Spoke With OPD Internal Affairs

sv_libertarian · Oct 9, 2007

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I just finished speaking with Lt. William Wilson of the Olympia PD's Professional Standards Office. I went over my recent experience with him, expressed my concerns over the nature of the stop, the seeming lack of education the officers had, the unwarranted opening of my backpack without my permission, the unloading of my weapon in an obviously unsafe area, etc... pretty much everything I have already gone over here.

No police report was filed, Lt. Wilson had to get the dispatch logs instead, which he went over with me. I then made a recorded statement after going over the incident with him. He agreed that I was breaking no laws, nor was I engaged in behavior that could cause alarm. He also agreed that whoever placed my weapon in my bag had no cause to open it. He tried to split some legal hairs over the fact I did not in fact see anyone open my bag, but as I pointed out, I didn't put my weapon in there, nor did it wander in there itself. (Hey, I got a gun that puts itself away! Ain't that neat. Now I just have to teach it not to pull it's own trigger:lol

At all times Lt. Wilson was courteous and aknowledged my rights. He asked me rather than file a formal complaint if I would agree to "mediation" which involves me, the three officers involved and Lt. Wilson sitting down at a "neutral" location and going over the incident. I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree. I am going to push for a training bulletin to be issued.

The whole thing went well and I am sure that the entire episode will serve as a rich source of training material and ass chewings amongst the OPD.

Steve

Agent 47 · Oct 9, 2007

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Good to hear, sounds like Olympia may become a safer place to OC.

sv_libertarian · Oct 9, 2007

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Agent 47 wrote:

Good to hear, sounds like Olympia may become a safer place to OC.

Lt. Wilson felt the urge to quiz me if I knew which places were "off limits" to carrying a pistol. He then pointed out that while I couldn't carry one in the police station, nothing would prevent me from carrying in the Capitol Building. Strange ain't it?

Steve

gregma · Oct 9, 2007

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sv_libertarian wrote:

The whole thing went well and I am sure that the entire episode will serve as a rich source of training material and ass chewings amongst the OPD.

Steve

Great Job!

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gregma · Oct 9, 2007

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Agent 47 wrote:

Good to hear, sounds like Olympia may become a safer place to OC.

Click to expand...

Lt. Wilson felt the urge to quiz me if I knew which places were "off limits" to carrying a pistol. He then pointed out that while I couldn't carry one in the police station, nothing would prevent me from carrying in the Capitol Building. Strange ain't it?

Steve

Techincally you can carry one in the police station. It's just the "restricted" areas of a police facility where firearms are prohibited.

RCW 9.41.300

(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon: (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

Please help our growing organization: http://www.nwcdl.org

joshmmm · Oct 9, 2007

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Agent 47 wrote:

Good to hear, sounds like Olympia may become a safer place to OC.

Click to expand...

Lt. Wilson felt the urge to quiz me if I knew which places were "off limits" to carrying a pistol. He then pointed out that while I couldn't carry one in the police station, nothing would prevent me from carrying in the Capitol Building. Strange ain't it?

Steve

Why exactly can't you carry in the police station? You are only restricted from carrying in the restricted access areas of a police station... this should not be the whole police station if you read the RCW carefully...

sv_libertarian · Oct 9, 2007

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Why exactly can't you carry in the police station? You are only restricted from carrying in the restricted access areas of a police station... this should not be the whole police station if you read the RCW carefully...

Yes, the word "restricted" was used. Sorry for missing that in my post. I'm a bit tired and have a headache:banghead:

Steve

joeroket · Oct 9, 2007

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Also you are allowed to carry in the restricted area of a police dept if you get written permission from the chief or his designee.

