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Thread: Man killed during argument at gas station - Puyallup

  1. #1
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Every time there is another one of these idiots out there that does something like this, it hurts our fight against gun control. If anything, it should demonstrate that controls like permits and all that (this guy had a CPL) don't do any good, but the antis will take this and say we need more control because obviously what we have isn't enough.....and unfortunately more people will probably agree with them than us.....

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    http://www.komotv.com/news/local/10313532.html

    PUYALLUP, Wash. -- A 21-year-old man has been arrested for allegedly shooting another man to death at a gas station here Sunday night.

    Police spokeswoman Lorri Ericson said the two men were in an argument at a Shell Station at 502 37th Avenue southeast when one man shot the other.

    Medics arrived just after 9 p.m. and took the wounded man to Tacoma General Hospital where he later died. His name has not been released.

    Ericson said the Roy man who fired the gun had a valid concealed weapons permit and was booked into the Pierce County Jail while detectives investigate the shooting.

    It was not known what prompted the argument, but Ericson said both men knew each other.

  2. #2
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Who knows, it may be a case of self-defense. Admittedly, since they were "arguing", that's going to be very hard to defend. The guy with the CPL and gun should have walked away and been the better man. But, if he was physically attacked during the argument, he certainly has the right to defend himself. I'd love to see the security camera footage from the gas station, since 99% of them have cameras to catch people stealing gas. I'm sure that would be pretty definite to see if it was a case of "drawing the gun in anger" or "drawing the gun in fear."
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    Every time there is another one of these idiots out there that does something like this, it hurts our fight against gun control.
    Does something like what? Defend his life against a possible lethal threat? How do you know based on this anti-firearm-owning rag's article that it wasn't a justifiable shoot?

    *IF* it turns out to be a bad shoot, then we should nail this individual to the wall. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a "news"paper ever get things right...

  4. #4
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Rather than jump on the bandwagon and condemning this guy wouldn't it make more sense to wait for the official word. I would assume that none of us were there.

    I agree that should this have been a wrong shoot the party should be prosecuted to the fullest.

    I'd be willing to wager that the decision to arrest was based on a quick view of the security tapes though. Beyond that I'll wait for the official report.


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    I would not assume that the decision to temporarily arrest was based on the tapes. If the guy did not flee the scene that is probably a pretty good indication he doesn't think he committed a crime...

    I know if I had committed a murderI would run and run until I could run no more... At least, it seems to me that would be the most logical thing to do if facing a VERY long time in prison!

    The police, of course, know this. Unless they are very sure it is self-defense and somehow very assured the guy will not run out of the country or go into hiding... it seems to be logical that they would arrest, investigate, then charge or release.

    Unless the self-defense is super clear (to the cops on scene) I would fully expect to be arrested temporarily after using my weapon.

    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.

  6. #6
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    You know what, you're right....I jumped the gun here in deciding before all the evidence was out that this guy did something wrong. Totally my bad, and I apologize. I somehow doubt that we will hear much more on this though......

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    You know what, you're right....I jumped the gun here in deciding before all the evidence was out that this guy did something wrong. Totally my bad, and I apologize. I somehow doubt that we will hear much more on this though......
    If it turns out to be a good shoot, you are more than likely correct that we will never hear about it in the "news" media. However, if it turns out to be a bad shoot, then I bet we will hear much more.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    joshmmm wrote:
    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.
    But, fortunately,we do have HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



    This postulate allows ample critical analysis of the event, even with the meager amount of details provided by the media so far...


  9. #9
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    joshmmm wrote:
    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.
    But, fortunately,we do have HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



    This postulate allows ample critical analysis of the event, even with the meager amount of details provided by the media so far...
    Of course unless he is twice your size and has the ability to "squeeze you like an orange".:what:
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  10. #10
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    amlevin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    joshmmm wrote:
    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.
    But, fortunately,we do have HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



    This postulate allows ample critical analysis of the event, even with the meager amount of details provided by the media so far...
    Of course unless he is twice your size and has the ability to "squeeze you like an orange".:what:
    Actually, there are no known or substantiated exceptions to HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense. Sorry.

