Gun laws cops should know

LEO 229 · Oct 7, 2007

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Please post ONLY laws thatyou think should be known by the police and taught to law enforcement in the academy.

It has beenmentionedon this boardthat the state legislators should enact a law that cops should know the laws or be held accountable. I am interested in discovering just how many gun laws need to actually be covered.

I feel a simple note to DCJS would be sufficient to boost training in that area but some feel many hours should be spent contacting legislators and trying to get a new law would be better.

I will take the list of laws posted here and quiz some LEOs and let you know how they scored.

:idea:Obviously.... You think it should be known that OC is not prohibited by any Virginialaw.

Citizen · Oct 7, 2007

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Just the basics.

Pre-emption of local ordinances: 15.2-915

Open Carry Legal: VA Constitution ArticleI Section XIII.

CHP: 18.2-308

No CCW in restaurant that serves alcohol: 18.2-308.J.3

The rest is going to be case law.

Thepoints in the article in Police Chief Magazine:http://tinyurl.com/23zmos

TrueBrit · Oct 7, 2007

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Short answer;

OC is 100% legal in VA, complete state pre-emption. Also, all despatchers to be aquainted with the excellent advice that you gave in another thread,ie unless compelling reasons render a situation extraordinary, no cops need bother a person OCing.

Easy enough!

One ASSUMES that they are up to speed with CC?

TrueBrit.

soloban · Oct 7, 2007

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I'd focus on Preemeption and no CCW in resturant / club that serves alcohol.

(Emphasis Added)

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

Prior to ammendment in 2004 (HB 530) city ordinances enacted prior to 1 Jan 1987 which preempted the current law could still be enforced. I've found pre 2004 versions of the statue floating around the web. The above text comes straight from the VA Legislative Information System.

2004 HB 530: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?041+sum+HB530

VA Statute 15.2-915: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915

Numerous bills have been introduced which would allow cities to preempt state gun law in local libraries, none have made it out of committee

mobeewan · Oct 7, 2007

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15.2-915 Preemption
15.2-915.2 Regulation of transportation of a loaded rifle or shotgun
15.2-915.3 NO fingerprinting for CHP renewal
15.2-1209.1 carrying of loaded firearms on public highways
18.2-53.1 Use or display of firearm in committing felony
18.2-282 Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm
18.2-283 dangerous weapons in church-(good and suffieient reason I.E. personal protection)
18.2-283.1 Carrying weapon into courthouse
18.2-287.01 Firearms in airports
18.2-287.4 Loaded firearms in public
18.2-308 Concealed Handgun Permits
18.2-308.1 school property prohibited-Elementary thru High school, not colleges and universities
18.2-308.3 Restricted ammunition-Don't get nitpicky about type of ammo it is only illegal if used illegally
02-082.pdf (application/pdf Object)-It is not obstruction of justice if a person refuses to identify theirself when questioned by the police

Tomahawk · Oct 7, 2007

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Rather than try to teach a phonebook full of laws, just teach them some restraint unless they are witnessing a crime against persons or property in progress.

For instance: you see a guy carrying a holstered pistol. Gee, is that legal? Well, let's look it up or call somebody and find out. In the meantime, he's not hurting anyone, so let's just keep an eye on him until we find out for sure.

This goes for any out-of-the-ordinary situation, not just firearms. I don't have any unrealistic notion that cops can memorize all the laws any more than I can. Since there are so many laws out there, the default mode for a police officer should be to chill out and gather info before stopping someone.

In this age of radios and cellphones and text messaging, there should be a simple way for an officer to find out the relevant code for odd situations.

The real problem is that in places like Norfolk or Manassas the police seem to be trained or conditioned to overreact first, regardless of the law. The default overkill setting has to go away, and training should focus on that more than memorizing any particular laws.

soloban · Oct 7, 2007

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I'm confused about 18.2-287.4

Tell me if I'm reading this correctly...

Its ok to open carry a loaded pistol in the cities listed as long as the magazine holds less than 20 rounds?

vrwmiller · Oct 7, 2007

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soloban wrote:

I'm confused about 18.2-287.4

Tell me if I'm reading this correctly...

Its ok to open carry a loaded pistol in the cities listed as long as the magazine holds less than 20 rounds?

If one does not meet the requirements of one of the exemptions, yes. If one meets the requirements of one of the exemptions, then they are not limited by this code section.

roscoe13 · Oct 7, 2007

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soloban wrote:

I'm confused about 18.2-287.4

Tell me if I'm reading this correctly...

Its ok to open carry a loaded pistol in the cities listed as long as the magazine holds less than 20 rounds?

That's certainly the way it reads to me, unless, of course, it's designed to accept a sliencer...

Thundar · Oct 7, 2007

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State Code:

15.2-915

15.2- 915.2

15.2- 1209.1

15.2- 915.4

16.1- 246

18.2- 108.1

18.2- 279

18.2- 280

18.2- 282

18.2- 283

18.2- 285

18.2- 286

18.2- 286.1

18.2- 287.1

18.2- 303.1

18.2- 308 All sub sections

18.2- 309

18.2- 311.1

44-146.15

LEO 229 · Oct 7, 2007

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soloban wrote:

I'm confused about 18.2-287.4

Tell me if I'm reading this correctly...

Its ok to open carry a loaded pistol in the cities listed as long as the magazine holds less than 20 rounds?

Not exactly. This law does not "on the flip side" make it "OK" to carry in those cities.

