Disturbing Bar Fight

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Hi, I'm new here so first I'll introduce myself. I live in Arizona where open carry is legal but bringing a firearm into or on the bar premises is illegal except in "emergency conditions." I just recently became a gun owner and own a semi-auto pistol and a pump-action shotgun. I regularly open carry where it is allowed or where there won't be too much objection. Also, I've been reading this forum for some time but just haven't gotten around to posting yet. Sorry, but this might be a bit long:

Anyway, I was at a bar in central Phoenix having a couple of drinks (three to be exact) and after some waters and becoming sober enough to drive home, I say bye to my friends and walk out of the bar. The second I step outside a man crashes right into me after being shoved by a second man. The next thing I know the man that just hit me was threatening the other man with a beer bottle while the man that pushed him was threatening him with a pocket knife but a big enough one to hurt or kill someone without much trouble. Then there are at least two more men to my right and another three to the left all screaming and cussing at one another. All of this is going on as the bar security who happens to be overweight and near 70 years old is inside reading the Arizona Republic newspaper.

Before I could even get to my car, one of the men jumped into his car and starts trying to run over several of the others who start playing a cat-and-mouse game of running up to the car and then jumping out of the way as the car tries to hit them again. So I go to my car, get out my Glock 19 pistol and strap it on to my hip. Without saying a word to any of them I move away about 30-50 feet from the trouble and stare at them with my hand on the gun ready to pullit out. Immediately, the other six men get in their cars and leave and the seventh in the assault vehicle does not circle back around and leaves. I picked up the knife that one of the criminals dropped before leaving. Naturally, this is when the bouncer comes out to the parking lot and only sees me with the gun on my hip and a knife in my hand.

Since I am a regular at this place, he didn't seem too upset after I explained the situation. Catch this, though. I go back to the place afterwards and the manager was furious at me. I thought I was going to get 86ed but instead was just chewed out. She says, "You don't be sportin' that gun 'round here or I'm callin' the cops next time. You shouldn't get involved in that crap. Next time, youjust go and get our security and we'll handle it. You put our liquor license in jeapordy by bringing that gun here." I asked them what I should do when someone tries to attack me and she says, "Our security is here to protect you. Don't be pullin' that gun o' yours."

My conclusions on this whole ordeal:

What I found most disturbing was not the fight but the way in which our society deals with defensive situations. People have the right to be secure in their persons. This wasn't a case of "getting involved" because I was involved automatically the second I was hit by the guy with the bottle. This is supposed to be the "land of the free" and not the "land of the scared." My opinion is that a civilized person who is adequately trained or equipped to deal with a problematic situation should do what they can to help. Unfortunately, we don't live in avery civilized society when corporate liability is more important than personal safety. I had a legal right according to Arizona law to get that gun and bring it on the property and I would have also been well within my rights to shoot the three that were threatening with weapons. It seems to me that the general gun-fearing liability-minded public has lost its logic. Instead of getting proper credit for potentially saving a lot of lives, you get scolded for doing the right thing. About her saying she would call the cops on me, seriously didn't the cops need to be called? If seven men are attacking each other, clearly the cops need to be called. Clearly, if a problem is out of control enough that I actually have to get my gun, then it probably means that the cops are needed. Stoooopid.

I assume most of the board members here (as with the rest of the law-abiding gun owners) see somewhat eye-to-eye (but please give me your input). If I had left the scene or gotten the security, chances are someone would have been hurt or killed. Every second the fight was escalating and ten seconds wasted could have easily resulted in someone getting run over and another person stabbed. But the bar manager's opinion is basically "Don't worry about it. We can always have a candle-light vigil" afterwards. Not to mention, had I have gotten the security do any of you think he would have wanted to get involved? I had pepperspray, a gun, and a police baton within access. The bouncer was heavily armed with a pocket-sized flashlight.

