OC in Metropolitan Los Angeles

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(OCU - open carry unloaded)

I cut my range time at Angeles short today because the wind and my cold was making me miserable. My girlfriend, also sick, decided to stay home so I thought I would give open carry a try.

My friend wanted to have some coffee and was going to be at another friends muscle car performance shop doing some work. Our friend owns the whole property and there is one last bay that requires you to walk on the sidewalk to get to. This seemed like a good chance to get a small taste of open carry in public.

Took a nap and woke up around 7pm. Drove to the shop with holster on but my revolver in the trunk. Placed my unloaded revolver in my OWB belt holster and a loaded speed loader in my pocket. There were a lot of people inside my friend's shop, where I have permission to carry concealed, so I concealed with my t-shirt. No one identified that I was carrying.

When closing time came around 8:30, I switched to open carry and moved my car to the street. Spent some time out on the sidewalk closing gates and deciding where to eat. Unholstered and stored the revolver in the trunk to drive to another friend's apartment. Ended up having to park one block over so I reholstered and open carried again.

We ordered from a chinese restaurant two blocks down so I walked with one friend to pick up our box of food. None of the employees noticed I was open carrying; paid for our food and waited outside. When the waiter brought out our box of food, I noticed his eyes went wide while he was handing me the box. He asked me "Real?", and I explained it was, and that I was carrying unloaded. We had a small amount of chit-chat about what type of revolver it was while I went back inside to get more chili sauce.

Stopped by El Pollo Loco on the walk back to grab three coca colas. The cashier seemed very nervous while she was taking my order; had to repeat it four times. Filled up and mentioned to my friend that only the one waiter mentioned I was carrying. To my surprise, not even my friend had noticed.

Walked back with the food and asked my other friends if they had noticed. None of them had noticed I was open carrying.





I chose not to open carry while driving because the likelyhood of interaction with law enforcement for me has always increased while driving.

I open carried today because I was fairly confident of myself, the law, and the minimum exposure with my plans but I'd like to be secure in the future. Is it possible for a city to regulate open-carry further than the state? What can I possibly do to get something in writing from an official source that it is not against the law?

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

Is it possible for a city to regulate open-carry further than the state? What can I possibly do to get something in writing from an official source that it is not against the law?

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California has complete preemption except a city or county may enact restrictions or prohibitions regarding the carry and possessionof loaded firearms. As you probably know, Measure H in San Fransicko was struck down, as it exceeded current State law.

I doubt that there is any official source that will provide the affirmation you are seeking. In fact, if you do ask, I would expect that they will say and do anything (including lie) to discourage the practice of open carry in any of its forms. There are a few resources in the California forum that outline the legalities- Flyers and pamphlets written by Mudcamper, CaLibertarian, and myself. However, none of us are officers or attorneys.

I can appreciate the added caution that you'd like to excersize, but I have a couple of comments- Firstly, if you have not been issued a validlicense to carry concealed- do not conceal your firearm. (And please, do not tell us here whether you are licensed to conceal or not.) It is a misdemeanor which will almost certainly result in the seizure of your firearm. Second, I believe that the safest place for my firearm is inmy holster. I make it a point not to handle it unless I have to, and in most cases, this is while I am on my property. I have a couple of reasons why I do this.Since a firearm carried in a belt holster is not concidered concealed by PC12025, there is no need to carry it in a locked container unless you are in a school zone as described by PC626.9- Then there is the issue of someone observing you handling your firearm- You have to think about what is more descrete- As you have already noted, few even observed you were armed in your first outing. And as you have probably read about similar experiences inShasta Countyand Turlock- this is the norm. I believe unholstering everytime you get into your vehicle and holstering everytime you get out could instigate the response of the policethat you wish to avoid while driving.

I want to conclude my comments with a congratulations on taking your rights back and exerting your perogative to be armed. I am stunned that someone from L.A. has come to the board and participated inthis fledgling movement. I am grateful to make your aquaintence, and hope to see more of you around the California forum.

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As ConditionThree pointed out, I don't want to know if you have a CCW permit. However, for the benefit of newcomers who might not know this, I will point out that it is not a good idea to unholster your weapon to put it in your trunk.

