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Thread: What do you think of this?

  1. #1
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    I've been thinking. If I'm ever detained for open carrying, I'm considering asking, "am I free to go" and if told no, not saying a word after that. Not answering whether I have a license. Not answering my name. Not answering whether or not I'm enjoying the weather. Just standing there, smiling with my arms folded letting the cops do whatever they're going to do (with a few "I don't consent to your hands in my pockets"). I think the conversation might get pretty boring for them rather quickly.

    -- ama-gi

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    See the information and video clips here.

    www.flexyourrights.org


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    See the information and video clips here.

    http://www.flexyourrights.org

    Well, I know it's legal. I'm asking for comments on it as a strategy, a way of combating threats of violence by showing that you are a victim, a way of ending the conversation sooner and a way of getting the police to realize in frustration that their stops of innocent people is a pointless waste of time. I've been seeing some videos lately of others doing that during stops...not saying anything...and it seems to work quite well.

    Cop: Do you know why I'm stopping you

    ...

    Cop: why am I stopping you

    ...

    Cop: You're not going to talk to me?

    ...

    Cop: I just want to talk to you

    ...

    Eventually, the cop is forced to just walk away, since there's no crime to arrest for and the conversation gets boring pretty fast.

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    Strategy will depend on the exact circumstances and the exact police officer in front of you.

    Personally, I think a decision to literally say nothing limits your options. You can always ask questions back. Who knows, maybe you'll get something useful for your complaint.

    Akey element is to not give information to the police that they can use against you. The OC'er will not know what was reported to the police by the 911 caller. The police may even lie to you about it. Letssayan anti- called 911 anonymously and falsely reported you were waving a gun in the park. The police stop you two blocks away and ask if you were walking through the park a few minutes ago. Being polite and cooperative, you say yes, outenjoying a nice stroll. Well, great. You just confirmed for the police that you are probably the guy reported on. Remember, they wouldn't be asking if they didn't need the information.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    It certainly is a legal action and your right to remain silent. The other factor in the equation is the officer and his reaction or non reaction. He may feel justified in further action depending on other information you cannot at the time of the stop know unless he tells you.

    To more indirectly answer your question I say it depends on your "impression" of the officer's demeanor and tone of questioning. Is he sincerely investigating a complaint and has RS to detain? You may never know until after a FOIA. Giving a little bit of info about your self may save an OCer a bigger headache later.

    Case in point: A call of an armed robbery went out from a near by town with a good description of the vehiclethe occupants (three shaved heads being part of the description) and the last known direction.

    One of our cars found a vehicle matching that description with three shaved headed occupantsshortly after the call went out. We conducted a "Terry" investigative stop based on the above info. in a "felony" stop fashion believing the occupantsmight be armed. Now keep in mind that at this point no violation of any other kind had occurred so the driver would have every reason to believe it was an unjustified stop even though it wasn't.

    The occupants were called out with clear specific instructionsone at a time and hand cuffed. The car was secured (no other occupants) and a brief sweep for weapons revealed none and no other evidence was in plain sight.

    They were technically then in custody so "Miranda" rights were read before we started to ask some simple question like "where were you about 1/2 hour ago, where areyou coming from, what are you names", etc... None of the occupants would talk to us, they just clammed up which is not normal albeit not illegal. Usually everyone is willing to converse with us so it did raise natural suspicions.

    The other department brought over their victim/witness for a "field show up" to possibly ID them as suspects. The witness said it was a positive ID on two of the suspects. So those two were arrested on her IDing them as being involved in the armed robbery and the driver was taken too, suspecting he was the get a way driver. Although not specifically IDed, he was arrested as the other "facts" (like the vehicle description and ID on the suspects) made it reasonable to suspect he was involved too in a felony crime.

    After they were booked and the car taken as evidence then all of a sudden they wanted to talk. They claimed they were at arestaurant for several hours and only left minutes before they were stopped. We were familiar with theplace and it has a really good camera system. Tapes were retrieved and reviewed several hours later and proved they could not have done it as they and their vehicle were at therestaurant at the time of the robbery. They were released quickly and the booking reversed.

    They still didn't need to talk. They could have remained silent, been stuck in jail if they couldn't afford the felony bail, and waited for their defense attorney to retrieve the proof of their innocence (if it still existed) to show to the prosecutor.

    They voluntarily provided truthful and luckily verifiable info that saved them from a huge hassle and possible false conviction if a jury believed the victim over three shaved heads. (still it would have been near impossible to get a conviction without more evidence like the stolen cash, weapon used etc...) But search warrants would have been done on their residences and or places of business looking for that evidence. Who knows what else then may have been found legally.

    Just food for thought.

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    cato wrote:
    SNIP Case in point: A call of an armed robbery went out from a near by town with a good description of the vehiclethe occupants (three shaved heads being part of the description) and the last known direction.
    Good point, Cato.

    How does one evaluate and apply the information provided in the post?

    In the example provided, the citizens had no way to evaluate whetherinformation they might provide could be helpful or hurtful. What if their restaurantjust happened to be located near the robbery, and they had left two minutes before?

    What information did they have that could help them decide whether cooperation was beneficial?They seemingly didn't have enough information to decide whether to cooperate until after they were charged. Any citizen in their shoes denied or perhaps lied to about the information neededmay bein the same insufficiency.

    How were they or anybody else supposed to decide? Rely on the good graces and integrity of the police officer who is a total stranger to you?

    My default setting is to stand on my rights. I may not be able to know cooperation would have been beneficial until after its all over.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    SNIP...
    You can always ask questions back. Who knows, maybe you'll get something useful for your complaint.

    Never underestimate the power of asking: "Why do you ask?"

    A neighbor says: "How much money do you make?"

