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Thread: BMWAG ARRESTED!!!

  1. #1
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    So, while I was getting on the HRT bus to Suffolk, the bus driver pulled back into the parking lot, step out for a minute, asked the previous bus driver to step out, and then I noticed the HPD.

    They asked me to step of the bus so they could ask me some questions.They started by disarming me (for officer safety). Of course, I told them I didn't allow the seizure of my firearm, butwas told "it's forofficer safety". First question always is, "why do you have a gun?".

    I replied "It is allowed to be open carried".

    Another officer asked me my name, and I refused to answer his question. Then came the long period of time of jabbering about why I need to ID myself, and the reasons why I don't have to.

    One officer said that I had to be 21 or older to carry a firearm. Which I interrupted him and told him 18, however 21 to buy from a FFL. That pissed him off and he began spouting that I know the law a little bit and he was telling me the correct law.

    Even a Lt. came out to play. He asked me a general question, if I was over 21, why I replied yes.

    However more time passed and the Lt. was on the phone with a city attorney. After speaking to them, he came back and one of the officers stated that there was precedent and that if I didn't provide ID, they would arrest me.

    "Do what you have to do" - BMWAG

    So they charged me with Obstruction of justice (what justice were they looking for?) and released me on summons.

    That was yesterday..........





    Today I went to see the Chief of Police, however he wasn't in. I spoke to a Sgt who said he would look into the problem. Another Sgt who is in Internal Affairs said she would look into it.

    But before that, they were telling me that there was a case law stating that ONLY LEO could carry with 1 in the chamber, but of course he didn't know the exact code, but he said he would get back to me.

    They also said that "man with a gun" is enough "reasonable suspicion" to preform a Terry stop. I advised them other wise. We debated for a few mins, and we agreed to disagree, however I know my ****, so it's all good.



    And before you say it, I know that instead of being detained (illegally) for an hour, I could have provided my ID and taken the 5 mins to run my name, but WHY?

    I shouldn't be forced to hand over my papers just because they want to knowwho I am, especially when I'm not doing anything illegal. I am not a slave.

    I paraphrased the story.

    Please post OPINIONS and/or thoughts on the situation.

    Thanks in advance.

    ------------------------------------------

    Oh yeah, just wanted to add that while I was shopping for a new digital recorder in MacArthur Mall, I saw 2 people.

    Person 1 was a black male with double mag pouch. I asked him about it and got the 411 that he carrys a Taurus PT92. However he came off as a ass, so I didn't speak with him much. I told him about VCDL and OCDO.

    Person 2 (who nameis also Dan) - was OCING a .380 High Point. Good response from him though. He knew about OCDO, and about the laws of OC. I advised him of MacArthur being "gun free" and he replied with a happy tone of "I didn't see any signs". Luckily he was just paying a cell phone bill and leaving, so not too many soccer moms would see him.



  2. #2
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Hmmm. Why do I know that all of us (VCDL) are going to take a trip tosee the Hampton City Council real soon?:celebrate
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  3. #3
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I haven't taken HRT in years, but I think I might tomorrow. Maybe a VCDL groupbus ride to the Hampton City Council would be in order?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    You left out a lot of details. Did they take you somewhere? Did they give you the gun back?



  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Dan and I discussed this at some length last night. First, the officers told Dan they knew OC was legal (some progress here!) but then went on for an HOUR questioning him about this and that, asking for his social security number, etc., etc. They had his gun for "officer safety", but put it on the grass median strip while questioning him. (!) Ultimately they charged him with obstruction of justice, I guess because he chose not to cooperate with their line of questioning. IANAL, but since he was never charged with any crime otherwise, and they knew OC was legal, I can't see how he can be charged with "obstruction of justice". They seem to think this term is synonomous with not cooperating with their fishing expidition. His pistol was returned to him, and he was not taken downtown. (Actually, this happened downtown, in front of the Court House!).

    18.2-460

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...tx/2802972.txt



  6. #6
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    WOW!!

    Another brush with the law..... I am thinking you could have avoided the charge had you cooperated. But that was your decision to refuse.

    I will be interested to see how things go in court.

    When is your court date?

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    I doubt that the prosecutor will proceed.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I'd say this was a false arrest and start preparing a lawsuit. Here is the first thing I found concerning obstruction of justice and refusal to ID oneself, a Virginia AG opinion saying that the police may detain to determine identity but not arrest for obstruction.
    http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf

    "Virginia courts have set a high threshold for a conviction under § 18.2-460(A). Given this precedent, I am compelled to conclude that a law-enforcement officer, even when armed with reasonable suspicion that criminal activity may be occurring, may not arrest a suspect for obstruction of justice on the basis that the suspect refuses to identify himself."

    "Conclusion
    Accordingly, it is my opinion, under the specific facts you have presented, that a law-enforcement officer conducting a lawful investigative stop may not arrest a suspect for obstruction of justice under § 18.2-460(A), when the suspect refuses to identify himself to the officer. Depending on the circumstances, however, there may be justification to detain a suspect for the purpose of determining his identity."


  9. #9
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I am thinking you could have avoided the charge had you cooperated. But that was your decision to refuse.


