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Thread: Is the Va Beach Convention Center owned by the city?

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    I was asking because there's a gun show going on this weekend. And if it's public/city property, then I could open carry there with a loaded mag, even though they say they have to tie the guns, correct? Can I still enter if I refuse to check and tie my firearm? Do the gun show promoters have any say on who enters, or does it remain preempted city property regardless of who is occupying it at the time? Just wanted to get some clarification on this.

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    Regular Member Bubba Ron's Avatar
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    The promoters usually require all non-LEO persons to unload and zip-tie your handgun at the Virginia Beach and Norfolk shows.

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    Fortunately, or unfortunately, although you know how to properly behave with a loaded firearm, there are way too many idiots out there. Although a minor infringement on your rights, I view this the same way I view seatbelts - I wear one not because I worry about my driving abilities, but rather the driving abilities, or lack thereof, of others.

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    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    That is a VERY interesting question.

    Generally, a local government cannot revoke your CCW privilege just because it would prefer that you not show up packing.

    However, it would seem that if the City leases "public" space to an organizer for a private event, the organizer should be able to set the dress code. If its my wedding I can require all men to wear a tuxedo (or a Speedo!) - or they don't get to attend.

    The issue of paid admission might make this situation somewhat different than a street festival, or City Hall. The private organizer can't be forced to allow you admission if your conduct violates their insurance policy. The street festival is normally public space 24/7, and City Hall is a place you MUST go if you wish to conduct certain business with the city. As much as it sometimes seems like an imperative that I attend local gun shows, I think the distinction can be drawn.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    They also take away your ammo. They do not know about the BUG in the ankle holster, my nail clippers (to cut the zip tie) or the extra clip in my pocket.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    I have wondered the same thing about the Virginia Beach Amphitheater. The police cannot stop you from carrying if it is public property, but the promoter may have a problem with his insurance if they know you are carrying there. We had a similar discussion regarding the Hampton Convention Center recently. For me, gun shows are one of the places that I carry concealed, even if it means I have to downgrade to my BUG and adjust any potentialtactics accordingly.

    Does anybody know who owns the Amphitheater? The city of Hampton owns the Coliseum and the Convention Center, and can't stop you from carrying there, either OC or CC.

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    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    glocknroll wrote:
    The city of Hampton owns the Coliseum and the Convention Center, and can't stop you from carrying there, either OC or CC.
    That may be true as it pertains to the CITY.

    That is, the CITY cannot post signs forbidding carry. But, can a private lessee who is renting the thing for the day for a fashion show or or a Speedo stretching contest prohibit attendees from entering with firearms?

    I think the answer is yes. The renter can prohibit any sort of conduct, under penalty of the violator being removed as a trespasser.

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    W.E.G. wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    The city of Hampton owns the Coliseum and the Convention Center, and can't stop you from carrying there, either OC or CC.
    That may be true as it pertains to the CITY.

    That is, the CITY cannot post signs forbidding carry. But, can a private lessee who is renting the thing for the day for a fashion show or or a Speedo stretching contest prohibit attendees from entering with firearms?

    I think the answer is yes. The renter can prohibit any sort of conduct, under penalty of the violator being removed as a trespasser.
    Not in Hampton. Public property is still public property, and no matter who is holding a function there, they cannot deny you your rights. If you read the Hampton Convention Center thread, you will find the story of a member who was temporarily denied entrance to a gun show at the Colisuem. The police were called, and they said that it was legal for him to enter the gun show carrying. The promoter then bargained with him, offering him free entry to the show if he would kindly disarm before entering.

    If you rent public property for a function in Hampton, you're renting it from me, the taxpayer. I'll be damned if I'll be denied my rights on my property.

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    I've never been to any gun show where they "take away your ammo".

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    I have always, and will continue to, attempt to compromise. If the promoter's insurance demands that he post "no loaded guns", he should. He has then honored his part of the insurance contract. He can present his show in good conscience, knowing his patrons and vendors are covered by insurance.

    I will continue to carry a J frame, a speedloader or two, and a folding knife in such a manner that nobody knows. A well trained eye maybe, but the not average citizen. Then my conscience can remain clear, because I have taken responsiblilty for my own safety.

