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Thread: No Treason

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Most here like to get into really deep discussions so I thought I would give you one that should keep you going for a while, this is in response to the word treason being tossed around pretty freely, I've even tossed it around a bit myself.

    I offer this article as a source of information, and personally I do not agree or disagree with it as I have not finished it yet. Hope you enjoy.

    http://www.lysanderspooner.org:80/notreason.htm

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    Part of the reason that this country is able to deteriorate so rapidly is because we no longer punish treason. That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office. Our civil servants would likely start shaping up if they actually had to start facing the consequences of their actions.

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Demarest wrote:
    Part of the reason that this country is able to deteriorate so rapidly is because we no longer punish treason. That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office. Our civil servants would likely start shaping up if they actually had to start facing the consequences of their actions.
    Not to be controversial but "can you accurately define a Treasonist", I thought I knew what they were but at this point in time after reading five parts of this doc. I'm not sure , I fully understand, the meaning any more.

    The only Treasonist person that I know for sure was guilty of Treason was Benidict Arnold.

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    Demarest wrote:
    Part of the reason that this country is able to deteriorate so rapidly is because we no longer punish treason. That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office. Our civil servants would likely start shaping up if they actually had to start facing the consequences of their actions.
    But then wouldn't we have to hang 99.9% of public officials for treason? Not that I'm opposed to the idea, but it would be expensive to get that much rope...

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Demarest wrote:
    Part of the reason that this country is able to deteriorate so rapidly is because we no longer punish treason. That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office. Our civil servants would likely start shaping up if they actually had to start facing the consequences of their actions.
    But then wouldn't we have to hang 99.9% of public officials for treason? Not that I'm opposed to the idea, but it would be expensive to get that much rope...
    Nah. We would just use the same noose.:celebrate

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    But then wouldn't we have to hang 99.9% of public officials for treason? Not that I'm opposed to the idea, but it would be expensive to get that much rope...

    Minor problem, easily solved. Just offer the rope contract to any powerful interest that seems to think it would benefit from the others being hanged.

    You'd have a hundred competing bids.

    Offer to helparrange financing for re-tooling the rope factory so the bankers could get involved; everybody would be happy.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Demarest wrote:
    Part of the reason that this country is able to deteriorate so rapidly is because we no longer punish treason. That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office. Our civil servants would likely start shaping up if they actually had to start facing the consequences of their actions.
    But then wouldn't we have to hang 99.9% of public officials for treason? Not that I'm opposed to the idea, but it would be expensive to get that much rope...
    Well there's a difference between traitorous and treasonous. In terms of political alignment and activity, raitorousness is to defy the principles your nation was founded upon. Those who are treasonous not only defy the principles, but they hand over the reigns to outside sources.

    I know little of Benedict Arnold, but I would strongly disagree that he's been our nation's only treasonous figurehead.

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    Demarest wrote:
    I know little of Benedict Arnold, but I would strongly disagree that he's been our nation's only treasonous figurehead.
    You have to read the essay linked in the OP to understand what he's saying.

    The author takes a level look at the principle of consent of the governed and shows that the US government does notactually operate on that principle. You have tobelieve a few little white lies to believe that it does.

    Did you ever consent to the Constitution? Do you consent to the existing state of affairs?

    Ever signed a contract with your Congressman authorizing him to act as your legal agent in matters of government? Why not?Would it not be THE most appropriate placeto have a legal document authorizing him to be your agent? Can he really be your agent (representative) without that contract?

    There is more, lots more, in the essay.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Did you ever consent to the Constitution? Do you consent to the existing state of affairs?

    Ever signed a contract with your Congressman authorizing him to act as your legal agent in matters of government? Why not?Would it not be THE most appropriate placeto have a legal document authorizing him to be your agent? Can he really be your agent (representative) without that contract?
    Can I sign up for the Articles of the Confederation instead?

    I'll be reading the essay this weekend when I have a larger chunk of free time...

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    I finally read the whole thing. Quite an excellent post KellyJ!! Thank you first and foremost for sharing that with us.

    However I have come to the conclusion that I was never more right in my previous out cries of treason. The members of all three branches of goverment swear by the Constitution of the United States Of America. They swear to uphold and defend, so if you consider this a country or not does not matter because they have sworn on their own behalf and have made a pledge to the Constitution.

