Stopped today by Poulsbo PD (Kitsap County)

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eBratt wrote:

He indicated that the time that they kept me there might have exceeded a reasonable ammount of time.

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Speaking to the reasonable length of time issue, it’s important to remember that if you’re engaging them in a conversation (or debate) while they are detaining you, they won’t see even two hours as ‘unreasonable’. If you simply refuse to speak to them, they will have to release you much sooner.

Now, I’m not advocating either way of doing it; I have a bit of experience in this. I think if it were to happen to me again, I would cease discussing it the moment they admitted it was legal.

Officer: “I know open carry is legal but why do you…”

Me: “Am I free to leave?”

If you’re discussing or debating the issue, they will take as long as they feel they need to convince you that you’re wrongand they’re right; at least until one of two things happens, they realize they’re at the point of impasse, or a better/more important call comes in on the radio.

Just food for thought.

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And in the future, the moment they move questioning away from the legality of OC, I will end the encounter as quickly as they permit. The more I think about it, the more I think I humored their questioning too long.

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RCW 38.40.120 Authorized military organizations.
No organized body other than the recognized militia organizations of this state, armed forces of the United States, students of educational institutions where military science is a prescribed part of the course of instruction or bona fide veterans organizations shall associate themselves together as a military company or organize or parade in public with firearms: PROVIDED, That nothing herein shall be construed to prevent authorized parades by the organized militia of another state or armed forces of foreign countries. Any person participating in any such unauthorized organization shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

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IANAL but MHO is that to get together for a dinner/picinic etc does not meet any of the definitions for organize or parade. Further, lack of a legal definition of thewords organize or paradewould cause a normal person to use the dictionary definitions, soas long as you are not purporting yourselves as a military company, or every member of the org is not involved with setting up/planning the event (never have known everyone in an org to be involved with much less attending an event) it would be hard pressed to prove you were guilty of breaking this RCW. That typed, I would still shut the hell up when those questions were posed to me and ask if I was being detained.

I think under the circumstances, you did very well.

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eBratt wrote:

He said that depending on the information the caller provided, for example, if the caller had indicated that I was brandishing the gun, the police may have been acting under that premise (faulty as it was).

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Correct, everything hinges on the call. But if brandishing or worsehad been reported I suspect the questioning would have taken a different tact in order to get a self incriminating statement to assist in getting a warrant,provided the caller didn't want to do a private persons arrest. (again I don't know Wash. law.)

In my case, he said that he felt I would be hard pressed to find a lawyer that would take the police to task on the incident as the threshold for Terry was so closely met.

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My gut feeling is that they didn't meet the "Terry" threshold but for a law suit your damages are little. You could win a moral victory but at the expense of $$$$$to see it through if they fight it. If you're daddy warbucks go for it.

More with less expense can be accomplished with a formal complaint. That takes internal resources to investigate and puts that officer under scrutiny. With this in his package it will discourage him from doing it again for fear of a similar complaint. This applies to both the stopping officer and questioning detective. And it can still discourage this behavior in the future even if no discipline is handed out. Nobody likes to be questioned by IA.

You letters are a good way to communicate your concerns to the brass but do add a complaint for good measure as it sends the message that you are serious about stopping this abuse of authority. The next officer may do a felony stop and get someone hurt over nothing. Please send a strong but polite message after getting the recorded call for service tape, dispatch info, along with any pre and post stop computer messaging and radio traffic to be sure their illegality.

Keep in mind that without a valid reason to stop they can't even search your name for warrants. Now, having stopped you, your name will most likely forever be in there internal computer system as associated with a "man with a gun call". If the officer completed the call by adding "uncooperative subject with firearm" in the comments, since you didn't take his advise, that will influence all future contact you might have withthat department. Just food for thought.









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sccrref wrote:

RCW 38.40.120 Authorized military organizations.
No organized body other than the recognized militia organizations of this state, armed forces of the United States, students of educational institutions where military science is a prescribed part of the course of instruction or bona fide veterans organizations shall associate themselves together as a military company or organize or parade in public with firearms: PROVIDED, That nothing herein shall be construed to prevent authorized parades by the organized militia of another state or armed forces of foreign countries. Any person participating in any such unauthorized organization shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

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And why aren't they arresting all military re-enactors!

