Open carry unwise

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uncoolperson wrote:

Marty Hayes wrote:

Deanf:

I stand corrected. I should have said the last 3 cops killed were killed with thier own gun, after a struggle. Of couse, that would still not have been correct, as Deputy Cox was not shot with his own gun, so, what I REALLY should have said, is that three of the last four cops killed in WA state were killed with their own guns, after a sgtruggle, There, WHEW!

The point I was trying to make, (albiet not very well) was that cops face the same exact criminals that anyone else might face at any given time. These criminals do not seem too reticient in attempting to disarm the cops, so there is no reason to believe these same criminals would not attempt the same with someone carrying unconcealed. Open carrying in an urban environment is a very new phenomenon. It is much too soon to draw any conclusions as to whether or not open carry reduces crime, or exposes the individual to a greater risk.

What I do know, is that concealed carry does not expose the individual to that risk.

Marty

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again though the cops are a threat to the crimal (who doesn't want to go to jail, also one of the greatest reason i will respect any cop good/bad inbetween... including the one that cuffed me and beat the tar out of me for being a mouthy drunk 17 y/o), and this i'm guessing is a cause in the struggle over the firearm. where as a guy on the street isn't a threat, and isn't a great target.

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Another angle to consider is when did the criminal make the effort to take the gun? Did he just run up to the cop and take it, or (and this is more likely) was the attempt made while the cop was struggling to subdue the guy?

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Marty Hayes wrote:

Deanf:

I stand corrected. I should have said the last 3 cops killed were killed with thier own gun, after a struggle. Of couse, that would still not have been correct, as Deputy Cox was not shot with his own gun, so, what I REALLY should have said, is that three of the last four cops killed in WA state were killed with their own guns, after a sgtruggle, There, WHEW!

The point I was trying to make, (albiet not very well) was that cops face the same exact criminals that anyone else might face at any given time. These criminals do not seem too reticient in attempting to disarm the cops, so there is no reason to believe these same criminals would not attempt the same with someone carrying unconcealed. Open carrying in an urban environment is a very new phenomenon. It is much too soon to draw any conclusions as to whether or not open carry reduces crime, or exposes the individual to a greater risk.

What I do know, is that concealed carry does not expose the individual to that risk.

Marty

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But you assume open carry exposes one to a higher risk than concealed carry does without any proof.You said so yourself. Open carry seems to work in Arizona just fine. Besides concealed carry has risk also, such as snagging clothes as you draw from under them and the delay indrawing because of the clothes over your weapon. Most bad guys are not just bad, but lazy too and will leave a known armed citizen along and pursue an easier target.

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First of all let me say Welcome ABoard™ to Marty Hayes. It's nice to have someone of his qualifications here.

However it is a shame that I have to disagree so strongly with his very first post. Marty you are a renowned trainer, but you simply cannot compare the "daily lifestyle" of a uniformed police officer with those of a civilianopenly carrying a firearm. It's not even apples and oranges. It's more like apples andcornbread.

Clint Smith described it better that I can. so I'll just use his words;

So you know, the issue is not whether or not you have a gun. Every police officer I know of who was killed in the line of duty had a gun with them.

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One of the things first FTO taught me on my very first day was that, "EVERY damntime you make contact with the public there will be a weapon present... YOURS !" And the "code" said it was an unforgivable sin to lose control of your weapon.

He also said our job was to make as few arrests as possible. Now this took me by complete surprise until he explained further. he said, 'Arrests are dangerous so we only arrest the ones we have to. Never arrest anyone by yourself unless you absolutely have to. No one everwants to get arrested,' he said. 'Some may fight it and some may accept it. Some may be okay with it andsome may be okay with it at first and then change their mind half way through. Every time you arrest someone there is the possibility for it to get ugly.'

No in my current life as a civilianI am no longer required to make contact with criminals. I am no long put in the position of having to make physical contact with people who don't want to be restrained. If you read the "Armed Citizen" columnin each month's American Rifleman or First Freedom you'll see how often criminals RUN away at the mere sight of a firearm. Often times even after they have been so bold as to break into someone's occupied house.

By nature I am a very outgoing individual. I smile, I laugh, I tip my hat and I say Hello to people who pass close by me, I look AT people. I am exactly the type of person criminals avoid. And if I just so happen to be carrying openly that day then I am damndefinately the type that criminals avoid. And if a person is so situationally unaware (clueless) so that some one can sneak up and grab their gun then perhaps they shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place.