12026.1 (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen... from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

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So, in order for you to legally 'conceal' a firearm in your trunk, it needs to be transported directly to/from the vehicle in a locked case. So, unholstering a weapon to put it in your trunk would not qualify for the exception granted by 12026.1.

Unfortunately, this makes navigating through the city very perilous for those of us without CCW permission. Since I cannot legally go from OC to 12026.1, as you are severely limited in where you can OC.

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It is with the actions and research of people like ConditionThree, CA_Libertarian and the other people that have been exercising their rights on this board that I gained the confidence to open carry. I am grateful to have made all of your acquaintances.


I also had not thought of the issues that both of you have brought up. I agree with both of you. Thanks, I will rething my plans for open carry accordingly. I'm just going to have to figure out how to deal with PC626.9 considering I live 1 block away from a k-5 school.

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

...I'm just going to have to figure out how to deal with PC626.9 considering I live 1 block away from a k-5 school.

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I've found Google Maps to be very helpful. Schools are usually easy to pick out on the satellite images, especially in urban areas (just look for the big patches of green). Just find a school, then zoom in until the scale at the bottom is at 1,000' and it's pretty easy to define that school zone.

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Finding the school is not an issue; I can see it out the back window, but open carrying out-the-door is a problem as once I drive my vehicle off of my property, I am immediately within 200(!) feet of a grade school causing 626.9 to come into effect.

While thinking about what you said earlier though, the following came to mind:

CA_Libertarian wrote

As ConditionThree pointed out I don't want to know if you have a CCW permit. However, for the benefit of newcomers who might not know this, I will point out that it is not a good idea to unholster your weapon to put it in your trunk.

12026.1 (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen... from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

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So, in order for you to legally 'conceal' a firearm in your trunk, it needs to be transported directly to/from the vehicle in a locked case. So, unholstering a weapon to put it in your trunk would not qualify for the exception granted by 12026.1.

Unfortunately, this makes navigating through the city very perilous for those of us without CCW permission. Since I cannot legally go from OC to 12026.1, as you are severely limited in where you can OC.

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I think we've made the first common mistake MudCamper referred to in the OpenCarryFlyer. 12026.1 is not a restriction, it's an exception to 12025. OC -> 12026.1 -> OC seems possible.

12026.1 states a handgun in a locked case is not concealed. It also states it's not concealed if it's carried to or from any motor vehicle in a locked container for any lawful purpose.


I cannot see anything that states the handgun must remain in the locked case once it enters the vehicle cabin. It states it must remain in the locked case while carrying, not while transporting. Once it enters the vehicle cabin in a locked container, it can be freed to switch to unloaded open carry, which so far seems to be a lawful purpose (where not restricted).

I also don't see anything preventing open carry to or from the vehicle. 12026.1(a)(2) would allow you to open carry to a vehicle and carry away from a vehicle in a locked container or carry to a vehicle in a locked container and carry away from a vehicle open. If that is correct, 12026.1 is truly a means of protection and not a restriction.



Does this work?
1) put on holster and place handgun in a locked container.
2) carry the locked container to vehicle
3) drive 1000 feet away from adjacent grade school
4) stop and open locked container, holster unloaded weapon
5) exercise right

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

Does this work?
1) put on holster and place handgun in a locked container.
2) carry the locked container to vehicle
3) drive 1000 feet away from adjacent grade school
4) stop and open locked container, holster unloaded weapon
5) exercise right

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Admittedly, its not practical to follow the law to the letter like this, but this is the series of steps I would take to adhere to the ridiculous restrictions being imposed until they are repealed.

To figure a thousand feet, your odometer must tick off 2/10ths of a mile, which is 1056 feet, assuming your odo is accurate.

If you still have any doubts, I'd say it would be time to consult an attorney, just to be sure.