(7) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises or checks his or her firearm. The person may reclaim the firearms upon leaving but must immediately and directly depart from the place or facility.

cato · Oct 9, 2007

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sv_libertarian wrote:

I just finished speaking with Lt. William Wilson of the Olympia PD's Professional Standards Office...At all times Lt. Wilson was courteous and acknowledged my rights. He asked me rather than file a formal complaint if I would agree to "mediation" which involves me, the three officers involved and Lt. Wilson sitting down at a "neutral" location and going over the incident. I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree. I am going to push for a training bulletin to be issued.

The whole thing went well and I am sure that the entire episode will serve as a rich source of training material and ass chewings amongst the OPD.

Some thoughts:

"I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree."

The training may or may not be better with an informal meeting. I guaranteeit will most likely be better if a complaint is filed. A formal sustained complaint entered in the officers personnel fileand some minor discipline will go a lot further in convincing any officer of that department and those of the surrounding departments (as these thing do get around informally) to never so boldly violate our rights again.

Please do not settle for the good Lt. convincing you to do aninformal meeting. Let them know you mean business. Sweeping it under the rug lets them know it was no big deal. If you get it into their employee package then they will not make the same mistake again or willbegin sufferingdays off without pay.

The Lt's expertise is in making complaints go away, thereby limiting the departments legal liability. These officers violated a constitutional right and absent criminal action on your part should have left you free and unmolested.

If you go for the "informal meeting" and it is anything less then the officers prostrating them selves, apologizing, and asking forgiveness, and is rather an exercise in getting you to understand and accept their actions,go file the complaint.

I am sure that the entire episode will serve as a rich source of training material...

This will include a good laugh over your stop and not much else (absent a formal complaint).

...and ass chewings amongst the OPD.

Again, I doubt much will be made of it without a complaint.

(copyright protected image of the pro-RKBA photographer Oleg Volk):

Bear 45/70 · Oct 9, 2007

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cato wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

I just finished speaking with Lt. William Wilson of the Olympia PD's Professional Standards Office...At all times Lt. Wilson was courteous and acknowledged my rights. He asked me rather than file a formal complaint if I would agree to "mediation" which involves me, the three officers involved and Lt. Wilson sitting down at a "neutral" location and going over the incident. I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree. I am going to push for a training bulletin to be issued.

The whole thing went well and I am sure that the entire episode will serve as a rich source of training material and ass chewings amongst the OPD.

Click to expand...

Some thoughts:

"I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree."

Click to expand...

The training may or may not be better with an informal meeting. I guaranteeit will most likely be better if a complaint is filed. A formal sustained complaint entered in the officers personnel fileand some minor discipline will go a lot further in convincing any officer of that department and those of the surrounding departments (as these thing do get around informally) to never so boldly violate our rights again.

Please do not settle for the good Lt. convincing you to do aninformal meeting. Let them know you mean business. Sweeping it under the rug lets them know it was no big deal. If you get it into their employee package then they will not make the same mistake again or willbegin sufferingdays off without pay.

The Lt's expertise is in making complaints go away, thereby limiting the departments legal liability. These officers violated a constitutional right and absent criminal action on your part should have left you free and unmolested.

If you go for the "informal meeting" and it is anything less then the officers prostrating them selves, apologizing, and asking forgiveness, and is rather an exercise in getting you to understand and accept their actions,go file the complaint.

I am sure that the entire episode will serve as a rich source of training material...

Click to expand...

This will include a good laugh over your stop and nothing much else (absent a formal complaint).

...and ass chewings amongst the OPD.

Click to expand...

Again, I doubt much will be made of it without a complaint.

Damn, you sure are positive that nothing happens unless you get nasty. You must be real pleasant to work with.

cato · Oct 9, 2007

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Damn, you sure are positive that nothing happens unless you get nasty. You must be real pleasant to work with.

Only lately. But as I work for the man

, in all my years I've yet to see any complaints sustained without video or audio (that's why I tell you guys to get recorders), but when formal complaints are made it makes the system focus and spend resources on the incident (the brass hate to work so they unfound the complaint andtell the officer to knock "it" off - when he doesn't they get pissed - and this actually does more to stop the "bad" behavior.