    A co-worker says: "What did you pay for that car?"

    A cop says: "Where are you coming from? Where are you going? Why do you have that gun?"

    Asking: "Why do you ask?" puts the nosy neighbor on the defensive and inverts the police interrogation.

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    doug23838 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    SNIP...
    You can always ask questions back. Who knows, maybe you'll get something useful for your complaint.

    Never underestimate the power of asking: "Why do you ask?"

    A neighbor says: "How much money do you make?"

    A co-worker says: "What did you pay for that car?"

    A cop says: "Where are you coming from? Where are you going? Why do you have that gun?"

    Asking: "Why do you ask?" puts the nosy neighbor on the defensive and inverts the police interrogation.
    What you will get from "Why do you ask?", is "I'm asking the questions here."

    I tried the complete silence thing once. I got threatened with an obstruction charge. It wouldn't have stuck, but what a pain in the ass it could have turned out to be.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    I tried the complete silence thing once. I got threatened with an obstruction charge. It wouldn't have stuck, but what a pain in the ass it could have turned out to be.
    Yeah, it of course wouldn't have stuck. I think cops make threats like that knowing they won't follow through. I'm tired of watching my fellow Americans give into threats.

    Thanks for telling me though. Forewarned is forearmed.

  10. #10
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    Citizen wrote:
    How does one evaluate and apply the information provided in the post?


    You can't really. Remaining silent is sort of likethe personal decision to CC or OC. In my example it was impossible for the subjects to know the reason for the stop and thereby mitigate our suspicion with non-incriminating answers. From the cop side people who remain totally silent do raise a natural suspicion.

    For an OCer toanswer any questioning withsomething like the following might be the best of both worlds, "I understand you're investigating something perhaps related to my firearm so I respectfully decline to answerspecifics but I'll just say I carry for self defense and I like exercising my rights peacefully. Is there any thing wrong with that?" or "what am I being accused of?"

    Having some kind of recording puts a lot more cards in the deck of someone who wishes to remain totally silent as their primary response to a detention and questioning regarding OC or other cause of a police encounter.




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    If i was an Leo I would have understood the situation and just tell you the faults that you are in if any and hand you the ticket and go about my business. Ihope they have person like me in police agency.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    1. What you will get from "Why do you ask?", is "I'm asking the questions here."

    2. I tried the complete silence thing once. I got threatened with an obstruction charge. It wouldn't have stuck, but what a pain in the ass it could have turned out to be.
    1. Not necessarily. But it will reveal quite a bit about the officer's demeanor and attitude if it hasn't already become evident.

    2. I suspect that it not only wouldn't have stuck, but a judge might have handed the cop his head. Summonsed for exercising your constitutional rights, indeed.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    1. What you will get from "Why do you ask?", is "I'm asking the questions here."

    2. I tried the complete silence thing once. I got threatened with an obstruction charge. It wouldn't have stuck, but what a pain in the ass it could have turned out to be.
    1. Not necessarily. But it will reveal quite a bit about the officer's demeanor and attitude if it hasn't already become evident.

    2. I suspect that it not only wouldn't have stuck, but a judge might have handed the cop his head. Summonsed for exercising your constitutional rights, indeed.
    Have you seen Danbus' new thread? He just got charged by HPD with obstruction. It seems to be one of their favorite ways to bully citizens into giving up their rights.

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    Yes, I saw it.

    Let them bully. They can only get away with it because citizens don't know the rules. As soon as they run into somebody who knows the rulesand takes action, their little thuggery games start to cost them.

    At the last VCDL meeting, one of the Tony's Seven pointed out that three police officers received written reprimands over the Tony's incident. Or more precisely over the e-mails. Ouch!


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  15. #15
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    Citizen wrote:
    Yes, I saw it.

    Let them bully. They can only get away with it because citizens don't know the rules. As soon as they run into somebody who knows the rulesand takes action, their little thuggery games start to cost them.

    At the last VCDL meeting, one of the Tony's Seven pointed out that three police officers received written reprimands over the Tony's incident. Or more precisely over the e-mails. Ouch!

    I hope Danbus can tear HPD a new one over his problem.

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    doug23838 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    SNIP...
    You can always ask questions back. Who knows, maybe you'll get something useful for your complaint.

    Never underestimate the power of asking: "Why do you ask?"

    A neighbor says: "How much money do you make?"

    A co-worker says: "What did you pay for that car?"

    A cop says: "Where are you coming from? Where are you going? Why do you have that gun?"

    Asking: "Why do you ask?" puts the nosy neighbor on the defensive and inverts the police interrogation.
    Good points. People ask the darndest things. Even when they are not entitled to the answers. Even when they simply want to use the answer to attempt some rhetorical categorizationor other, based on exclusion usually.

    Most of the time, they don't realize they do it.

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    First, make sure your state is not on the list of Stop and Identify Statutes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...80.9D_statutes

    The four big things from the 'Flex Your Rights: Busted' video:

    1) Identification: If you are and a police officer asks for identification, give him your name, address, destination, then shut up.

    2) Other Questions: For any other questions, simply state, "Sir, I have no answers to your questions until I consult with my lawyer." This will invoke both your Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights.

    3) Searches: Say, "Officer, I am not resisting, but I do not consent to any search."

    4) Dismissal: "Am I free to leave?" If not, "Am I being detained?" If 'No', repeat #4 until you get a 'Yes' you're being detained or 'Yes' you're free to leave.


    Police are not required to tell you why you're being charged and, in fact, they can change charges from what they tell you initially. Also, you do not need to be Mirandized unless, during the course of questioning, a question they ask you might ilicit an incriminating response. Also, if the police feel they have enough evidence against you without any statements, they won't read your Miranda rights either.

    IANAL.

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