Anyway, I find this complacent and fearful attitude of our society disturbing and clearly uncivilized. People would rather stand around watching someone or multiple people getting killed as long as it isn't happening to them. Several witnesses were there but none of them did anything. They didn't even get security. He simply happened to come outside for his routine cigarette break. Am I supposed to believe what the manager said that "bar security" is "here to protect me?" She had the nerve to say that there is no reason why I need to bring a gun there. Clearly, I needed that gun. Virginia Tech also told their students they didn't need guns because their security/police was there to protect them. None of the 32 victims last April apparently needed a gun either.

I guess the moral of the story is that when you live in an uncivilized society and if you want a job done right, you have to do it yourself. Either you have to carry a gun for your safety or someone has to carry it for you.If we lived in a logical world, every clerk at the 7-Eleven would have a shotgun behind the counter. Anyway, I'm going to remind the bar manager to erect signs at the entrance of the bar saying "This is a gun-free bar. No weapons allowed. Criminals Exempt." Anyway, that's my rant.

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Having only the details you posted, here's my take on it.

1. Once you made it to your car, it sounds like the belligerents weren't interested in you. If that is the case, in your shoes, I would have stayed at the car, perhaps even inside it, weapon ready but inconspciuous, gotten on the cell phone to call the cops, and watched from a distance to be a witness. You can't be sure who started the fight, who, if anyone was in the rights, so intervening is probably a good way to get burned and wind up in the paddy wagon with the rest of the bunch.

2. I certainly wouldn't have touched that knife!

My opinion is based ont he fact that I have no desire whatever to be a cop or stick my nose into other peoples' disputes. If someone I know was being threatened with a broken bottle, it becomes a different story.

I agree with you on the general wet-diaper attitude of many people, though.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

EDIT: I suppose if it was 6 guys piling on one guy to beat him sensless or stab him to death it might be pretty tough to stay out of it. But I would try to stay out if I could.

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Tomahawk wrote:

Having only the details you posted, here's my take on it.

1. Once you made it to your car, it sounds like the belligerents weren't interested in you. If that is the case, in your shoes, I would have stayed at the car, perhaps even inside it, weapon ready but inconspciuous, gotten on the cell phone to call the cops, and watched from a distance to be a witness. You can't be sure who started the fight, who, if anyone was in the rights, so intervening is probably a good way to get burned and wind up in the paddy wagon with the rest of the bunch.

2. I certainly wouldn't have touched that knife!

My opinion is based ont he fact that I have no desire whatever to be a cop or stick my nose into other peoples' disputes. If someone I know was being threatened with a broken bottle, it becomes a different story.

I agree with you on the general wet-diaper attitude of many people, though.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

EDIT: I suppose if it was 6 guys piling on one guy to beat him sensless or stab him to death it might be pretty tough to stay out of it. But I would try to stay out if I could.

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I agree completely!

The only time you get involved in something is when your life, or someone else's is in extreme danger. Otherwise, be a good witness and call the cops.

And the cry-babies that don't want you to be able to defend yourself or others at need make me sick. What would the manager have done if someone had been stabbed to death while his "security guard" sat inside? He probably would've griped about what this world is coming to and gone on with his day. What would he have said to you if you had used your gun to defend someones life? He probably would've kicked you out for life because you're a trouble maker. :quirky

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Tomahawk wrote:

Having only the details you posted, here's my take on it.

1. Once you made it to your car, it sounds like the belligerents weren't interested in you. If that is the case, in your shoes, I would have stayed at the car, perhaps even inside it, weapon ready but inconspciuous, gotten on the cell phone to call the cops, and watched from a distance to be a witness. You can't be sure who started the fight, who, if anyone was in the rights, so intervening is probably a good way to get burned and wind up in the paddy wagon with the rest of the bunch.

2. I certainly wouldn't have touched that knife!

My opinion is based ont he fact that I have no desire whatever to be a cop or stick my nose into other peoples' disputes. If someone I know was being threatened with a broken bottle, it becomes a different story.

I agree with you on the general wet-diaper attitude of many people, though.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

EDIT: I suppose if it was 6 guys piling on one guy to beat him sensless or stab him to death it might be pretty tough to stay out of it. But I would try to stay out if I could.

Click to expand...