    And they lived happily ever after.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    If you rent public property for a function in Hampton, you're renting it from me, the taxpayer. I'll be damned if I'll be denied my rights on my property.
    It depends on the nature of the contractual agreement between the Gov't and the show promoter. If it's a lease, then, for most legal purposes, the promoter owns it during the period of the lease (if you lease a house to someone, it's effectively theirs, you can't just walk in whenever you please).
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    roscoe13 wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    If you rent public property for a function in Hampton, you're renting it from me, the taxpayer. I'll be damned if I'll be denied my rights on my property.
    It depends on the nature of the contractual agreement between the Gov't and the show promoter. If it's a lease, then, for most legal purposes, the promoter owns it during the period of the lease (if you lease a house to someone, it's effectively theirs, you can't just walk in whenever you please).
    The promoter still can't deny you your constitutional rights on public property. Can you cite case law? I haven't attempted to, because my rights are delineated in the Constitution. Promoters put on Bay Days in Hampton, and they can't deny you the right to carry there. They put on Harborfest in Norfolk, and they can't deny you there. Both of these have been put to the test, recently. Both arerun by outside promoters, on public property. Leasing someone a house is a private contract between private parties, and has nothing to do with public property.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    If you rent public property for a function in Hampton, you're renting it from me, the taxpayer. I'll be damned if I'll be denied my rights on my property.
    Weren't you the chap that declined to OC at the Hampton show?

    Something about exercising your right was too aggravating or invonvenient or something...

    Seems simple enough. Just show up and OC. If they don't like it, tough.



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    W.E.G. wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    The city of Hampton owns the Coliseum and the Convention Center, and can't stop you from carrying there, either OC or CC.
    That may be true as it pertains to the CITY.

    That is, the CITY cannot post signs forbidding carry. But, can a private lessee who is renting the thing for the day for a fashion show or or a Speedo stretching contest prohibit attendees from entering with firearms?

    I think the answer is yes. The renter can prohibit any sort of conduct, under penalty of the violator being removed as a trespasser.
    A lessee cannot impose restrictions that are legally unavailable to the lessor.

    We're talking about VA here, but let me offer the equivalent example from TX. Texas Penal Code 30.06 is the section that allows property owners to restrict concealed carry by CHLs, if a sufficient notice is posted ("sufficient notice" being strictly defined in the law). A subsection says that PC 30.06 notices do not apply in any building that is "owned or leased by" a government entity.

    We've seen arguments property operators have the right to post 30.06 notices, even though the property is owned by a government entity. And yet the law is clear: if a property is owned by a government, 30.06 cannot be enforced. The lessee has no rights that are unavailable to the lessor, because the lessor cannot transfer rights he does not have. "Lessor", being a government agency in this case, cannot forbid licensed concealed carry, and sublessees cannot add restrictions unavailable to the lessor.

    Kevin


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    KBCraig wrote:
    A lessee cannot impose restrictions that are legally unavailable to the lessor.

    We're talking about VA here, but let me offer the equivalent example from TX. Texas Penal Code 30.06 is the section that allows property owners to restrict concealed carry by CHLs, if a sufficient notice is posted ("sufficient notice" being strictly defined in the law). A subsection says that PC 30.06 notices do not apply in any building that is "owned or leased by" a government entity.

    We've seen arguments property operators have the right to post 30.06 notices, even though the property is owned by a government entity. And yet the law is clear: if a property is owned by a government, 30.06 cannot be enforced. The lessee has no rights that are unavailable to the lessor, because the lessor cannot transfer rights he does not have. "Lessor", being a government agency in this case, cannot forbid licensed concealed carry, and sublessees cannot add restrictions unavailable to the lessor.

    Kevin
    This seems like the best answer so far. I say carry there, kindly and cordially present the facts to them that it is legal and they haven't the legal right to tell you to do otherwise, then offer to "disarm" for free admission . All of this, of course, while you keep your BUG on you, lol.