    Secondly they take advantage of sensitive knowledge given to them while in office to bring harm to the very thing they swore to protect. By using and creating loop holes and pushing legislation through without votes I consider that harmful.

    I could go on and on with how I feel about the treasonist acts of certain members of the goverment. However on a munliciple level however I am not 100% sure they swear on anything. And unfotunetly goverment on smaller levels are incredibly worse than federal. So maybe I was wrong in calling certain township and county supervisors treasonist. I apologize...

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    Demarest wrote:
    SNIP That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office.
    Absolutely, right!

    We never impeach because we can't. A quick way to say it would be: Only the gov't can impeach itself.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    WhiteFeather wrote:
    I finally read the whole thing. Quite an excellent post KellyJ!! Thank you first and foremost for sharing that with us.

    However I have come to the conclusion that I was never more right in my previous out cries of treason. The members of all three branches of goverment swear by the Constitution of the United States Of America. They swear to uphold and defend, so if you consider this a country or not does not matter because they have sworn on their own behalf and have made a pledge to the Constitution.

    Secondly they take advantage of sensitive knowledge given to them while in office to bring harm to the very thing they swore to protect. By using and creating loop holes and pushing legislation through without votes I consider that harmful.

    I could go on and on with how I feel about the treasonist acts of certain members of the goverment. However on a munliciple level however I am not 100% sure they swear on anything. And unfotunetly goverment on smaller levels are incredibly worse than federal. So maybe I was wrong in calling certain township and county supervisors treasonist. I apologize...
    I can only take credit for the posting it was refered to me by Citizen, I am still dgesting the thing and want to go back and reread some of it before commenting but when I'm ready I will do so.

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Demarest wrote:
    SNIP That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office.
    Absolutely, right!

    We never impeach because we can't. A quick way to say it would be: Only the gov't can impeach itself.

    I believe on this statement you are correct, as only the Congress can impeach, as citizens of this country, we have the vote, to correct a wrong, you see we put them in office, we can take them out of office, and right now there are a whole bunch of them that really need to go, I for one am getting real tired of their childish, back bitting, lack of preforming the job they were voted into office to do, and this Partizen politics, has got to end, when I was a child I would have gotten a severe spanking for doing these sort of things, and made to straighten out and fly right, was my Mothers favorite saying, MyDad, on the other hand, was always going to get a pisselum club, and hold a beating, to put an end to the nonsence.



    Perhaps we need to take the House, and Senate out behing the Barn, and hold a few beatings of our own, after all, they do work for us, do they not?


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    Kelly J wrote:
    SNIP ...after all, they do work for us, do they not?
    Apparently they don't think so.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Kelly J wrote:
    SNIP ...after all, they do work for us, do they not?
    Apparently they don't think so.

    Then don't you think we need to remind them, of who is paying their paycheck, and the real cussy retirement package they voted in for themselves, at he present time, I am drawing Disability,and it is my only source of income, would I like to have a package for retirement, that paid me exactlly what I made on the Job, you darn right I would, but then I like the vast majority of the working class of people, did not get asked, if we wanted the same medical coverage they have, or the same retirement package they have, so we are forced to get by as best as we can, on what little we get, and make do.

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    Kelly J wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Kelly J wrote:
    SNIP ...after all, they do work for us, do they not?
    Apparently they don't think so.

    Then don't you think we need to remind them, of who is paying their paycheck, and the real cussy retirement package they voted in for themselves, at he present time, I am drawing Disability,and it is my only source of income, would I like to have a package for retirement, that paid me exactlly what I made on the Job, you darn right I would, but then I like the vast majority of the working class of people, did not get asked, if we wanted the same medical coverage they have, or the same retirement package they have, so we are forced to get by as best as we can, on what little we get, and make do.
    Yep. That's why I'll be voting.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Demarest wrote:
    Part of the reason that this country is able to deteriorate so rapidly is because we no longer punish treason. That and we never impeach our elected officials when they commit high crimes. ESPECIALLY of judges that neglect their duty of office. Our civil servants would likely start shaping up if they actually had to start facing the consequences of their actions.

    I thought that's where the 2A came in. At least that's what it was DESIGNED for...

    So this is what the colonists felt like...

    What a shame...



    (patiently waiting for the next revolution...)


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