+1 Yata hey

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That is the reason why I stood at a safe distance and did not fire a shot. Everyone and everything was happening so fast and I could not figure out who was in the right and who was in the wrong. I also had parked cars nearby that I could jump behind in case they did pull guns themselves. The reason I did get involved to the degree that I did was that some of my friends were still inside the bar and this was a case where an innocent bystander could walk out at the wrong time and get killed. It was a complicated situation. I agree about picking up the knife because that puts my fingerprints on it and perhaps removes someone else's fingerprints that may have been needed for investigation. I picked it up and confiscated it basically because I wanted to remove all unattended weapons from the area for everyone's safety.

One other thought is that had the anti-gun media picked up on this, instead of a newspaper article titled "Armed citizen ends dangerous bar-fight" it would have said "Gunman enters Phoenix bar."

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You still had alcohol in your system after drinking w/your buddies (3?). I'd have stayed put in my car, called the police, and if sober enough to drive as you say (I don't drive to bars, and I rarely drink otherwise) I'd have made that phone call on my way home. It'd be hard pressed to know who started it, and for what reason, and although nobody wants to see another person get stabbed, the parties invovled both seemed to be in it by their own choice from the description... definitely a no-win if either/both decided to turn on you in the end.

If you just had that bad feeling, I'd say just hang in your car until the police got there, and roll with whatever happened until then.

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Dude not your job for self defense only i think or to protect family or friends. But do not p/u the knife you should have just left the scene when making it to your car, or if you wish,stick around and watch to gather details for the police when they arrive, if you want to be one talk to LEO 229 he might have some idea,s for you...

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Hind sight is always much clearer. In the heat of the moment, things happen too fast without the opportunity for clear rational thought. I like the "what if" approach to possible events like this. Everywhere we go we should practice mind set training and have a plan. Obviously all possibilities cannot be mentally practiced, but you will reduce the probabilities for serious errors this way.

I might consider an other establishment and not mix two volatile compounds in the future.
Yata hey

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I think part of the problem is that even if you are technically within legal rights that doesn't mean the police will see it that way. Even if you have a BAC far below the legal driving limit, they will still term you a "drunk man with a gun." I guess it is a good learning experience considering that none of the innocent bystanders were hurt and the problem did seem to be solved at least on the property. I think that as gun owners especially those of us who do open carry that it is good to go through many what-if scenarios in our head at least to increase the chances of making the right choice when the event happens. This was one of those cases that I would have never dreamed up. One thing that worked in my favor actually was the fact that the bar had surveillance cameras that recorded the entire thing. So at least the facts would not be distorted. Anyone who would review the tape would see that I was the calm and rational one compared to the rest of the bunch.

Another thought is that crazies like that could suddenly turn on you simply due to the fact that you happened to be a witness. Suppose that one of them had already been stabbed just as I walked out, then I would be the only witness at that given moment and they would be coming after me. Again, a complicated situation but at least it did turn out ok. I am going to try to post some thoughts and questions about general open carry in some of theother forum categories as this is still somewhat new to me.

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A question I do have for forum members here:

Since I do still have this knife in my possession would you recommend that I

A. Destroy/discard the knife.

B. Sell the knife.

C. Turn the knife in to the police.

D. Hold on to it for a while?

The more I think about it, the more uncomfortable it makes mefeel having a criminal's knife in my possession. I admit that it may have been a dumb choice picking it up. I think we all realize, however, that when adrenaline is pumping and quick decisions have to be made, that it isn't near as simple dealing with the real-life event than it is when going through the scene as a what-if scenario in our minds.

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Deadly weapons were already intoduced to the situation, an aggravated battery had already occurred, someones life was being threatened by somebody with a deadly weapon. Most likely would be legally justified, but you may not have an affirmative defense since you put yourself back into harms way. You can imagine infinate scenerios of "what if". In my opinoin it ended in an appropriate fasion, but I would rethink that action if presented with it again.

