massltca
Regular Member
imported post
Demarest wrote:
Demarest wrote:
Exactly the Nazis where just doing their jobs too.
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Nerves
- Thread starter openryan
- Start date
cloudcroft
Campaign Veteran
imported post
So give the Nazis a break and apologize for the Nuremberg Trials. Try NOT folowing orders back then and see what would have happened to them. You can't blame them for looking to their own survival. And as for "the law," nothing they did back thenwas illegal according to German law (so much for those who blindly folow "the law" HERE in America, including any lazy/ignorant/liberal so-caled gun owners).
So, the fact remains: Subordinates (soldiers, cops, whoever) either follow order or they do not.
Which is it?
Stop all the intellectual-analysis whining BS...it's just that simple: Either they do follow orders or they do not.
-- John D.
So give the Nazis a break and apologize for the Nuremberg Trials. Try NOT folowing orders back then and see what would have happened to them. You can't blame them for looking to their own survival. And as for "the law," nothing they did back thenwas illegal according to German law (so much for those who blindly folow "the law" HERE in America, including any lazy/ignorant/liberal so-caled gun owners).
So, the fact remains: Subordinates (soldiers, cops, whoever) either follow order or they do not.
Which is it?
Stop all the intellectual-analysis whining BS...it's just that simple: Either they do follow orders or they do not.
-- John D.
massltca
Regular Member
imported post
So we shouldn't blame the cops that come to confiscate our guns either? Come on. Even though what the Nazis did may not have been illegal it was still wrong.
So we shouldn't blame the cops that come to confiscate our guns either? Come on. Even though what the Nazis did may not have been illegal it was still wrong.
cloudcroft
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Get out of the box...expand your mind.
I'm making a point about "law" not morality...that's another topic.
The law is the law...and lots of gun owners want to obey the law for fear of becoming outlaws (the wusses most gun owners are)...good laws and bad laws it doesn't matter, they want to obey regardless.Sowhy should thecops and National Guard guys coming to get your stuff be any different?
Being a slave to "the law" is stupid, but most peopleARE and few have the character, integrity or guts to buck the system.
As for orders, you can't have soldiers/cops questioning orders...they either obey them or not. They shouldn't be punished for obeying orders no matter what. Get the guy who GAVE the the "immoral" ordersif you want,but not the guys who obeyed them. That's crap.
Yes, "obeying orders" is an excellent defense for solders...if not, reorganize the military completely and the UCMJ while you're at it.
Until then, give the guys a break.
-- John D.
Get out of the box...expand your mind.
I'm making a point about "law" not morality...that's another topic.
The law is the law...and lots of gun owners want to obey the law for fear of becoming outlaws (the wusses most gun owners are)...good laws and bad laws it doesn't matter, they want to obey regardless.Sowhy should thecops and National Guard guys coming to get your stuff be any different?
Being a slave to "the law" is stupid, but most peopleARE and few have the character, integrity or guts to buck the system.
As for orders, you can't have soldiers/cops questioning orders...they either obey them or not. They shouldn't be punished for obeying orders no matter what. Get the guy who GAVE the the "immoral" ordersif you want,but not the guys who obeyed them. That's crap.
Yes, "obeying orders" is an excellent defense for solders...if not, reorganize the military completely and the UCMJ while you're at it.
Until then, give the guys a break.
-- John D.
massltca
Regular Member
imported post
cloudcroft wrote:
cloudcroft wrote:
Well I disagree, if cops come door to door taking weapons then they are criminals and will be treated as such. Police and soldiers need to questions orders they know are clearly illegal. In the case of soldiers they have a duty to refuse illegal orders. Police/soldiers are sworn to uphold the law, but morality plays an important part. Say it was legal to kick down doors and search peoples houses at will without warrents. After all its the law. Would you want the police running around doing that, even though its clearly wrong morally. The best solution would be to not let the bad laws get passed in the first place, but we live in an imperfect world.
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
"When one enlists in the United States Military, active duty or reserve, they take the following oath: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
Found the above ant thought it fit here. Notice that the part about obeying "the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me" follows the first two components at is separated from them by a semicolon. Also, the obeying of the president and of higher ranking officers is to be according to the regulations of teh Uniform Code of Military Justice. Who would bet that there may be something in this code that prohibits carrying out illegal orders? Also, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and take precidence over all else. Therefore, what occurred during Katrina, was not only illegal, but one could press the case that it was treasonous.
