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Thread: Stopped, Disarmed and Lectured by Olympia PD

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    About 4:45 today I was reading a novel and had an open box of cookies next to me in Percivial Landing Park. I was sitting facing the water near the dinghy dock (F) which is near a playground and the public restrooms. I was wearing blue jeans, a grey button down long sleeveshirt,and my cammo Sportsman's Wearhouse capand carrying my 6" barrel stainless Security Six on my right hip in a full length nylon holster. Three OPD officers lead by an Officer Houser politely approached me, had my stand up, do the whole lace fingers behind head thing, removed my weapon and patted me down. I was calm and cooperative the whole time, stating "It's perfectly legal" and "what laws am I breaking?" The other two officers whose names I did not get (more on that later) were more or less silent and in the background. Officer Houser was the one I had the most contact with.

    After I was disarmed I was told to produce ID and my CPL (if any) and to sit down. I complied and they ran my ID. Officer Houser asked why I was OC'ing. I replied "It is perfectly legal and I am more comfortable with it." He then tried to invoke the "Causing Alarm" laws. I told him that while I did not have the case law handy that the Courts had held that a person carrying a holstered pistol in a peaceable manner ( I was reading a book and eating Keebler Grasshoppers for crying out loud!) Houser continued to lecture me on why OC was a Bad Thing To Do In Olympia. I maintained my "perfectly legal stance", etc... All this was going on while the OPD computers were trying to decide if I was a Bad Man. His partner who took my weapon and unloaded it said that I could be scaring people and I should just cover up. He said he didn't want to infringe on my rights, but Oly is such a liberal city, blah, blah, blah. All cops carry concealed when off duty and so should I. Cop just shot a bunch of people in Wisconsion and people are gun shy right now, etc...

    After another adomation from Houser that I should just carry concealed, I was told my weapon had been placed inside my backpack (size medium ALICE pack, best dang thing in the world for carrying a load of paperbacks to the book store ever made!) and that I shouldn't reload it in the park, and then suggested that maybe I should wait to reload it when I got home. I boogied to the nearest internet connection and reloaded it in the bathroom of the coffee shop. I then concealed it, because I have various business reasons for concealing in a lot of stores in Thurston County. (more on that later)

    Why did I not get cards? Because I got the head cop's name which is sufficient to track down the paper work filed and I did not want them to think I was going to be making a complaint against their stupid asses which might influence how they wrote the paper work.

    So lesse, disarmed and searched in public, a final grudging acknowledgement of legality, a statement that court rulings do not make case law (this from Houser) my pistol unloaded (rounds were returned, all six of them, I checked) and a suggestion not to reload until I got home, but of course they did not want to infringe on my rights, but Oly being so liberal and everything I should just wear a long coat or hide my weapon, blah blah blah.

    I want to see the police report and see the 911 logs before I take further action. I was calm and cooperative the whole time, and made every effort to comply with the officer's actions.

    As I have said before, around Thurston County I CC 99% of the time because I cannot afford to offend/piss off/or whatever thestores that I make a living in as a vendor.

    In fact I have been told not to carry at work. That's fine, I have nifty pepper spray thingies and other weapons I carry with me at work. So basically on one of the two days I actually carry all day around home, and in a rare moment of OC'ing, enjoying a comfortable rain free day, eating mint cookies and reading a book looking at the water I get messed with. I don't have this much trouble in Seattle. In fact I mentioned a Seattle encounter to Houser and he brushed it off by saying nobody had called 911 then. Whatever.

    So what should I do next? Thanks for the advice ahead of time everybody.

    BTW, Mr. "Good Cop" who returned my rounds to me (actually didn't hand them to me but put them in my bag, but didn't care about my speedloader) told me yesterday they had responded to a call at the mall about someone OCing. Good. They will have to get used to the notion of people exercising their rights.

    Dang but I'm annoyed.

    Steve

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    Sounds like you have a good handle on what to do.