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Trigger Dr wrote:

I had a conversation with one of the Kitsap Deputy Sheriff today concerning open carry and their "training", this deputy, whom I have known and worked with for over 20 years, said they had no formal training regarding OC. He stated that there were some cities that had ordinances prohibiting OC. I explained the pre emption to him and he said he would see what the county had done or would be doing.

Earlier I spoke with the manager of the Sportsmans Warehouse, (My employer) and his response was for the most part positive. He said if it was noticed, they would "probably" politely ask the preson to unload the firearm and if they declined, they would be allowed to continue their business un mollested.

This is not from the corporate HQ, and only from the Silverdale store. the stores in Lacy and Federal way were not asked.

Dr of Triggernometry

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And you work at the gun counter at the Silverdale store? Geez, Everytime I've gone in there open carrying I figured I was going to get dragged out back and hanged. :? The looks and stuff said to me have made me not go back there since.

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G27,

We have recently had a change of management at the store and I think you will find a better atmosphere from now on. Give it a try.

Now not to defend anyone but instead, Just to put things a bit in perspective, LEO's are trained to be suspicious, and they deal with the low life element of society for the most part. As a result, each and every encounter with a person puts them in a position of distrust until they are satisfied otherwise. Even then they are still on guard for the one person who may still be the bad guy.

We, on the other hand, are dealing with persons of generally a higher degree of education, better social skills, and higher standards of self conduct. social interactions are of a congenial demeanor, and when met with suspicion, we also become distrustful and suspicious.

As long as we remain unconfrontational and cooperate for a REASONABLE time, the situation can become better for all concerned.

I would suggest the following...

Avoid "bad mouthing" theLEOs on this forum, but stick to the issue in as positive manner as possible. Point out the mistakes made by LEOs and the actions planned for correcting these errors. Referring to them as Gestapo, Jack booted thugs, etc. puts us in a much poorer position.

Invite the LEO's to log onto the forum and take a look at the way things are handled with different scenarios. You will be surprised at the results ths can generate.

I know,from a 27 year carrer as a LEO, that bad officers do not last long when they are identified within their respective departments.

Flame me if you will, but do it by PM to avoid giving the members here a bad reputation if and when it is read by a LEO who may be coming over to the correct interpretation of the RCW.

Dr of Triggernometry

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I have openly carrieda couple of times in the Federal Way Sportsmans Warehouse (and I might be doing it again tomorrow afternoon since I'm getting low on primers and powder and I'll be in that area) and no one has ever said anything. In fact the entire staff ignores me just as much as they always have.

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cato wrote:

Keep in mind that without a valid reason to stop they can't even search your name for warrants. Now, having stopped you, your name will most likely forever be in there internal computer system as associated with a "man with a gun call". If the officer completed the call by adding "uncooperative subject with firearm" in the comments, since you didn't take his advise, that will influence all future contact you might have withthat department. Just food for thought.

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This is very interesting.

I wonder if this is what the police officer who gave Mrs. Chin Chin a hard time was referring to. He told her something to the effect that he was going to put a mark on her drivers license or something.

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cato wrote:

SNIP Keep in mind that without a valid reason to stop they can't even search your name for warrants. Now, having stopped you, your name will most likely forever be in there internal computer system as associated with a "man with a gun call". If the officer completed the call by adding "uncooperative subject with firearm" in the comments, since you didn't take his advise, that will influence all future contact you might have withthat department. Just food for thought.

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Definitely reason to refuse (politely) any extra-lawful ID request or demand.

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Citizen wrote:

...he was going to put a mark on her drivers license or something.

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I couldn't do that out here without writting a ticket, don't know about VA DL's though. Our dispatchers will run name and location histories on the"in house" computer fileswhile we're enrout to a call. That way if were dispatched to a simple loud music call or other "routine" callwe'll know if we'vebeen there before and for what reasons; domestic violence, fights, gun call, drugs etc... That same "in house" search can be done with names and will then give us a little more insight into who were dealing with and if the department has had other encounters with that individual.