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

Does this work?
1) put on holster and place handgun in a locked container.
2) carry the locked container to vehicle
3) drive 1000 feet away from adjacent grade school
4) stop and open locked container, holster unloaded weapon
5) exercise right

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Intuitively, yes that's the only way for you to obey 626.9. However, technically, the only time it is OK to have a concealed weapon is when you fall under an exemption outlined in 12026, 12026.1, et al. I don't think this is the purpose of the legislation, however, I think an ambitious LEO or DA could get a conviction just the same. This is especially so for places like LA & SF.

This illustrates exactly why 626.9 should be uneforceable under the Due Process doctrine: anybody living in a 'gun-free school zone' is stripped of their right under normal circumstances.

I cannot see anything that states the handgun must remain in the locked case once it enters the vehicle cabin. It states it must remain in the locked case while carrying, not while transporting. Once it enters the vehicle cabin in a locked container, it can be freed to switch to unloaded open carry, which so far seems to be a lawful purpose (where not restricted).

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You're right, you may OC while in your vehicle. However, the transition from concealed & locked to OC could raise a couple issues:

• The brief moment between unlocking and opening the case represents a violation of 12025. During this very brief moment, the firearm is still concealed, yet the case is unlocked. It's a very thin hair to split, but I wouldn't put it past a LEO or DA to press the issue.
• The brief moment while the firearm is in your hand as you remove it from the case to holster it... While it is not illegal to have a firearm in your hand, some LEOs & DAs may try to misconstrue the definition of 'brandishing.'

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

• The brief moment while the firearm is in your hand as you remove it from the case to holster it... While it is not illegal to have a firearm in your hand, some LEOs & DAs may try to misconstrue the definition of 'brandishing.'

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Brandishing requires a "victim" and as it is a misdemeanor must be committed in the presence of that "victim". Even when it is done and reported I've never heard of it turning into a warrant. The county DA's avoid misdemeanors quite regularly as the felony dockets are quite full.


[*]

The brief moment between unlocking and opening the case represents a violation of 12025. During this very brief moment, the firearm is still concealed, yet the case is unlocked. It's a very thin hair to split, but I wouldn't put it past a LEO or DA to press the issue.

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This is a ridiculous level to go to be compliant but it shows our efforts as the law abiding persons we areto comply with these stupid laws. So:

*carry the firearm to the vehicle in a locked case and place it in the trunk while stillon your private property

*unlock and open the case while it is in the open trunk and place it unconcealed on the trunk floor and close the trunk

*drive off of private property and out of 1000 school zone, park, open trunk (pistol is now instantly not concealed but in plain view) and place it in your holster nextto the audio recorder (standard equipment for OCers)and continue on the journey.

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cato wrote:[*]

This is a ridiculous level to go to be compliant but it shows our efforts as the law abiding persons we areto comply with these stupid laws. So:

*carry the firearm to the vehicle in a locked case and place it in the trunk while stillon your private property

*unlock and open the case while it is in the open trunk and place it unconcealed on the trunk floor and close the trunk

*drive off of private property and out of 1000 school zone, park, open trunk (pistol is now instantly not concealed but in plain view) and place it in your holster nextto the audio recorder (standard equipment for OCers)and continue on the journey.

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I agree it's ridiculous. If it weren't LA, I wouldn't be so cautious. Maybe I've got an exaggerated impression of how LEOs respond there...

In fact, what you describe is exactly what I've done in the past in Turlock.

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If you want to talk about ridiculous I have a little idea to tell you about called the collective rights interpretation of the 2nd amendment...

The trunk transfer method works I believe, but I realized that 12026 et. al only say it needs to be fully enclosed, it does not say anything about opaqueness of the container. It seems reasonable to say that a locking clear plexiglass case satisfies 626.9 transport (which points to 12026 for locking container definition) and allows for the case to be unlocked 1000' away without the firearm becoming concealed!



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Locked up my open carry firearm this evening and drove over 1000' feet away from my neighboring grade school. My friend with Thomson West Findlaw access called me up regarding the various open-carry statutes and invited me over for research. Switched to open carry and drove to my favorite pizza place. Customer sitting at counter saw me walk in but did not give any reaction. Paid for my pizza and got a fountain drink.