Now we're not saying that carrying openly is a walk in the park (even though it's lawful anda good place to do it). There are extra responsibilities that go along with it. But then there are alreadyadded responsibilities for all of us every time wecarry. But I really don't believe there are any added dangers.

One more thing. I carry a half size "trucker's wallet". You know the kind with a chain that goes to your belt? I have carried them on and off for 40 years. I currently carry one because if I were to drop it I cannot physically bend over to pick it up without extreme discomfort. I cannot count the number of times in my life whensomeone (usually astranger) has toldme, "Oh... you know... a mugger... could just grab that chain... and yank it real hard... and he'd have your wallet in no time." Care to guess how many times anyone hasactually tried that?

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Well folks, we are just going to have to agree to disagree, as I am going to be absent for the next week. Carry on,

Marty

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BluesBear wrote:

First of all let me say Welcome ABoard™ to Marty Hayes. It's nice to have someone of his qualifications here.

However it is a shame that I have to disagree so strongly with his very first post. Marty you are a renowned trainer, but you simply cannot compare the "daily lifestyle" of a uniformed police officer with those of a civilianopenly carrying a firearm. It's not even apples and oranges. It's more like apples andcornbread.

Clint Smith described it better that I can. so I'll just use his words;

So you know, the issue is not whether or not you have a gun. Every police officer I know of who was killed in the line of duty had a gun with them.

Click to expand...

One of the things first FTO taught me on my very first day was that, "EVERY damntime you make contact with the public there will be a weapon present... YOURS !" And the "code" said it was an unforgivable sin to lose control of your weapon.

He also said our job was to make as few arrests as possible. Now this took me by complete surprise until he explained further. he said, 'Arrests are dangerous so we only arrest the ones we have to. Never arrest anyone by yourself unless you absolutely have to. No one everwants to get arrested,' he said. 'Some may fight it and some may accept it. Some may be okay with it andsome may be okay with it at first and then change their mind half way through. Every time you arrest someone there is the possibility for it to get ugly.'

No in my current life as a civilianI am no longer required to make contact with criminals. I am no long put in the position of having to make physical contact with people who don't want to be restrained. If you read the "Armed Citizen" columnin each month's American Rifleman or First Freedom you'll see how often criminals RUN away at the mere sight of a firearm. Often times even after they have been so bold as to break into someone's occupied house.

By nature I am a very outgoing individual. I smile, I laugh, I tip my hat and I say Hello to people who pass close by me, I look AT people. I am exactly the type of person criminals avoid. And if I just so happen to be carrying openly that day then I am damndefinately the type that criminals avoid. And if a person is so situationally unaware (clueless) so that some one can sneak up and grab their gun then perhaps they shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place.

Now we're not saying that carrying openly is a walk in the park (even though it's lawful anda good place to do it). There are extra responsibilities that go along with it. But then there are alreadyadded responsibilities for all of us every time wecarry. But I really don't believe there are any added dangers.

One more thing. I carry a half size "trucker's wallet". You know the kind with a chain that goes to your belt? I have carried them on and off for 40 years. I currently carry one because if I were to drop it I cannot physically bend over to pick it up without extreme discomfort. I cannot count the number of times in my life whensomeone (usually astranger) has toldme, "Oh... you know... a mugger... could just grab that chain... and yank it real hard... and he'd have your wallet in no time." Care to guess how many times anyone hasactually tried that?

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I agree with that very much. Also you have the upperhand on a mugger, you carry a whipping stick as far as they are concerned.

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Well, I just have to say that I carry openly in Tacoma, in an urban area, quite a bit. Carry into the local Safeway and Walmart all the time....so much that the people who work there know who I am now ......I have little anxiety about carrying in such an area, because I maintain situational awareness, not just when OCing, but any time. I would feel more uncomfortable going anywhere, especially an urban area, unarmed than going there OCing. And as it has already been stated, you are going to chase away 9/10 of the "thugs" that would give you trouble just by having that sidearm on you. I go the extra distance and even make eye contact with any person(s) I feel may have any stupid thoughts in their head about trying anything while I am around, which usually makes said person move along fairly quickly......between being an armed target, and a self-aware target, the risk level for any attacker is way too high when there is always amuch better target just a little ways down the road......

I do have to say that any anxiety I still have about OCing in an urban area is related to the higher probability of encountering a LEO with a chip on their shoulder regarding "we are the only ones cool enough to carry our guns in the open" attitudes.......it has nothing to do with any Joe Blow out here grabbing my gun or starting BS with me.....

