I was confused by this as both licenses indicate a Poulsbo address and I stated such. He clarified to mean that he was referring to my activity as the park. I did not feel it was his business what specifically I was doing so I simply agreed that I was visiting the park. He returned the carry license and then the second officer engaged me in conversation while the first officer appeared to call in my DL to check validity and probably for wants/warrants as well.
Dialogue: The second officer, whose badge read as "Detective", explained to me that if you do not have a carry permit, you can carry a firearm openly. He then explained that if you do have a carry permit, you have to carry concealed. I politely explained that I was somewhat familiar with firearms laws and asked him if he could show me that law, as I was not aware of it (the polite way of my saying that I think he is wrong). He looked slightly surprised that I was not simply immediately compliant. He said that he didn't have a copy of the laws with him. I replied that having read through most of the state's firearms laws, that he is absolutely correct that without a carry license, one must ensure that the weapon is visible but that with a carry license, there was no legal requirement to keep the firearm concealed. I don't recall him arguing this point.
The first officer had rejoined us by this point, returned my DL, and remained relatively quiet for the remainder of my discussion with the detective.
The detective then explained that they had gotten a call from someone who saw me with a gun and indicated that when people see someone with a gun and don't see a badge, they get nervous and call the police. I stated that I understood that without indicating that I agreed that people should do so.
He then pointed out that by my carrying openly and panicing people, it could be considered a nuisance call (I can't quite recall exactly the terminology he used...I thought it was nuisance. It was not disturbing the peace.) and that that would be violation of the law. It doesn't sound it here, but the way he phrased it lead me right to thinking that he was referring to his vague recollection of our dear old friend RCW 9.41.270. So, I simply explained that I thought he was referring to that statute and indicated the necessary points that must be satisfied for a violation of it to have occurred. I asked what I was doing that warranted alarm. The first officer pointed out that someone was alarmed by my behavior. I explained more in depth that in order for me to be guilty of breaking that law, the manner, time, place, and circumstances would all must point to cause to be alarmed. I asked what about the circumstances and my manner of carry warranted alarm. At this point, the detective asked if I was a lawyer, to which I responded no, while trying to stifle a grin as I took that as him acknowledging that I knew the law he was talking about.
Here's where the questioning got interested. He asked if I was part of a free state project or another group (I can't remember which one he asked about) that is libertarian principles based. I indicated that I was not. He then asked how many other contacts I have had with police like this. I indicated that I have been openly carrying my firearm for several months and that this was the first time an officer had made contact with me regarding it. I explained that I also knew of several other people in Kitsap County who open carry on a regular basis who have never been stopped. At this point, he asked me if we have meetings. Red flags started going up all over the place in my mind when he asked this and I thought back to the 4th of July thread on this forum where someone suggested we march in the parade and that point was countered with RCW 38.40.120 where it makes illegal an "organizede body" organizing in public with firearms. Of course I didn't remember all of those details, but the gist of it jumped to mind.
Having never attended an OC picnic or restaurant gathering, I indicated that I had never met any of them in person. He asked how I knew them and indicated that there is a forum that we frequent, the purpose of which is to help one another stay abreast of open carry laws and issues in Washington. He then asserted in a clarifying manner that we do meet. I indicated that it was simply a website and that we no more have met than people who happen to frequent the same website to discuss nice parks to visit. In retrospect, I think he thought public gathering when I said forum and not internet forum.
At this point the questioning quickly died off and the first officer returned to his vehicle. The second officer, the detective, politely excused himself and made to leave. I thanked him for his time and started to turn to get in my car when I remembered to ask their names. The detective stated his name and turned so I could see the name tag on his uniform and told me the last name of the officer who had already returned to his vehicle.
I again thanked him, returned to my vehicle, and we parted ways.
Again, I am making the disclaimer that this is somewhat fuzzy now and I may have inadvertantly transposed topics in the timeline or not gotten the exact details of how things were phrased correctly. I am in the market for a voice recorder but haven't purchased one yet.
Debreif-the cons: The biggest one to me was the officer citing the law incorrectly trying to tell me that if I have a carry license, my gun must be concealed. The other big con is that I didn't have any training bulletins with me to share. I'll admit that after several months of OCing and not having a single contact, I got lazy in carrying the bulletins and didn't have one when I really could have used it.