I came on the board pushing informal educational meetings with the police and their associations. I still advocate that before an incident happens. Once it "happens" I'm all for the complaint process as peaceful self defense carriers should not be subject to unconstitutional detentions and searches or guns pointed at them as in other postsbecause of LEO's ignorance ofor disrespect for certain Rights. We, LEOs, are paid well and expected to be professional and fair. Its true that the law is vast and there is much to learn over ones career, but in cases of disrespecting basic human rights like self defense and the 4th A., I say let the education begin and a complaint would be most effective IMnotsoHO. :dude:

I'm not too bad to work with and am rather mellow, but disobey a lawful order and I can get "nasty" if I need to. :shock:

Gene Beasley · Oct 9, 2007

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cato wrote:

The training may or may not be better with an informal meeting. I guaranteeit will most likely be better if a complaint is filed. A formal sustained complaint entered in the officers personnel fileand some minor discipline will go a lot further in convincing any officer of that department and those of the surrounding departments (as these thing do get around informally) to never so boldly violate our rights again.

Please do not settle for the good Lt. convincing you to do aninformal meeting. Let them know you mean business. Sweeping it under the rug lets them know it was no big deal. If you get it into their employee package then they will not make the same mistake again or willbegin sufferingdays off without pay.

The Lt's expertise is in making complaints go away, thereby limiting the departments legal liability. These officers violated a constitutional right and absent criminal action on your part should have left you free and unmolested.

If you go for the "informal meeting" and it is anything less then the officers prostrating them selves, apologizing, and asking forgiveness, and is rather an exercise in getting you to understand and accept their actions,go file the complaint.

I am going to have to agree here. It has nothing to do with your sunny disposition or lack thereof. Remember that police encounters of an enforcement nature and any type of "mediation" is going to be adversarial to some degree. Unless you take someone with you as an advocate, it's going to be three on one. There is nothing to prevent any or all of them from saying you're in the wrong and at best agreeing to disagree. I guess you could always leave the mediation with the understanding that the formal complaint will be in your back pocket if this should happen. I would want to know more about the terms of an informal mediation.

BluesBear · Oct 10, 2007

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sv_libertarian wrote:

At all times Lt. Wilson was courteous and aknowledged my rights. He asked me rather than file a formal complaint if I would agree to "mediation" which involves me, the three officers involved and Lt. Wilson sitting down at a "neutral" location and going over the incident. I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree. I am going to push for a training bulletin to be issued.

They want you to agree to mediation because you willthen give up your right to sue at a later time if things aren't settled to your satisfaction.

BluesBear · Oct 10, 2007

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Cato, that's a wonderful image you posted.

Howeverare you aware that it is a copyright protected image of the pro-RKBA photographer Oleg Volk of Tennessee?And to reproduce it you must give credit to him for it?

Oleg's a great person and if you simply acknowledge him when reproducing the image (for non-commercial use) you don't need written permission.

HankT · Oct 10, 2007

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BluesBear wrote:

Cato, that's a wonderful image you posted.

Howeverare you aware that it is a copyright protected image of the pro-RKBA photographer Oleg Volk of Tennessee?And to reproduce it you must give credit to him for it?

Oleg's a great person and if you simply acknowledge him when reproducing the image (for non-commercial use) you don't need written permission.

Ahh, those digital rights scofflaws neverchange because of a heads up. You gotta send them a formal cease and desist to get them to really change anything...

sv_libertarian wrote:

He asked me rather than file a formal complaint if I would agree to "mediation" which involves me, the three officers involved and Lt. Wilson sitting down at a "neutral" location and going over the incident. I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree. I am going to push for a training bulletin to be issued.

I rather like the idea of a (informal?) mediation meeting. I think it could be effective for your purpose. Depends on the quality of the mediation process and the integretity of the Lt. and the department. However, cato makes a pretty strong case for the formal complaint route. Is cato pretty jaded? Sure, but he also has an inside perspective that is pretty compelling.