Drove to my friend's condo complex. Looked up caselaw on PC417 (brandishing) and saw that the majority of cases listed brandishing as an additional lesser offense. He pointed out two things I thought were humorous:

1) The victim of brandishing does not have to actually see the firearm for someone to be charged with brandishing; it can be an implied offense. The example was a boyfriend who pulled out and shot his girlfriend after she turned around.

2) If someone brandishes a gun in the presence of multiple people, the person can only be prosecuted for a single act of brandishing. Each person does not count as a separate offense.


Left my friend's place and stopped by the donut shop. Stood at the window outside and got a fresh sprinkle donut and a decaf coffee. Drove towards home and locked up my firearm before I got within 1000' of my neighboring grade school. Got home safe.
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I really need to go out and pick up a pocket audio recorder before I do more of this. My friend also suggested getting some opinion letters from the local DA and State AG. He has offered to help me draft some and I will be sure to share if we get anything.

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

...stopped by the donut shop. Stood at the window outside and got a fresh sprinkle donut...

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Careful, that's pretty close to impersonating an officer.

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

I really need to go out and pick up a pocket audio recorder before I do more of this.

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Yes, your audio recorder will likely be the only evidence you'll get if the cops do decide to harass, opress, or kill you. Otherwise, it's their word against yours (unless you're dead). CYA.

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You might be a bit more cautious about the 1000' part than just relying on your odometer. The way I read it, it sure sounds like a 1000' radius around the school property, not 1000' driving distance along the road.

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kparker wrote:

You might be a bit more cautious about the 1000' part than just relying on your odometer. The way I read it, it sure sounds like a 1000' radius around the school property, not 1000' driving distance along the road.

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Yes. It is 1000 feet from the edge of the school grounds. But I wouldnt expect a police officer to drag out a 1000 foot measuring tape to check. I believe the only way to be absolutely certain of your proximity to a schoolyard is to have a GPS and mark it either on the street or on a streetmap.

One thing to keep in mind about this law is that it relies on what a reasonable person should know,... not a finite chalk outline of a 1000 foot radius of the school, which everyone must adhere to or face strafing machine gun fire ALA Steve McQueen in"The Great Escape".

Id say it would be better to not demonstrate constructive knowledge of the proximity of schools by having maps of 'off limits' locations in your possession while OC'ing. In some cases, particularly with charter schools, it is impossible to know where a 'school' is located, or just how far or close you are to such an institution. They arent marked and rise and fallunpredictably.

Certainly, remaining silent would be benefical should an officers line of questioning broaches the topic of school proximity. I thinkI wouldbe suspicious of questions relating to my completed route of travel or where I planned on going in particular.

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Heh, I was expecting either the "impersonating a police officer" comment or the "are you trying to run into a police officer?" response! Hands down though, fresh donuts at 1am have forever spoiled me from eating regular cold donuts.

I have taken the 1000 feet statute literally, and have roughly estimated online the 1000 feet radius from the edge of a schoolground (not the center) for the schools in my area which I know are active. I actually do not open carry until I'm further outside the radius for an extra comfort zone.


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Got my new donhume black pancake thumbreak beltloop holster and speed loader case in the mail today! Also picked up a pocket digital recorder on my late lunch break in anticipation of further open carry.

One of my friends called me at work and suggested we try a new frozen yogurt place he found after work. I tried to get of work on time but there were some last minute issues that warranted a quick look before hand-off.

Got home quickly equipped my holster and speed loader holder, locked up my firearm for carry and rushed out of the house. Didn't get to see how well the holster worked but I had been test fitting and bending it all day at work.

Left my firearm in my case as my friend also lives near a school. Jumped in his car and went to pick up his girlfriend. Switched to open carry and found that the donhume rode farther back, requiring a slight turn to the left to keep it from being concealed by the seatbelt. Not sure if it's a good idea to use it while I'm driving myself.

Reached the yogurt place and made it just before 8:30pm closing time to order three frozen yogurts. Sat on a bench outside and ate our yogurts. About 5 or so people passed by at various times but took no obvious notice. My friend was hungry so he suggested we go across the street to the fast-food mexican place to order some burritos. We piled in the car and drove across the street, having to go in a circle once because the street was so busy.