Debrief-the pros: The officers were very polite and professional. They did treat me with proper respect. And this didn't occur to me until I got home, but at no time was I disarmed! I have to give them full credit on that.
Debrief-follow up: I will be sending letters to their chief explaining how polite and courteous the officers were while still being efficient in executing their duties. I will make no mention either way regarding the mistakes on the law as I am not 100% certain of which officer said what things about the law. I am almost sure it was the detective, but not sure enough to include it in the letter. I will also express high praise for the respect with which I was treated both in being spoken to and in not being treated like a criminal and being disarmed. I am also going to send a note to each of the officers thanking them for the courtesy and respect, explaining that I hope that I was able to explain myself well but that in case I didn't that I have included a copy of a training bulletin or two so that they can undestand what I was trying to explain.
So, comments and feedback from anyone? I am especially interested in comments about RCW 38.40.120 and the organizing in public of armed organizations. I am going to start a seperate thread that will specifically discuss that RCW, so try to keep this thread more general about the stop.
Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to be thorough.
Disclaimer: It is now almost four hours after this took place and some of the finer details are starting to blur slightly. I will do my best to note when I don't quite recall something completely.
Date: Oct. 4, 2007
Time: Approximately 10am
Dress: Jeans and a yellow t-shirt
Firearm: Springfield XD9, 4" Service Model carried strongside (right hip) in a Blackhawk CQC Serpa
Initial Contact:My wife and I were out geocaching today (Oct 10). At approximately 10 am we were leaving a small park off of 4th Ave in our minivan when I noticed a marked Poulsbo PD SUV approaching us in oncoming traffic. Upon passing the SUV, I noticed the officer talking into his microphone and subsequently activating his emergency lights. As there was no one in front of him, I felt fairly certain he was interested in me. As I noticed him turning around in the middle of the street, all doubt left.
I proceeded to pull over to the side of the road and waited for the officer to finish turning around and catch up to me. I figured that I had nothing to hide as I was not engaging in any illegal behavior and it would be courteous to the officer to not make this encounter any more difficult than it needed to be.
As expected, he pulled in behind me. I had already rolled my window down and greeted the officer verbally when he began to approach. He was all business and slowed his approach at the back of my vehicle, kept his hand near his gun (I didn't specifically notice if he ever placed it on his gun, but I did notice that it was at least near it). He asked me if I was armed and upon my response in the affirmative, asked me to exit the vehicle.
By this point, a second officer had arrived and was looking in the windows of the passenger side of the minivan. My wife politely waved while keeping her hands in plain view and my son, well, he's one so he just kind of stared. The first officer asked me if I had a concealed weapons license. I indicated I did and he proceeded to ask to view them. I indicated that they were in my left back pocket. I removed the cards from my wallet and handed them to him. At this piont the second officer had joined us. The first officer compared the name on my carry license to that on my DL. He asked me if I was visiting. I was confused by this as both licenses indicate a Poulsbo address and I stated such. He clarified to mean that he was referring to my activity as the park. I did not feel it was his business what specifically I was doing so I simply agreed that I was visiting the park. He returned the carry license and then the second officer engaged me in conversation while the first officer appeared to call in my DL to check validity and probably for wants/warrants as well.
Dialogue: The second officer, whose badge read as "Detective", explained to me that if you do not have a carry permit, you can carry a firearm openly. He then explained that if you do have a carry permit, you have to carry concealed. I politely explained that I was somewhat familiar with firearms laws and asked him if he could show me that law, as I was not aware of it (the polite way of my saying that I think he is wrong). He looked slightly surprised that I was not simply immediately compliant. He said that he didn't have a copy of the laws with him. I replied that having read through most of the state's firearms laws, that he is absolutely correct that without a carry license, one must ensure that the weapon is visible but that with a carry license, there was no legal requirement to keep the firearm concealed. I don't recall him arguing this point.
The first officer had rejoined us by this point, returned my DL, and remained relatively quiet for the remainder of my discussion with the detective.