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    DreQo wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    We've seen arguments property operators have the right to post 30.06 notices, even though the property is owned by a government entity. And yet the law is clear: if a property is owned by a government, 30.06 cannot be enforced. The lessee has no rights that are unavailable to the lessor, because the lessor cannot transfer rights he does not have. "Lessor", being a government agency in this case, cannot forbid licensed concealed carry, and sublessees cannot add restrictions unavailable to the lessor.
    This seems like the best answer so far. I say carry there, kindly and cordially present the facts to them that it is legal and they haven't the legal right to tell you to do otherwise, then offer to "disarm" for free admission . All of this, of course, while you keep your BUG on you, lol.

    Anotheralternative is the semi-surreptitious but legal entry tactic (SSLE).Just place your normal (loaded) OC gun, holster and any spare mags in a nondescript container (knapsack, messenger bag, tote bag, briefcase,etc). Go through the entry process by buying he ticket, presentingit to the checker, getting your hand stamped and walking into the show. If someone is calling out to"check for guns" just keep on walking. If anyone directly questions you, say, "I have absolutely nothing illegal in my bag and I'm just here to pick up some supplies, accessories,and maybe a new gun. Thank you for asking, sir."

    As soon as you're in the show, repair to the men's room, grab a stall, install your OC holster onto your belt and your gun into the holster. Add your extra mags and, voilĂ*!You're 100% legal and you're inside the show. Just amble about,checking out all the good stuff,acting in aconfident and assured manner, and buy/sell your stuff. Chances are good nobody will even notice you.

    If anyone would care to question you--politely (or cordially) explainhow they have no authority legal or otherwise to preventyou from lawfully bearing arms. Use anyor all oftheabove posted arguments and legal points.

    Since you're already in the show and since youwill have a completely persuasive set of arguments, the show's operators can only decide inyour favor. They will have no basisto detain or eject you. As the Hamptongun show thread clearly showed, the VA police who showed up to check out an OCerconfirmed that OC was legal at the show.

    After a few dozen (or more) law-abiding OCers use the SSLE tactic and there are no O.K.Corral-type incidents, the gun showoperators will assuredly get the message and will modify their rules accordingly. The insurance companies will, of course, follow suit andchange theirgrossly ill-conceived and over-bearing restrictions for all future gun shows.




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    HankT wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    If you rent public property for a function in Hampton, you're renting it from me, the taxpayer. I'll be damned if I'll be denied my rights on my property.
    Weren't you the chap that declined to OC at the Hampton show?

    Something about exercising your right was too aggravating or invonvenient or something...

    Seems simple enough. Just show up and OC. If they don't like it, tough.

    I guess you missed the part about compromise, Hank. If there are to continue to be gun shows, there must be insurers to insure them.

    If I have to carry concealed to keep the insurers providing insurance so that we can continue to have gun shows, then I will.

    I haven't been denied my rights in any way. Still carrying my firearm, I have simply chosen to carry it concealed based on the facts at my disposal and what I consider to be my best interest.

    The RKBA also includes concealed carry. Isn't it all about freedom of choice?


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    glocknroll wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    If you rent public property for a function in Hampton, you're renting it from me, the taxpayer. I'll be damned if I'll be denied my rights on my property.
    Weren't you the chap that declined to OC at the Hampton show?

    Something about exercising your right was too aggravating or invonvenient or something...

    Seems simple enough. Just show up and OC. If they don't like it, tough.

    I guess you missed the part about compromise, Hank. If there are to continue to be gun shows, there must be insurers to insure them.

    If I have to carry concealed to keep the insurers providing insurance so that we can continue to have gun shows, then I will.

    I haven't been denied my rights in any way. Still carrying my firearm, I have simply chosen to carry it concealed based on the facts at my disposal and what I consider to be my best interest.

    The RKBA also includes concealed carry. Isn't it all about freedom of choice?
    I guess you missed the part about Compromise being bad. Remember, that's the message of Kelly J: No Compromises!

    You are indeed letting theanti-2A gun show operators and rapacious insurance companiesdeny you your God-given rights. To the detriment, I might add, of all legal OCers in VA.

    A right unexercised is a right lost! Be strong!