Now I'll admit, I was a bit apprehensive to open carry inside of the restaurant as it is a good sized chain in the region (owned by another very large fast-food company) and frankly, was packed. Considered locking up but decided to find get some guts and went inside.

Waited in line and ordered without any incident. Then my friend decided instead of taking out we would dine in. I did not feel 100% comfortable due to how crowded it was and the table placed me with my back to a high-traffic area, but I kept my firearm retained tight and the chair back offered considerable protection.

My friend finally noticed something shiny on my hip and asked me what it was. Explained to him and his girlfriend the concept of open carry. Once I responded to his question of how law enforcement can determine whether it's loaded or not with a brief explanation of the clause of PC 12031, they felt comfortable in my knowledge of the law. To my surprise, his girlfriend said, "Oh! I feel safer now." That made me feel great about what I was doing and warmed my spirit.

Left the restaurant without incident and went to his house to play videogames. Kept my firearm in a locked container once in proximity of his house and kept it that way until I reached home.
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I hope I'm not boring you guys with too much detail on my open carry experiences. Should I keep it more general and brief or is this good?

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

I hope I'm not boring you guys with too much detail on my open carry experiences. Should I keep it more general and brief or is this good?

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Thumbs up. I would keep in mind that this is a public forum that is known to be read by law enforcement so I generally treat what I write here as a conversation between me and the general public- and not just a trusted circle of friends.

So far, your level of detail is appropriate in my opinion.

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ConditionThree wrote:

FreshTapCoke wrote:

I hope I'm not boring you guys with too much detail on my open carry experiences. Should I keep it more general and brief or is this good?

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Thumbs up. I would keep in mind that this is a public forum that is known to be read by law enforcement so I generally treat what I write here as a conversation between me and the general public- and not just a trusted circle of friends.

So far, your level of detail is appropriate in my opinion.

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Ditto.

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Thank you, both of you guys.


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Left the house this evening after getting home from work. Drove out of the immediate school zone and started open carrying. Went to my friend's auto repair place. Turned out a large group of my friends were there so we sat around waiting for closing time and decided to all go eat dinner together.

Went to go eat at a burger restaurant chain. They have an actual bar there, and not knowing if there were any additional restrictions such as the one in SF for bars, I decided to leave my firearm at my friends place. Also took some time to explain the intricacies of unloaded open carry in California. The majority of my friends are supportive but one thinks it is unnecessary.

Came back from dinner and decided to go get some gloves for kayaking tomorrow. My friend offered to drive so we went out to the hardware store. Open carried for the ride over and through the store. Spent a good 45 minutes in the store but it was pretty empty as it was close to closing time. Paid for my gloves at the cashier. The counter was low but neither the other customers in line, the cashier, or the security guard at the door paid any notice.

Left and my friend kindly agreed to take me to the 24 hour drug store. The store was moderately busy with a security guard at the door. Walked around and looked for blister relief pads. Interacted with two store employees while looking for the pads and sunscreen. Walked around some more as my friend shopped for ice cream. An old employee of his was the cashier; paid for our goods and chit-chatted for a little bit.

Drove back to my friends place and enjoyed some berry rainbow sherbert while listening to how weird my voice sounded on the pocket digital recorder. Locked up my firearm and went home.
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It's starting to feel a slight bit more natural now; I think being with my friend while shopping was much more comfortable. I'm actually starting to feel a bit naked when I'm not open carrying at night.

Right about now I really wish ConditionThree or CA_Libertarian lived in my neighborhood, but in another way, I'm glad we all live in separte regions of the state.

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FreshTapCoke wrote:

Right about now I really wish ConditionThree or CA_Libertarian lived in my neighborhood, but in another way, I'm glad we all live in separte regions of the state.

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I know what you mean. It's too bad activists are few and far between here in CA. It would be nice to have OC groups. There's safety in numbers - more witnesses againsts the response we can expect from most of our thugs-with-badges departments. (Not to say all LEOs are thugs, but a lot of them.)