    And it could have been avoided if the police did not harrass him or overstep their authority, or summons him for a bogus charge, or ....

    If nothing else we can always count on you to support the wrong doers.


  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Question Danbus, not that it matters in light of the AG opinion but did you ever verbally ID yourself? I just ask wondering what the summons said if you didn't.

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    These jerkclowns had to have known. They can't have missed what happened in Norfolk. Also, I seem to recall that one of the FOIA documents released in the Tony's incident included a Manassas Lt. or Capt. e-mailing his contacts in police departments around the state, including one in Hampton.

    Harassment, plain and simple.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    SNIP ...FOIA documents released in the Tony's incident included a Manassas Lt. or Capt. e-mailing his contacts in police departments around the state, including one in Hampton.
    Yep. An "rdavis at hampton dot gov." See page 21 of the .pdf of the FOIAresponse at http://tinyurl.com/2ke8un.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    longwatch wrote:
    Question Danbus, not that it matters in light of the AG opinion but did you ever verbally ID yourself? I just ask wondering what the summons said if you didn't.
    That's a good question. I think LEO229 said would arrest ya.

    Longwatch, your cite is what I was thinking of. Wish we had this stuff on video, Danbus would make a great training film...

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    longwatch wrote:
    Question Danbus, not that it matters in light of the AG opinion but did you ever verbally ID yourself? I just ask wondering what the summons said if you didn't.
    A quick quote and link to the AG opinion would help us OC'ers.

    Heh, heh, heh. And the police who monitor the forum.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  15. #15
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    After being arrested, they searched me and found my ID.

    But to answer your question, no I did not.
    I'd say this was a false arrest and start preparing a lawsuit. Here is the first thing I found concerning obstruction of justice and refusal to ID oneself, a Virginia AG opinion saying that the police may detain to determine identity but not arrest for obstruction.
    http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf

    "Virginia courts have set a high threshold for a conviction under § 18.2-460(A). Given this precedent, I am compelled to conclude that a law-enforcement officer, even when armed with reasonable suspicion that criminal activity may be occurring, may not arrest a suspect for obstruction of justice on the basis that the suspect refuses to identify himself."

    "Conclusion
    Accordingly, it is my opinion, under the specific facts you have presented, that a law-enforcement officer conducting a lawful investigative stop may not arrest a suspect for obstruction of justice under § 18.2-460(A), when the suspect refuses to identify himself to the officer. Depending on the circumstances, however, there may be justification to detain a suspect for the purpose of determining his identity."





    The thing is, there wasn't even justification for the stop. There wasn't reasonable suspicion. They claimed that I could be underage, have warrants, or be a felon as their articulable facts. Also, they stated that they could say that me being armed on a public bus is cause for concern of public safety.

    I repeated to the officers that articulate facts = reasonable suspicion = terry stop (ie detainment, investigatory stop).

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Yeah or at least get the audio. Anyone want to pitch in on at least a voice recorder for Danbus, I think hes earned it, and really needs it.



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    longwatch wrote:
    Yeah or at least get the audio. Anyone want to pitch in on at least a voice recorder for Danbus, I think hes earned it, and really needs it.

    Just bought one today. Yay me! It has the niffty feature of transferring recordings to computer.

    Heh heh, alright!

  18. #18
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    longwatch wrote:
    Yeah or at least get the audio. Anyone want to pitch in on at least a voice recorder for Danbus, I think hes earned it, and really needs it.

    Considering he has had more time at the business end of the lawmen than most of us combined, including being a finger's twitch from the graveyard, I'd say so as well!

  19. #19
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    longwatch wrote:
    Yeah or at least get the audio. Anyone want to pitch in on at least a voice recorder for Danbus, I think hes earned it, and really needs it.
    I'm flat broke but pledge $10


    These a-holes need charged and convicted. Enough is enough already.




  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    danbus wrote:
    After being arrested, they searched me and found my ID.

    But to answer your question, no I did not.
    The thing is, there wasn't even justification for the stop. There wasn't reasonable suspicion. They claimed that I could be underage, have warrants, or be a felon as their articulable facts. Also, they stated that they could say that me being armed on a public bus is cause for concern of public safety.

    I repeated to the officers that articulate facts = reasonable suspicion = terry stop (ie detainment, investigatory stop).
    Ugh the plot sickens.

    I absolutely agree with you on the second part.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    danbus wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Yeah or at least get the audio. Anyone want to pitch in on at least a voice recorder for Danbus, I think hes earned it, and really needs it.

    Just bought one today. Yay me! It has the niffty feature of transferring recordings to computer.

    Heh heh, alright!
    Excellent, just remember to carry it, my 2nd biggest regret OCing was not carrying mine on the night of Tonys.

    ETA

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  23. #23
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    Pa. Patriot wrote: Yeah, thats the one. Mines blue.

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    longwatch wrote:
    SNIP Excellent, just remember to carry it....
    Mine goes with me just likeit wasspare ammunition. Its an integral part of my carry "kit."

    It doesn't ever get left behind. There is never any question about whether to carry it today.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Like ammo? I'd say more like a shield protecting us like a witness in your pocket. Definitely in my EDC now because of the last 10 months.

    ETA: just need a place to keep my Batarang
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