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I would like to hear of one case where the victim was targeted by an attacker due to carrying a gun openly.

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I suspect it would be easy to find an isolated instance or even two of that happening. The question is do you base your actions on a one in a billion anomaly?

I don't hear anyone lobbying us to stop driving because someone might see us with our car and try to steal it. Car jackings are not really common but they do happen often enough that we no longer consider them uncommon.

I don't hear anyone advocating that all women stop carrying purses just because a few get snatched. What do they sayabout that? They just tell women to be more aware of their surroundings.

It's not exactly a secret that just about every man carries a wallet in his back pocket. I'm sure every mugger is already aware of that tidbit. And ripping a wallet out of someone's trousers is a lot easier than ripping a gun from it's holster. (unless of course it's a folbust and then they can just take the holster too) Is anyone saying we should stop carrying ouir wallets?

Why should possession of a firearm be treated any differently? Just because it happened to someone somewhere once upon a time doesn't mean it will become a regular occurance.- JMO-YMMV.

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BluesBear wrote:

I suspect it would be easy to find an isolated instance or even two of that happening.

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I suspect it would be rather difficult, else it would've been posted here long ago by HankT or one of the other trolls who roll through here.

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"In assessing the risk of OC v. CC, just look at those who have a long history of OC, the cops. The last 3 cops shot in WA state have been shot with thier own gun, after a struggle. This concerns me greatly for the OC crowd, especially given the fact that most cops are likely better trained in weapons retention than most non-cops."

I think far too much noise is made about retention. Sure it may be a good PR point, but a citizen has no duty to arrest a criminal. Most cops get disarmed in a struggle while they are trying to phsyically restrain, perhaps to cuff, the perp.

I am not going to arrest and cuff anyone. I have no intent to ever shoot or kill anyone. But I do understand and have resolved in my mind that there are scenarios where it may become necessary. Given the assumption that I am not likely to become a target specifically for having a firearm handy (as others have addressed, criminals are not just bad, they are lazy and at least somewhat risk-averse. there are much easier ways to steal a gun than from someone's hip.) thenchances are that having an openly-carried firearm makes me less of a target. If someone is crazy enough to physically attack me, seeing that I have a firearm, then it is time to shoot them, not try to subdue them physically and restrain them. It's not like I would approach them to arrest them for something with little or no expectation of violence and then have them turn violent because unbeknownst to me the jaywalker is actually a bank robber. That could only happen to a cop.

Also as others have pointed out, criminals who may see my firearm are not going to feel they need to "neutralize" me to keep me from arresting them; they have no expectation that I will try to arrest them. So thay are far more likely to avoid committing the crime in my presence where I may feel threatened or compelled to intervene. They are far more likely to just turn and walk the other way.

As a civilian, there are only two likely scenarios. Ether the criminal and I avoid each other, or I shoot him. The first is far more likely than the latter.

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I OC in N.VA on a regular basis and have found that the "Thug" element and their wannabe copycats give me a wide berth . They also tone down their usual obnoxious behavior as well . At no point have I felt that some one was going to try to grab my 1911 . They might succeed but the risk is greater to them than to me........

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casullshooter wrote:

I OC in N.VA on a regular basis and have found that the "Thug" element and their wannabe copycats give me a wide berth . They also tone down their usual obnoxious behavior as well . At no point have I felt that some one was going to try to grab my 1911 . They might succeed but the risk is greater to them than to me........

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The anti-gunners confuse their own imaginations with reality when it comes to guns, those of us who go about armed in defense of ourselves and our families shouldn't make the same mistake.

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thebastidge wrote:

"In assessing the risk of OC v. CC, just look at those who have a long history of OC, the cops. The last 3 cops shot in WA state have been shot with thier own gun, after a struggle. This concerns me greatly for the OC crowd, especially given the fact that most cops are likely better trained in weapons retention than most non-cops."

I think far too much noise is made about retention. Sure it may be a good PR point, but a citizen has no duty to arrest a criminal. Most cops get disarmed in a struggle while they are trying to phsyically restrain, perhaps to cuff, the perp.

I am not going to arrest and cuff anyone. I have no intent to ever shoot or kill anyone. But I do understand and have resolved in my mind that there are scenarios where it may become necessary. Given the assumption that I am not likely to become a target specifically for having a firearm handy (as others have addressed, criminals are not just bad, they are lazy and at least somewhat risk-averse. there are much easier ways to steal a gun than from someone's hip.) thenchances are that having an openly-carried firearm makes me less of a target. If someone is crazy enough to physically attack me, seeing that I have a firearm, then it is time to shoot them, not try to subdue them physically and restrain them. It's not like I would approach them to arrest them for something with little or no expectation of violence and then have them turn violent because unbeknownst to me the jaywalker is actually a bank robber. That could only happen to a cop.