    You could PM some of the fellas from Washington for the nuances.




    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Sounds like we're getting more and more places to hold an OC Picnic!

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    Maybe I'm wrong, but I though case law was law that came about from court cases.

    I wonder how much more they would have hasseled you if you had just reloaded and continued OC'ing right there in front of them.:P

    Transcript of 911 call would be interesting. Was it a false report of you doing something other than reading and eating? Or did the opperator ever ask if you were doing anything illegal? Generally, I think the 911 opperators need to be informed, and need to inform people calling in, that just OC'ing is completely legal and not a valid reason for sending an officer out.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    All cops carry concealed when off duty and so should I.
    Olsen tried that line on me too. I don't understand how that is significant.

    I'm up for an Oly lunch.

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    Oly's right up my alley! <enter rimshot here>

    Seriously though, short of holding a picnick directly in Shelton, Oly is about as close as I could hope for.

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    Sitrep wrote:
    I wonder how much more they would have hasseled you if you had just reloaded and continued OC'ing right there in front of them.
    The simple act of carrying a firearm openly on your person does not meet the requirements of RCW 9.41.270 "Alarm". Taking a firearm out of a backpack, opening the action, loading cartridges into the weapon would without a doubt meet the qualifications of "Alarm" and would be a violation of RCW 9.41.270.

    Best to find a private place to reload, then I would have returned right back to the spot where I was.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Shelton or Oly sounds good to me......I have grandparents in Shelton that I need to visit sometime this year :P.....Shelton is a straight shot from Oly, so both work......

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    He then tried to invoke the "Causing Alarm" laws. I told him that while I did not have the case law handy that the Courts had held that a person carrying a holstered pistol in a peaceable manner... Houser continued to lecture me on why OC was a Bad Thing To Do In Olympia.... His partner who took my weapon and unloaded it said that I could be scaring people and I should just cover up. He said he didn't want to infringe on my rights, but Oly is such a liberal city, blah, blah, blah. All cops carry concealed when off duty and so should I...

    ...I then concealed it, because I have various business reasons for concealing in a lot of stores in Thurston County. (more on that later)...


    As I have said before, around Thurston County I CC 99% of the time because I cannot afford to offend/piss off/or whatever thestores that I make a living in as a vendor.

    In fact I have been told not to carry at work. That's fine, ...

    Interesting how the principles espoused by He and Iare so similar. And each set of principles makes ohso much sense to each person.

    Yet, it is unlikely thatHe and I will ever agree.

    Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    I had to "Blog" about this today. Here is a quote from that blog:

    So, when an agent of the government stops and searches us for no reason other than seeing us exercising our rights, they violate our Forth Amendment right to be secure in our persons and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures. If they order us to cover our firearm, they are violating our First Amendment rights, and if they disarm us, they violate our Second Amendment right and inhibit our ability to protect our God given right to life.
    Click here for the full post.

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    HankT wrote:


    Interesting how the principles espoused by He and Iare so similar. And each set of principles makes ohso much sense to each person.

    Yet, it is unlikely thatHe and I will ever agree.

    Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.
    Whatever. I have this amazing habit of wanting to keep my job. I CC around town for business reasons or when I ride the bus for tactical reasons. Anyplace outside of where I work in Oly I OC, such as the park.

    The nice thing is to have the option to do either as I chose, when I chose, and where I chose, not to have to do one or the other by dictates of Police. I accept the limitations imposed by my job, and knew them when I got into it. I was not forced into a position to only CC by outside forces I have not control over.

    But when I OC damnit, I expect the fuzz to act civilized like they seem to in Seattle.

    Steve

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    I wonder how much more they would have hasseled you if you had just reloaded and continued OC'ing right there in front of them.:P

    Transcript of 911 call would be interesting. Was it a false report of you doing something other than reading and eating? Or did the opperator ever ask if you were doing anything illegal? Generally, I think the 911 opperators need to be informed, and need to inform people calling in, that just OC'ing is completely legal and not a valid reason for sending an officer out.
    I really thought about going into one of the bathroom stalls and reloading, etc... but I wanted to get this typed out while the incident was fresh in my mind.