  11. #11
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    OK, then you stand there while "Hulk Hogan Jr." squeezes your head like a grape and I won't do a thing while you vainly try to fight him off, cause I know you'd want it that way. Meanwhile, after he's done and throws you away, I'll put the person down when they come after me cause I know there's NO way I'll win against him in a fair fight......that's what we call justifiable self defense. There was a distinctive advantage to the other person and they were intent on causing grave bodily harm to myself or others. Whether they were "armed" or not.....

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    joshmmm wrote:
    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.
    But, fortunately,we do have HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



    This postulate allows ample critical analysis of the event, even with the meager amount of details provided by the media so far...
    Of course unless he is twice your size and has the ability to "squeeze you like an orange".:what:
    Actually, there are no known or substantiated exceptions to HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense. Sorry.
    Sorry, I have never heard of either you or your postulate? Could you advise those present where and when you were published? Which courses use your material in their curriculum? Can you also explain why your answer to my post is indirect contradiction to both written and case law? (disparity of force is a well founded affirmative defense).


    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  13. #13
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    OK, then you stand there while "Hulk Hogan Jr." squeezes your head like a grape and I won't do a thing while you vainly try to fight him off, cause I know you'd want it that way....
    No way it could happen. Hulk Hogan Jr. is a punk who drives really fast cars (his father's) really fast. Even when he shouldn't. Last I heard he flipped a really boss Supra and totalled it.Jr. got a few scratches but come out of it OK. Not so forhis 22-year old buddy who was in the Supra with him. The buddy ain't woke up since the "ND"--might not ever wake up.

    Nah, Hogan Jr. is a punk. He don't scare me none. As long as he is on foot that is...

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    HankT wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    joshmmm wrote:
    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.
    But, fortunately,we do have HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



    This postulate allows ample critical analysis of the event, even with the meager amount of details provided by the media so far...
    Of course unless he is twice your size and has the ability to "squeeze you like an orange".:what:
    Actually, there are no known or substantiated exceptions to HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense. Sorry.
    In fact, the most recently publicized story was an apparently homeless guy with a 357 that shot a crazy guy who was beating him up. He was realeased within hours. The attacker had no weapon. Ruled justifiable.

    While HankT stands there getting beaten up/killed or watches a violent rapist commit a crime the rest of us can protect ourselves/others whenever using a weapon is our only choice... whether the perp is armed or not is only one factor that should be considered.

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    Better to wait for more info. The article did not say whether the man that was shot was/was not armed. I guess HankT missed that point .

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    I have no idea whether the dead guy was armed or not but from the tone of the article I would assume that he wasn't. Either way there is a large chance that if you shoot someone who is unarmed you are going to have more problems than if he is armed, justified or not. If you shoot an unarmed 10 year old you better get your story together ina hurry even if he was beating you in the head with a baseball bat. Of course you are going totell the sympathetic jurythat he was armed with a baseball bat and youwere in fear of your life and everything will be fine.:P

  17. #17
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    amlevin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    joshmmm wrote:
    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.
    But, fortunately,we do have HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



    This postulate allows ample critical analysis of the event, even with the meager amount of details provided by the media so far...
    Of course unless he is twice your size and has the ability to "squeeze you like an orange".:what:
    Actually, there are no known or substantiated exceptions to HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense. Sorry.
    Sorry, I have never heard of either you or your postulate? Could you advise those present where and when you were published? Which courses use your material in their curriculum? Can you also explain why your answer to my post is indirect contradiction to both written and case law? (disparity of force is a well founded affirmative defense).
    Well, which editorial boards of which journals in which fields might you be on, sir?
    My postulate has never been shown inappropriate or wrong. Good luck to you if you wish to try to debunk it. I welcome the challenge--even from someone who is not very well read as yourself.



    casullshooter wrote:
    Better to wait for more info. The article did not say whether the man that was shot was/was not armed. I guess HankT missed that point .
    Oh, please.

    And there isn't just one article...

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    joshmmm wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    joshmmm wrote:
    Of course I am not offering any opinion here on whether this was a lawful self-defense or murder--we have NO facts whatsoever.
    But, fortunately,we do have HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



    This postulate allows ample critical analysis of the event, even with the meager amount of details provided by the media so far...
    Of course unless he is twice your size and has the ability to "squeeze you like an orange".:what:
    Actually, there are no known or substantiated exceptions to HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense. Sorry.
    In fact, the most recently publicized story was an apparently homeless guy with a 357 that shot a crazy guy who was beating him up. He was realeased within hours. The attacker had no weapon. Ruled justifiable.