Also as others have pointed out, criminals who may see my firearm are not going to feel they need to "neutralize" me to keep me from arresting them; they have no expectation that I will try to arrest them. So thay are far more likely to avoid committing the crime in my presence where I may feel threatened or compelled to intervene. They are far more likely to just turn and walk the other way.

As a civilian, there are only two likely scenarios. Ether the criminal and I avoid each other, or I shoot him. The first is far more likely than the latter.

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I agree with most of what you have said and obviously highly support open carry. That said, I think you have blown it on one point. The fact is that many criminals will probably think you are a cop. Of course they are wrong in this assumptionbut, if they think the whole city of cops is out looking for them, you could become a target.

Unlikely to actually happen? Yes. Possible? certainly.

Just put yourself in a criminal's shoes... if 99% of people openly carrying a gun are cops and you see someone carrying a gun openly, you probably think they are a cop. Hell, most people probably assume we are cops when we openly carry.

Just wanted to point out that you are not necessarily not going to be a target... if the criminal is actively hunting any cop he sees at the moment (very rare situation, but possible) you will likely be hunted as well...

(I don't believe this argument does much to the overall risk assessment of open carry vs. concealed carry... I just want to see all angles correctly when making a choice)

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The tacticle debate ends upa tie of sorts - "less filling, tastes, great!"

The real clear upside to open carry is political - gets gun carry out of the closet, sustains an important right, and educates/desensitizes both the police and the public re: citizen gun carry.

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Mike wrote:

The real clear upside to open carry is political - gets gun carry out of the closet, sustains an important right, and educates/desensitizes both the police and the public re: citizen gun carry.

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Prexactly! IF you look at our society as a whole we are a pretty tolerant bunch. Look at all of the things that are commonplace nowadays that were completely taboo just a decade or so ago. Now in some ways this is good and in other ways not so good.

Anytime carry legislation is discussed the antis scream that the streets will run red with blood from all of the gunfights that will spring out when people are allowed to carry. Of course that never happens, but there are still those few who buy into that bag of roadapples. Ifpeople start seeing other ordinary people, their friends and neighbors,going about their business peaceably while armed it, would take a true idiot to then believe the "streets will run red" horsespit.

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educates/desensitizes both the police and the public re: citizen gun carry.

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One of the primary reasons I OC despite having carry permits from multiple states. The more interaction the public has with responsible gun carriers, the better position we are in. As in an earlier post in this thread "the folks in this store see me all the time". Well, they are going to have, even if somewhat subconciously, a better image of gun owners, because they see someone carrying regularly, and hey, guess what, there's no blood running down Aisle Three.

I saw a post today on another board I frequent where a young lady said, "I don't know anyone who owns a handgun". Sorry, honey, but I'll bet you're wrong. Not everyone walks around yelling about it. But if one of your friends suddenly started carrying openly, would it automatically change your opinion of them - or would it make you think that maybe a gun doesn't automatically signify that "this is a bad person".

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zoom6zoom wrote:

One of the primary reasons I OC despite having carry permits from multiple states. The more interaction the public has with responsible gun carriers, the better position we are in. As in an earlier post in this thread "the folks in this store see me all the time". Well, they are going to have, even if somewhat subconciously, a better image of gun owners, because they see someone carrying regularly, and hey, guess what, there's no blood running down Aisle Three.

I saw a post today on another board I frequent where a young lady said, "I don't know anyone who owns a handgun". Sorry, honey, but I'll bet you're wrong. Not everyone walks around yelling about it. But if one of your friends suddenly started carrying openly, would it automatically change your opinion of them - or would it make you think that maybe a gun doesn't automatically signify that "this is a bad person".

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Unfortunately, I think that the knee-jerk reaction would be "he is now a bad person." Several people have reacted negatively to finding out I carry, openly or concealed (for various unrelated reasons, I have never been packing while around them). Fortunately, they seem to have come around when they realized I am still the same easygoing guy the first met. But there was still that initial reaction of "wow, is he really an evil gun-toting psychopath?"

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Even knowing I carried concealed almost all the time, and discussing it as a civic responsibility and personal committment to being a good citizenmany times, the first time I pulled out my holstered weapon from the small of my back and laid it on the fireplace mantle while we watched a moviein my girlfriend's house, she looked askance.