    After further thought I realized they probably had no cause to open my bag (supposedly to put my weapon in it) unless I was under arrest. You know as well as I do that they poked around in my bag and searched it.

    I am going to go up there in a bit and look at the transcipts and figure out how I am going to complain.

    Steve

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    gregma wrote:
    Sitrep wrote:
    I wonder how much more they would have hasseled you if you had just reloaded and continued OC'ing right there in front of them.
    The simple act of carrying a firearm openly on your person does not meet the requirements of RCW 9.41.270 "Alarm". Taking a firearm out of a backpack, opening the action, loading cartridges into the weapon would without a doubt meet the qualifications of "Alarm" and would be a violation of RCW 9.41.270.

    Best to find a private place to reload, then I would have returned right back to the spot where I was.

    Please help our growing organization: http://www.nwcdl.org
    This would be very close to entrapment. If the police, unjustly and without cause, unload your weapon, should they then be able to cite you under 9.41.270 for you simply fixing the problem they created(your gun being unloaded)?

    IANAL, but it would seem to me the police can't cause you to break a law that you would otherwise not have broken--that is the principle behind entrapment. If you would not have been loading your weapon in public BUT FOR the police unnecessarily unloading it, you would not have committed a crime.

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    joshmmm wrote:
    gregma wrote:
    Sitrep wrote:
    I wonder how much more they would have hasseled you if you had just reloaded and continued OC'ing right there in front of them.
    The simple act of carrying a firearm openly on your person does not meet the requirements of RCW 9.41.270 "Alarm". Taking a firearm out of a backpack, opening the action, loading cartridges into the weapon would without a doubt meet the qualifications of "Alarm" and would be a violation of RCW 9.41.270.

    Best to find a private place to reload, then I would have returned right back to the spot where I was.

    Please help our growing organization: http://www.nwcdl.org
    This would be very close to entrapment. If the police, unjustly and without cause, unload your weapon, should they then be able to cite you under 9.41.270 for you simply fixing the problem they created(your gun being unloaded)?

    IANAL, but it would seem to me the police can't cause you to break a law that you would otherwise not have broken--that is the principle behind entrapment. If you would not have been loading your weapon in public BUT FOR the police unnecessarily unloading it, you would not have committed a crime.
    I completely agree with you. I'm sure you could easily beat the case. However *I* don't have the $50,000 it would take in lawyer fees to fight it

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    gregma wrote:
    Sitrep wrote:
    I wonder how much more they would have hasseled you if you had just reloaded and continued OC'ing right there in front of them.
    The simple act of carrying a firearm openly on your person does not meet the requirements of RCW 9.41.270 "Alarm". Taking a firearm out of a backpack, opening the action, loading cartridges into the weapon would without a doubt meet the qualifications of "Alarm" and would be a violation of RCW 9.41.270.

    Best to find a private place to reload, then I would have returned right back to the spot where I was.

    Please help our growing organization: http://www.nwcdl.org
    If you wanted to push the envelope, see about getting the officer who drew your weapon arrested under RCW 9.41.270. IANAL but since you were not doing anything illegal and the officer had no PC, (3) (b) would not seem to apply as an exception to the RCW. Just a thought and would depend on how far you wanted to push the envelope.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments

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    sccrref wrote:

    If you wanted to push the envelope, see about getting the officer who drew your weapon arrested under RCW 9.41.270. IANAL but since you were not doing anything illegal and the officer had no PC, (3) (b) would not seem to apply as an exception to the RCW. Just a thought and would depend on how far you wanted to push the envelope.
    Hmmm.... interesting, might throw it out incidentally just to make them deal with the argument.

    Steve

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