"When one enlists in the United States Military, active duty or reserve, they take the following oath: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
Found the above ant thought it fit here. Notice that the part about obeying "the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me" follows the first two components at is separated from them by a semicolon. Also, the obeying of the president and of higher ranking officers is to be according to the regulations of teh Uniform Code of Military Justice. Who would bet that there may be something in this code that prohibits carrying out illegal orders? Also, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and take precidence over all else. Therefore, what occurred during Katrina, was not only illegal, but one could press the case that it was treasonous.
medicff0879
Regular Member
imported post
How Ironic that Texas (of all other states) would not be an open carry state!! We were one of, if not the last state, to make it illegal to have open beverage containers in your car while driving.Yet atthe same time ourstate is the only one that was an independent Republic of its own and we can not OC. You would figure thatthe morons in Legislature would not have forgotten our need to be armed when we kicked the Mexicans asses back across the border!!! Maybe one day?
How Ironic that Texas (of all other states) would not be an open carry state!! We were one of, if not the last state, to make it illegal to have open beverage containers in your car while driving.Yet atthe same time ourstate is the only one that was an independent Republic of its own and we can not OC. You would figure thatthe morons in Legislature would not have forgotten our need to be armed when we kicked the Mexicans asses back across the border!!! Maybe one day?
lordnitrox
Regular Member
imported post
well,since I am not OC'ing *yet* (I can, just want to learn things before i do it)
I am thinking of how everything will work out, and if I will ever run in to the person who yells "he's got a gun!!!" when they see it. Once I feel ready I am going to go shopping with it on, see how it works out.
well,since I am not OC'ing *yet* (I can, just want to learn things before i do it)
I am thinking of how everything will work out, and if I will ever run in to the person who yells "he's got a gun!!!" when they see it. Once I feel ready I am going to go shopping with it on, see how it works out.
Mainsail
Regular Member
imported post
I had a weird situation that I opened a thread about in the WA fourms. After months of absolutely no drama about my OC pistol, a Sig GSR 1911 cocked-&-locked, all of a sudden yesterday I have people hissing “Did you see that!!!” behind me and a coffee guy asking me about it. I went from perfectly comfortable to (slightly) apprehensive in one day.
I had a weird situation that I opened a thread about in the WA fourms. After months of absolutely no drama about my OC pistol, a Sig GSR 1911 cocked-&-locked, all of a sudden yesterday I have people hissing “Did you see that!!!” behind me and a coffee guy asking me about it. I went from perfectly comfortable to (slightly) apprehensive in one day.
sv_libertarian
State Researcher
imported post
After I was stoped and disarmed by local PD after some bozo called the cops while I was reading a book in the park, I was pretty nervous about OC around Olympia for a while, but was quite comfortable elsewhere in the Puget Sound reason with OC. I'm a bit nervous the first time I walk into some stores, but not noticeably so, and am quite polite and friendly. Kinda hard to worry about a guy with a 9mm while he is picking out his favorite brand of earl grey tea
I decided I had force of law on my side, even if those charged with enforcing the law may not always see it that way, and finally decided, if nothing else, I could use the lawsuit money to finance that 45' pilothouse Piver trimaran I've always wanted to build...:lol:
I still am not "relaxed" in the park, as I was the day I was detained, although as far as detain/disarm stops go, I'm not sure it could have gone any "friendlier" so to speak, but damnit, that is a humilitating thing.
The only way to win is to continue to OC. I carry a three page training directive issued by the local PD after my stop which explains in very simple terms with small words that OC is legal. Will see tomorow if I have to bring it out... I figure in many states that casual OC has become a lost art, and that I am simply reviving another useful practice of the past. Besides, that dang decocker/safety switch on my P89 is uncomfortable when I sit while CCing....
So a little apprehensive when OCing, mainly on how the people around me will illogically react, but only in places where I have been jacked up.
Steve
After I was stoped and disarmed by local PD after some bozo called the cops while I was reading a book in the park, I was pretty nervous about OC around Olympia for a while, but was quite comfortable elsewhere in the Puget Sound reason with OC. I'm a bit nervous the first time I walk into some stores, but not noticeably so, and am quite polite and friendly. Kinda hard to worry about a guy with a 9mm while he is picking out his favorite brand of earl grey tea
I decided I had force of law on my side, even if those charged with enforcing the law may not always see it that way, and finally decided, if nothing else, I could use the lawsuit money to finance that 45' pilothouse Piver trimaran I've always wanted to build...:lol:
I still am not "relaxed" in the park, as I was the day I was detained, although as far as detain/disarm stops go, I'm not sure it could have gone any "friendlier" so to speak, but damnit, that is a humilitating thing.
The only way to win is to continue to OC. I carry a three page training directive issued by the local PD after my stop which explains in very simple terms with small words that OC is legal. Will see tomorow if I have to bring it out... I figure in many states that casual OC has become a lost art, and that I am simply reviving another useful practice of the past. Besides, that dang decocker/safety switch on my P89 is uncomfortable when I sit while CCing....
So a little apprehensive when OCing, mainly on how the people around me will illogically react, but only in places where I have been jacked up.
Steve