It was amazing to me how she could mentally block out that I was carrying. Even when on occasion she had to have felt it when we walked with arms around each other in public places.

She makes no bones about guns making her nervous. It took a good couple months before I could get her to handle it enough to learn basic safety like clearing the weapon. At that, I had to field strip it and hand her the pieces to examine before I put them together and handed her the empty weapon.

At least finding out that I carry was not enough to put me in the bad guy category, but it's part and parcel of who I am and I guess the image I present to the world, so it wasn't horribly shocking to her when I brought it up at first.

As for being taken for a cop when open carrying... This is a valid point, but one that I think is often over-stated. At most I might look like an off-duty cop, or one who is engaged upon other business. Critters are still far more likely to slink away with their tails tucked than go after a cop openly, especially without overwhelming numbers. And if this is the case, they are still not going to run up and try to wrestle my side arm from me: they would probably shoot at me if they were already so inclined and pre-disposed, and so retention is STILL not an issue.

It (mechanical retention) comes down to being a feel-good issue that is not an especially bad idea, that will appease some mildGFWs if y'all make enough noise about it, perhaps. But it's not likely to help much with solid GFWs. And when I say not an especially bad idea, I mean it's a matter for individual taste that I can't fault someone for doing, but don't especially wish to do myself.

Now, I do plan to take some instruction in both retention techniques and disarming techniques. I don't currently open carry (at least not at home, in the city) but expect to do so at least upon occasion in the future. Put your faith in the person (yourself) not the technology.

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FogRider wrote:

zoom6zoom wrote:

One of the primary reasons I OC despite having carry permits from multiple states. The more interaction the public has with responsible gun carriers, the better position we are in. As in an earlier post in this thread "the folks in this store see me all the time". Well, they are going to have, even if somewhat subconciously, a better image of gun owners, because they see someone carrying regularly, and hey, guess what, there's no blood running down Aisle Three.

I saw a post today on another board I frequent where a young lady said, "I don't know anyone who owns a handgun". Sorry, honey, but I'll bet you're wrong. Not everyone walks around yelling about it. But if one of your friends suddenly started carrying openly, would it automatically change your opinion of them - or would it make you think that maybe a gun doesn't automatically signify that "this is a bad person".

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Unfortunately, I think that the knee-jerk reaction would be "he is now a bad person." Several people have reacted negatively to finding out I carry, openly or concealed (for various unrelated reasons, I have never been packing while around them). Fortunately, they seem to have come around when they realized I am still the same easygoing guy the first met. But there was still that initial reaction of "wow, is he really an evil gun-toting psychopath?"

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I agree with FogRider here. I was at a Halloween party last year and went as everyone's favorite grave robber. I don't have a Colt Detective like Indy carries, but I figure a 1911A1 in a US Cavalry flap holster is close enough. Everyone was fine until a woman, whom I had up until then considered a friend, flipped out when she found out it was real. She actually thought she was in danger. She started in with "what if my one year old son was here!?!" To which I replied,"He would be safer than where ever he is now." Her and I never spoke again. The funny thing is that the only advocate I had at the party was a friend of hers. For all I know she has never spoken to him again either.

Funnyhow peoples perceptions of a person they have known for six years can just be tossed out the window. Both hers and mine...

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OC is good, but not for me.

I've been carrying concealed for about 3 months now. When I first started, I thought I would eventually OC, at least part of the time. But now I have decided that OC is not for me.

Major reason: I'm in Condition White almost all the time. There's some flashes of light yellow in parking lots and stuff, but that's about it. Now, I pocket carry, so the gun is just part of my routine: keys, wallet, phone, gun. It doesn't interfere with my life, or my mindframe, it's a just a comforting piece of steel in my pocket. I live my life as before, but I have a gun with me, it's cool.

I wouldn't be comfortable carrying OC, where it would be a necessity to be condition yellow/orange at all times to guard against gun grabbing attempts, etc. It wouldn't be safe or wise to go around with head in the clouds like I do most of the time. [I know some of you might be thinking I shouldn't go around in White regardless. I agree, but, it's the balance I've struck at this point.]

That said, I fully support the OC movement, and I am really happy that you guys and gals are out there exercising your rights and being vocal about it. (IMHO it would be a much better society if, say, 10% of adults OC'd.) Another reason I don't want to OC is that I don't want to get stopped and have tense conversations with LEOs -- and I recognize that many of the people on this forum are educating LEOs and others one person at a time.

Thanks!