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    HankT wrote:
    DreQo wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    We've seen arguments property operators have the right to post 30.06 notices, even though the property is owned by a government entity. And yet the law is clear: if a property is owned by a government, 30.06 cannot be enforced. The lessee has no rights that are unavailable to the lessor, because the lessor cannot transfer rights he does not have. "Lessor", being a government agency in this case, cannot forbid licensed concealed carry, and sublessees cannot add restrictions unavailable to the lessor.
    This seems like the best answer so far. I say carry there, kindly and cordially present the facts to them that it is legal and they haven't the legal right to tell you to do otherwise, then offer to "disarm" for free admission . All of this, of course, while you keep your BUG on you, lol.

    Anotheralternative......
    But then you don't get in for free!!

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    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    the law is clear: if a property is owned by a government, 30.06 cannot be enforced. The lessee has no rights that are unavailable to the lessor, because the lessor cannot transfer rights he does not have. "Lessor", being a government agency in this case, cannot forbid licensed concealed carry, and sublessees cannot add restrictions unavailable to the lessor.
    That is a very interesting observation.

    What happens if the promoter refuses to sell a ticket to somebody who "just happens to be" open-carrying. For the purpose of this discussion, we will say that the promoter never says a word about the gun. He just simply refuses to sell a ticket for admission.

    In this case, what is your recourse? Mind you, I'm not inviting discussion of what body cavity you can hide your B.U.G. in for the purpose of sneaking a gun past the ticket-seller.

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    HankT wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    If you rent public property for a function in Hampton, you're renting it from me, the taxpayer. I'll be damned if I'll be denied my rights on my property.
    Weren't you the chap that declined to OC at the Hampton show?

    Something about exercising your right was too aggravating or invonvenient or something...

    Seems simple enough. Just show up and OC. If they don't like it, tough.

    I guess you missed the part about compromise, Hank. If there are to continue to be gun shows, there must be insurers to insure them.

    If I have to carry concealed to keep the insurers providing insurance so that we can continue to have gun shows, then I will.

    I haven't been denied my rights in any way. Still carrying my firearm, I have simply chosen to carry it concealed based on the facts at my disposal and what I consider to be my best interest.

    The RKBA also includes concealed carry. Isn't it all about freedom of choice?
    I guess you missed the part about Compromise being bad. Remember, that's the message of Kelly J: No Compromises!

    You are indeed letting theanti-2A gun show operators and rapacious insurance companiesdeny you your God-given rights. To the detriment, I might add, of all legal OCers in VA.

    A right unexercised is a right lost! Be strong!
    If this were a situation of being denied my 2nd amendment rights by a governmental entity, I would be in complete agreement with you.

    Unfortunately, insurance companies are private corporations, concerned with their particular form of gambling. The house always wins.

    If the insurance companies were to insist on installing metal detectors, or conducting pat down searches of those entering, my attitude toward this intrusion would change completely.

    Forgive me my weakness, Hank. We can't all be as strong, bold, and daring as you.


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    W.E.G. wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    the law is clear: if a property is owned by a government, 30.06 cannot be enforced. The lessee has no rights that are unavailable to the lessor, because the lessor cannot transfer rights he does not have. "Lessor", being a government agency in this case, cannot forbid licensed concealed carry, and sublessees cannot add restrictions unavailable to the lessor.
    That is a very interesting observation.

    What happens if the promoter refuses to sell a ticket to somebody who "just happens to be" open-carrying. For the purpose of this discussion, we will say that the promoter never says a word about the gun. He just simply refuses to sell a ticket for admission.

    In this case, what is your recourse? Mind you, I'm not inviting discussion of what body cavity you can hide your B.U.G. in for the purpose of sneaking a gun past the ticket-seller.
    If the promoter were to refuse me entrance, after I had chosen to OC in a municipal building, then I would call the police. I believe, based on previous cases (at least in Hampton), that the police would, for once, insist that I be allowed to enter. If not, then I would be suing the promoter for attempting to deny me my constitutional rights.

    What are you going to do next time you are denied entry onto an airplane because you are OC'ing?

    Fight the good fight. Be strong. Never compromise. I'll donate to your canteen fund, just let me know what federal prison to send it to.

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