The detective then explained that they had gotten a call from someone who saw me with a gun and indicated that when people see someone with a gun and don't see a badge, they get nervous and call the police. I stated that I understood that without indicating that I agreed that people should do so.
He then pointed out that by my carrying openly and panicing people, it could be considered a nuisance call (I can't quite recall exactly the terminology he used...I thought it was nuisance. It was not disturbing the peace.) and that that would be violation of the law. It doesn't sound it here, but the way he phrased it lead me right to thinking that he was referring to his vague recollection of our dear old friend RCW 9.41.270. So, I simply explained that I thought he was referring to that statute and indicated the necessary points that must be satisfied for a violation of it to have occurred. I asked what I was doing that warranted alarm. The first officer pointed out that someone was alarmed by my behavior. I explained more in depth that in order for me to be guilty of breaking that law, the manner, time, place, and circumstances would all must point to cause to be alarmed. I asked what about the circumstances and my manner of carry warranted alarm. At this point, the detective asked if I was a lawyer, to which I responded no, while trying to stifle a grin as I took that as him acknowledging that I knew the law he was talking about.
Here's where the questioning got interested. He asked if I was part of a free state project or another group (I can't remember which one he asked about) that is libertarian principles based. I indicated that I was not. He then asked how many other contacts I have had with police like this. I indicated that I have been openly carrying my firearm for several months and that this was the first time an officer had made contact with me regarding it. I explained that I also knew of several other people in Kitsap County who open carry on a regular basis who have never been stopped. At this point, he asked me if we have meetings. Red flags started going up all over the place in my mind when he asked this and I thought back to the 4th of July thread on this forum where someone suggested we march in the parade and that point was countered with RCW 38.40.120 where it makes illegal an "organizede body" organizing in public with firearms. Of course I didn't remember all of those details, but the gist of it jumped to mind.
Having never attended an OC picnic or restaurant gathering, I indicated that I had never met any of them in person. He asked how I knew them and indicated that there is a forum that we frequent, the purpose of which is to help one another stay abreast of open carry laws and issues in Washington. He then asserted in a clarifying manner that we do meet. I indicated that it was simply a website and that we no more have met than people who happen to frequent the same website to discuss nice parks to visit. In retrospect, I think he thought public gathering when I said forum and not internet forum.
At this point the questioning quickly died off and the first officer returned to his vehicle. The second officer, the detective, politely excused himself and made to leave. I thanked him for his time and started to turn to get in my car when I remembered to ask their names. The detective stated his name and turned so I could see the name tag on his uniform and told me the last name of the officer who had already returned to his vehicle.
I again thanked him, returned to my vehicle, and we parted ways.
Again, I am making the disclaimer that this is somewhat fuzzy now and I may have inadvertantly transposed topics in the timeline or not gotten the exact details of how things were phrased correctly. I am in the market for a voice recorder but haven't purchased one yet.
Debreif-the cons: The biggest one to me was the officer citing the law incorrectly trying to tell me that if I have a carry license, my gun must be concealed. The other big con is that I didn't have any training bulletins with me to share. I'll admit that after several months of OCing and not having a single contact, I got lazy in carrying the bulletins and didn't have one when I really could have used it.
Debrief-the pros: The officers were very polite and professional. They did treat me with proper respect. And this didn't occur to me until I got home, but at no time was I disarmed! I have to give them full credit on that.
Debrief-follow up: I will be sending letters to their chief explaining how polite and courteous the officers were while still being efficient in executing their duties. I will make no mention either way regarding the mistakes on the law as I am not 100% certain of which officer said what things about the law. I am almost sure it was the detective, but not sure enough to include it in the letter. I will also express high praise for the respect with which I was treated both in being spoken to and in not being treated like a criminal and being disarmed. I am also going to send a note to each of the officers thanking them for the courtesy and respect, explaining that I hope that I was able to explain myself well but that in case I didn't that I have included a copy of a training bulletin or two so that they can undestand what I was trying to explain.
So, comments and feedback from anyone? I am especially interested in comments about RCW 38.40.120 and the organizing in public of armed organizations. I am going to start a seperate thread that will specifically discuss that RCW, so try to keep this thread more general about the stop.