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Have the police started an investigation? If so then it might be a good idea to turn in the knife. If not, then finders keepers (he did drop it after all) :lol:

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thebiggest mistake you made was sticking around. get in your car and drive away.

the bar manager was right. he has security people there to take care of these problems. he does not need or want you sticking your amateur a$$ into it.

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Self defense is just that.

By retreiiving your gun and re-introducing yourself to the situation (even fro ma distance) you becae a player in the incident. Period.
Sorry, from your account written here you did wrong.

Once you were free of the incident you should have remained free of it unless perhaps you had family or another companion stilll involved.

You had no interest in the incident and therefor were not defending yourself (again, to which the goal is to evade and survive)

It's that simple.

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Pa. Patriot wrote:

Self defense is just that.

By retreiiving your gun and re-introducing yourself to the situation (even fro ma distance) you becae a player in the incident. Period.
Sorry, from your account written here you did wrong.

Once you were free of the incident you should have remained free of it unless perhaps you had family or another companion stilll involved.

You had no interest in the incident and therefor were not defending yourself (again, to which the goal is to evade and survive)

It's that simple.

Click to expand...

I don't know about AZ but many states recognize self defense as also lawful defense of others. Common sense, good judgement and what is lawful are often not in parody.

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The only thing i'd do differently is call the cops, and not touch the knife.

Maybe ask them about trying to break it up.

but i still think you did nothing wrong (aside from grabbing that knife)... if i was on the receiving end of a bar fight (i always back down if i can), i'd prefer someone to help end it rather than be an audience. that whole civic duty, blah blah blah stuff.


do you call the cops and drive off if you see a car accident? i hope not... i'd hope you you'd stop and see if you can help.

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gsh341 wrote:

Tomahawk wrote:

Having only the details you posted, here's my take on it.

1. Once you made it to your car, it sounds like the belligerents weren't interested in you. If that is the case, in your shoes, I would have stayed at the car, perhaps even inside it, weapon ready but inconspciuous, gotten on the cell phone to call the cops, and watched from a distance to be a witness. You can't be sure who started the fight, who, if anyone was in the rights, so intervening is probably a good way to get burned and wind up in the paddy wagon with the rest of the bunch.

2. I certainly wouldn't have touched that knife!

My opinion is based ont he fact that I have no desire whatever to be a cop or stick my nose into other peoples' disputes. If someone I know was being threatened with a broken bottle, it becomes a different story.

I agree with you on the general wet-diaper attitude of many people, though.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

EDIT: I suppose if it was 6 guys piling on one guy to beat him sensless or stab him to death it might be pretty tough to stay out of it. But I would try to stay out if I could.

Click to expand...

I agree completely!

The only time you get involved in something is when your life, or someone else's is in extreme danger. Otherwise, be a good witness and call the cops.

And the cry-babies that don't want you to be able to defend yourself or others at need make me sick. What would the manager have done if someone had been stabbed to death while his "security guard" sat inside? He probably would've griped about what this world is coming to and gone on with his day. What would he have said to you if you had used your gun to defend someones life? He probably would've kicked you out for life because you're a trouble maker. :quirky

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At least In Utah I would have been fine to use it in defense of myself and the other Guys that the car tried to run over. But then again..which one of 'em fellers started it??? Is defense ALWAYS defense for anybody that you are trying to protect even though they "started it"???

The duty is that ALL men have the RIGHT to be defened.


76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(2) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in Subsection (1) if he or she:
(a) initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
(b) is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
(c) (i) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and, notwithstanding, the other person continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force; and
(ii) for purposes of Subsection (i) the following do not, by themselves, constitute "combat by agreement":
(A) voluntarily entering into or remaining in an ongoing relationship; or
(B) entering or remaining in a place where one has a legal right to be.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(c).
(4) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6. Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony. Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
(5) In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
(a) the nature of the danger;
(b) the immediacy of the danger;
(c) the probability that the unlawful force would result in death or serious bodily injury;
(d) the other's prior violent acts or violent propensities; and
(e) any patterns of abuse or violence in the parties' relationship.