It only identifies that those who violate the provisions of this code will be in violation.
There is no Virginia law that actually allows the "open carry" of a firearm. This code does not mean you can "open carry"... it only identifies that those who do "carry" have limits.

on

any public street
road
alley
sidewalk
public right-of-way

or in

any public park
any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The locations identified are high population areas.

magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition
designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer
equipped with a folding stock
shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds

Exempt from the law are....

law-enforcement officers
licensed security guards
military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties
any person having a valid concealed handgun permit
any person actually engaged in lawful hunting
any person engaged in lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest

Thundar · Oct 7, 2007

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I have posted what I think is the body of releant Virginia law. I applaud the effort of LEO 229, but do not think that it will fix the problem. It is a step in the right direction, but only a step.

I was once told that the hardest thing to change in the military is the mindset of the soldier.

What OCDO is trying to do is change the mindset of citizens, including LEOs. This will not be easy. There will not be any magic solutions. Remain committed to the cause.Insist that your rights be respected, but be polite in doing so.

Just wondering LEO 229: Why limit what is to be taught tolaw? Are Attorney General opinions not used for training?

LEO 229 · Oct 7, 2007

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Thundar wrote:

I have posted what I think is the body of releant Virginia law. I applaud the effort of LEO 229, but do not think that it will fix the problem. It is a step in the right direction, but only a step.

I was once told that the hardest thing to change in the military is the mindset of the soldier.

What OCDO is trying to do is change the mindset of citizens, including LEOs. This will not be easy. There will not be any magic solutions. Remain committed to the cause.Insist that your rights be respected, but be polite in doing so.

Just wondering LEO 229: Why limit what is to be taught tolaw? Are Attorney General opinions not used for training?

One step at at time.....

soloban · Oct 7, 2007

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Thanks for the replies,

I understand the whole "Open Carry is legal because no law prohibits it" thing. I didn't mean to imply the statue gave you the right to do so because of a small-cap magazine.

I hear all the time stories on the board about people carrying in those large cities and I assumed that they were complying with the statue because they were under 20 rds. Typically handguns carry at most 15 rounds (Glock 17, Beretta 92FS) unless equipped with a very long magazine.

It seems this statue is really just an attempt at pacifying the anti-gun crowd or giving an additional charge to throw at a criminal for commiting a crime with a folding stock AK-47, SKS, etc...

ijusam · Oct 7, 2007

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I think a big problem is the LEOs are enforcing “laws” that they don’t know are actually law. Without question, there are too many laws for any normal person to know completely, but, it is reasonable for LEOs to completely know the laws that require immediate action on their part.

In the absence of such situation (requiring immediate action) they should verify the law exists and that the law says what they think it does. This could be done with an onboard computer, PDA or even a police “Hotline” to prevent mistakes. Crimes with immediate action required ie. Assaults, robberies, ect. Should be committed to memory. LEOs will easily remember crimes and actions encountered every day (speeding, running red lights, drunk drivers, ect)

A second problem is local lawmakers. They need to be informed of the pre-emption statutes and the illegality of making laws that are in violation of any state law. They should be held accountable for local laws that are in violation of state laws. Laws in violation of state laws should be repealed and removed within 90 days. Out-dated and useless laws should be removed from the books in a reasonable (and specified) amount of time. Passing an illegal law should get them personally named in lawsuits arising therefrom.

And the biggest problem is addressed with: The Read the Bills Act[/b]. (I can’t imagine a plausible reason to oppose this act)

All opinions expressed are my opinions. YMMV,

sjhipple · Oct 8, 2007

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I think it would be good to teach a little case history regarding what Terry Stop is, when it's legal and, most importantly, when it's NOT legal (e.g., it's illegal to detain a person to make sure they're not a felon).

VAopencarry · Oct 8, 2007

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I think they just need to know OC is legal and carrying a firearm is not grounds(RS) to stop, hold at gun point,ID, detain, run serial #, etc.

Question 229, We often hear the 'officer safety' card played, if officer safety is really such a big concern and guns seem to be the biggest threat to said safety, then why are police not trained better in gun laws? I am thinking, knowing gun laws would be near the top of things to learn since guns are a major factor in 'officer safety'? thoughts?

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2007

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VAopencarry wrote:

I think they just need to know OC is legal and carrying a firearm is not grounds(RS) to stop, hold at gun point,ID, detain, run serial #, etc.

Question 229, We often hear the 'officer safety' card played, if officer safety is really such a big concern and guns seem to be the biggest threat to said safety, then why are police not trained better in gun laws? I am thinking, knowing gun laws would be near the top of things to learn since guns are a major factor in 'officer safety'? thoughts?

I cannot say what gun laws are taught. The LEO has a tough job since he is expected to know all the lawsand does not.

He is instructed onwhat is important and what he is likely to encounter. He istaughtthe use of force continuum and then sent out into the world to do his best.

When you approach a person that is armed.... you go one up.

In using the continuum....

Man has a knife in his hand.. you draw your gun.
Man has a gun nearby... you draw your gun.
Man is pointing a gun in your direction... you shoot.

So as I posted in other threads..aLEO drawing his gun was acceptable in the force continuum. The problem is that the officer either perceived OC as a threat or.... did not know OC wasn't against the law.

Thundar · Oct 8, 2007

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Lawful discharge laws vary by city or county. A quick search on municode.com of firearms and dischargein a few VA cities convinced me that it wouldbe a very tedious chore to correctly identify discharge laws for each locality in VA. :banghead:Might I suggest language to the effect of "local laws prescibing lawful discharge.":idea:

ilbob · Oct 8, 2007

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start with the constitution of the US and that of VA. that would go a long way.

Gun laws cops should know

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