    While HankT stands there getting beaten up/killed or watches a violent rapist commit a crime the rest of us can protect ourselves/others whenever using a weapon is our only choice... whether the perp is armed or not is only one factor that should be considered.
    To add to this, there was an incident several years back in Marysville where a guy, about 150lbs, was being drug out of his car window by a rather large guy, 250+lbs. The little guy shot and killed the big guy and it was ruled justifiable.

    There are exeptions to Hanks nonsense, he just chooses not to listen. Right Hank?:P
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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  19. #19
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Actually, I think that most, not all,people have some difficulty in reading HankT's Postualate of Civilian Self-Defense....

    For example, it doesn't say that a 145 lb. man shouldn't shoot a 325 lb. unarmed but crazed professional wrestler who is attacking him with discernible intent to cause death or severe bodily harm....

    It just says that... well, here it is again:

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

    Hmm, nowhere in there does this simple but powerful conceptualization does it say that a 145 lb. man shouldn't shoot a 325 lb. unarmed but crazed professional wrestler who is attacking him....

    I blame our educational system. It has failed us in so many ways...

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    HankT wrote:
    Actually, I think that most, not all,people have some difficulty in reading HankT's Postualate of Civilian Self-Defense....

    For example, it doesn't say that a 145 lb. man shouldn't shoot a 325 lb. unarmed but crazed professional wrestler who is attacking him with discernible intent to cause death or severe bodily harm....

    It just says that... well, here it is again:

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

    Hmm, nowhere in there does this simple but powerful conceptualization does it say that a 145 lb. man shouldn't shoot a 325 lb. unarmed but crazed professional wrestler who is attacking him....

    I blame our educational system. It has failed us in so many ways...
    Hank,

    I can only presume that you are actually nuts... how is that bad strategy? I think shooting a 325lb crazed wrestler who is intent on killing me to be the only strategy that might save my life...

    Thus, shooting an umarmed person is the BEST, not a bad, strategy.

    Your postulate was just debunked.





    Postulates can be one of two things. 1. A claim which is always true and can't be false. 2. A place where you start from to continue a hypothetical because it is not an absolute, but a starting place...

    Merriam Webster defines postulate as:

    to assume or claim as true, existent, or necessary : depend upon or start from the postulate of b : to assume as a postulate or axiom (as in logic or mathematics)


  21. #21
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    joshmmm wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Actually, I think that most, not all,people have some difficulty in reading HankT's Postualate of Civilian Self-Defense....

    For example, it doesn't say that a 145 lb. man shouldn't shoot a 325 lb. unarmed but crazed professional wrestler who is attacking him with discernible intent to cause death or severe bodily harm....

    It just says that... well, here it is again:

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

    Hmm, nowhere in there does this simple but powerful conceptualization does it say that a 145 lb. man shouldn't shoot a 325 lb. unarmed but crazed professional wrestler who is attacking him....

    I blame our educational system. It has failed us in so many ways...

    Postulates can be one of two things. 1. A claim which is always true and can't be false. 2. A place where you start from to continue a hypothetical because it is not an absolute, but a starting place...

    Merriam Webster defines postulate as:

    to assume or claim as true, existent, or necessary : depend upon or start from the postulate of b : to assume as a postulate or axiom (as in logic or mathematics)
    Yah, now we're finally making some progress...

    Keep going.

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    That is what you said in Durham , Mr. HankT Nifong.........Condem first, facts later if ever.

  23. #23
    Regular Member thebastidge's Avatar
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    For those who made comments based upon "assumptions" from "the way the article was written":

    Just remember that if it is not stated asa fact, you can't assume it to be the case, and sometimes even then. Journalists have assumptions and biases, conscious and unconscious. Telling the "right story" is more important to many of them than "telling the story right."
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Update. The entire incident was caught on the security camera. The shooter has been released. Reports have been turned over to the Pierce County prosecutor who will decide if any charges will be filed. Here is the latest article.

  25. #25
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    casullshooter wrote:
    That is what you said in Durham , Mr. HankT Nifong.........Condem first, facts later if ever.
    You're being silly. This isn't about Nifong. This isn't even about condemning.

    It's simply a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed man.

    Simple.

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