Amended by Chapter 26, 1994 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_02022.ZIP 3,271 Bytes


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Last revised: Thursday, July 19, 2007

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It's hard to say what a person would have done without being in the situation. However, if I saw one guy with a deadly weapon (a knife) threatening another guy with a deadly weapon (a broken bottle), I would be well within my rights to draw and/or fire on either of them here in Washington (You can use deadly force in the defense of others as well as in defense of yourself).

I think the question is less of "what should you legally do?" and more "How much trouble are you willing to go through to save a stranger?". In the case of friends or family, anyone who threatens them with a deadly weapon is getting a few new holes. Plain and simple. I'm willling to spend a night in jail, front bail, go to trial, etc. to save the life of a friend. To save the life of a stranger, it's not so cut and dry. Especially when said stranger is quite possibly the guy who started it (or someone who damn well deserves it).

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ilbob wrote:

thebiggest mistake you made was sticking around. get in your car and drive away.

the bar manager was right. he has security people there to take care of these problems. he does not need or want you sticking your amateur a$$ into it.

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Actually, I did not stay very long after the attackers had left and since the security did see me I mentioned to him my side of the story in case the police were going to get involved. Then I left shortly thereafter. As to being an "amateur" how would the manager or security know that? I couldhave also been an undercover cop who may have been able to fine them for some sort of negligence. I've also been in a number of problematic situations where I was directly threatened and/or attacked AND I was unarmed and I have never been hurt yet and pretty much all of those incidences were handled the best I could given the circumstances. Compared to someone with lengthly self-defense training, I may be considered an amateur. But before spouting your rather offensive and judgmental comments, realize that I was far less "amateur" than the stupid security who didn't even have so much as a can of Mace on him and was completely unaware of what was going on.

Should I had instead gone inside the club and yelled at the security guard, the only response I would have received was "Huh?" after having to explain the situation three times before he got off his fat ass. By that time someone would have been stabbed and perhaps an innocent bystander could have walked out at the wrong time and been hit by the assaulting vehicle, a thrown bottle, or a man running with a knife. Perhaps even a friend of mine who was still in the club. As to the police, I used to call them even when I witnessed third-party problems but 100% of the time, nothing useful was done, they would bypass the problem, and come straight to me making me repeat the same story over and over. Virtually every time, they would be more interested in me than the criminals who were getting away.

Anyway, I think advice from others basically saying "don't become a vigilante" as in "don't get involved in unnecessary situations" makes perfect sense. However, considering there were people inside the club whose safety I do care about and whose lives do mean something to me, I felt that phoning the police or getting security would waste too much time. If anything, a compromise would be to go and get the gun and THEN get security and call the cops. Not the other way around.

I believe this was a case of a conflict-of-interest between management protecting property and liability and an armed citizen protecting the lives of people who come before property. Even if I was in the wrong, management was in the wrong before the situation even started due to having security not doing his duty and especially security who is not even trained or equipped properly to deal with it.

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Pa. Patriot wrote:

Self defense is just that.

By retreiiving your gun and re-introducing yourself to the situation (even fro ma distance) you becae a player in the incident. Period.
Sorry, from your account written here you did wrong.

Once you were free of the incident you should have remained free of it unless perhaps you had family or another companion stilll involved.

You had no interest in the incident and therefor were not defending yourself (again, to which the goal is to evade and survive)

It's that simple.

Click to expand...

It wasn't that simple. Arizona law first of all does allow "defense of a third party." If you walk into a 7-Eleven and the clerk is being held at gunpoint by a robber, you can shoot the robber even if the robber doesn't care about you. I did still have friends inside the club so there were other people involved. If you remember in the first post, the second I stepped out a man crashed into me after being pushed by another man who was then wielding a knife. Supposed I had walked out two seconds later and instead had the man with the knife crash right into me? With the fight going on right in front of the bar entrance and my car also close to the entrance, it wasn't even very feasible to go back in the club to get security, and even jumping in the car and taking off could have quickly been blocked by the fighting crowd in the way of me backing out. The first thing I did was grab that gun just in case it got even more serious. The more I think about it, the more I feel I did basically do the right thing but I wanted to hear others' inputs nonetheless.