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sccrref wrote:

RCW 38.40.120 Authorized military organizations.
No organized body other than the recognized militia organizations of this state, armed forces of the United States, students of educational institutions where military science is a prescribed part of the course of instruction or bona fide veterans organizations shall associate themselves together as a military company or organize or parade in public with firearms: PROVIDED, That nothing herein shall be construed to prevent authorized parades by the organized militia of another state or armed forces of foreign countries. Any person participating in any such unauthorized organization shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

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IANAL but MHO is that to get together for a dinner/picinic etc does not meet any of the definitions for organize or parade. Further, lack of a legal definition of thewords organize or paradewould cause a normal person to use the dictionary definitions, soas long as you are not purporting yourselves as a military company, or every member of the org is not involved with setting up/planning the event (never have known everyone in an org to be involved with much less attending an event) it would be hard pressed to prove you were guilty of breaking this RCW. That typed, I would still shut the hell up when those questions were posed to me and ask if I was being detained.

I think under the circumstances, you did very well.

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That law kindaflys in the face of the Bill of Rights doesn't it? The Militia is the body politic and that pretty much includes all of us. You got to remember that just because the morons in the legisature wrote a law, don't mean it is legal, right or moral.

"Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people"-George Mason "Father of the Bill of Rights" Delegate to the Constitutional Convention.

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slight skewed off topic, but couldn't that law destroy all the fun the military re-enactors have? and couldn't it be bent a little to screw with a hunting party as they "parade around" some back woods logging road?

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eBratt wrote:

Debrief-follow up: I will be sending letters to their chief explaining how polite and courteous the officers were while still being efficient in executing their duties. I will make no mention either way regarding the mistakes on the law as I am not 100% certain of which officer said what things about the law. I am almost sure it was the detective, but not sure enough to include it in the letter. I will also express high praise for the respect with which I was treated both in being spoken to and in not being treated like a criminal and being disarmed. I am also going to send a note to each of the officers thanking them for the courtesy and respect, explaining that I hope that I was able to explain myself well but that in case I didn't that I have included a copy of a training bulletin or two so that they can undestand what I was trying to explain.

So, comments and feedback from anyone?

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eBratt, I like your suggestions for followup. I wouldn't go too far overboard on the praise letters to the chief, but I really like the idea about the note to the officers with the bulletins enclosed.

I don't understand why some here are so intent on turning everything into a confrontation. Fine, so these cops didn't know this particular law accurately; they still handled the situation somewhat reasonably. (Yes, there was room for improvement.)

(not addressed to eBratt): Don't forget that they are expected to know a LOT of laws. We all make ourselves familiar with OC-related laws, but how many of us can also quote the laws for our state about how far motorcycle handlebars can be above the seat, and the bumper height for a lifted truck, and the degree of tint allowed on car windows, and the maximum legal height of a semi trailer, and what constitutes loitering, and what constitutes vandalism? To the cop, OC is just one more in a long line of laws he's expected to know.

You or I might not care if the cop knows how many inches your handlebars are allowed to be above your seat, but you can bet the guys on a custom chopper forum think that is just as important as we think open carry is.

It would be nice if every cop knew every law, but that's just not realistic. If sending him a bulletin or pamphlet as a followup is just as effective as a lawsuit or formal complaint, why on earth would you start with one of latter?

Some of you guys really come off as rather belligerent, and eBratt's suggestions seem like a breath of fresh air to me.

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BluesBear wrote:

I have openly carrieda couple of times in the Federal Way Sportsmans Warehouse (and I might be doing it again tomorrow afternoon since I'm getting low on primers and powder and I'll be in that area) and no one has ever said anything. In fact the entire staff ignores me just as much as they always have.

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Did it and wrote about it HERE.

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Any updates, Ebratt?

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None yet. I am dropping off letters to the officers and the training officer tomorrow. We'll see from there.

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Poulsbo just got a new Chief. I don't think he has started working yet though.

LOL, watch out, he's from California :uhoh: Hopefully he hasn't been tainted beyond reason.

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spike89 wrote:

Poulsbo just got a new Chief. I don't think he has started working yet though.

LOL, watch out, he's from California :uhoh: Hopefully he hasn't been tainted beyond reason.

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Or educated beyond his intelligence.

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Well isn't that just great...

I dropped off my letter and training bulletins for the training office two weeks ago this coming Thursday with an indication that if I hadn't heard anything from him in that time, I'd give him a call to see how things are moving with it.

Haven't heard anything...looks like I'll be making a phone call on Thursday.

On a side note, I have OCed into the PD both to drop off letters and to pick up a copy of the police report. No one has batted an eye.