But it's your call. Gotta use your instincts and judgment. I think the key is the Lt.'s integrity and professionalism. If he's just a guy whose expertise is making complaints go away, you're doomed. You've already been too accomodating.

But if you trust/respect/tolerate the Lt. to do generally the right thing, you will get some improvement to the system for your efforts and for your unfair and unlawful experience. Hmmm, what they did to you was actually unlawful....

Good luck to you, whichever path you take. Can you do the mediation and then the complaint if you're not satisfied with the mediation?

sv_libertarian wrote:

No police report was filed, Lt. Wilson had to get the dispatch logs instead, which he went over with me. I then made a recorded statement after going over the incident with him.

I am just thinking out loud here, but the lack of a written police report is a strong point to support any complaint you file--if everyone agrees that stop took place as you reported. Second, your making a recorded statement locks you in to whatever you said in it. They can pick at it if you say something inconsistent at the mediation meeting. (Or at a later complaint event.)

joeroket · Oct 10, 2007

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BluesBear wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

At all times Lt. Wilson was courteous and aknowledged my rights. He asked me rather than file a formal complaint if I would agree to "mediation" which involves me, the three officers involved and Lt. Wilson sitting down at a "neutral" location and going over the incident. I told him that if it resulted in better training that I would agree. I am going to push for a training bulletin to be issued.

Click to expand...

They want you to agree to mediation because you willthen give up your right to sue at a later time if things aren't settled to your satisfaction.

Mediation will not forfeit his rights to sue later, unless a release form is signed. If he signs nothing then there is still the possibility to sue later if he is not stisfied. In fact it may show a judge/jury that he was making a peaceful attempt to resolve it with the department himself rather than just being another sue happy citizen.

Ajetpilot · Oct 10, 2007

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It might not be a bad idea to buy an inexpensive digital recorder and openly record the informal meeting. I would call the Lt. before the meeting and make sure that everyone is comfortable with being recorded before you actually meet. If someone disagrees, forget the informal meeting andbegin the formal complaint process.

Mainsail · Oct 10, 2007

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It sounds like Lt Wilson extended the hand of cooperation in an effort to reach an understanding. I would have been thrilled if anyone in the Tacoma PD had made such an offer. The officers that detained you were clearly in the wrong. Nevertheless, I would embrace such an offer without hesitation. ‘Going to war’ with the OPD isn’t going to help you or further your goals.

Ask that the meeting be held in some neutral place like a restaurant, not the police station. Make sure you can bring friends along as well. If they decide to try to intimidate you into agreeing that an inappropriate Terry stop is acceptable for people openly carrying, it will help to have a few people on your side.

joshmmm · Oct 10, 2007

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Mainsail wrote:

It sounds like Lt Wilson extended the hand of cooperation in an effort to reach an understanding. I would have been thrilled if anyone in the Tacoma PD had made such an offer. The officers that detained you were clearly in the wrong. Nevertheless, I would embrace such an offer without hesitation. ‘Going to war’ with the OPD isn’t going to help you or further your goals.

Ask that the meeting be held in some neutral place like a restaurant, not the police station. Make sure you can bring friends along as well. If they decide to try to intimidate you into agreeing that an inappropriate Terry stop is acceptable for people openly carrying, it will help to have a few people on your side.

Mainsail has a good point... 4 on 1 is not the best situation for you but this informal meeting I personally think sounds like a great idea.

Be sure to bring all the training bulletins (especially Bellevue). Bring copies of the court cases; write up a summary to the points. Open carry at the meeting. Ensure that you dress reasonably and act civilly so they get a good idea of who open carriers are. If you have a friend who is a lawyer or is otherwise able to offer additional legal advice, bring him/her. Take notes of the meeting, ask them to sign the notes as accurate minutes of the conversation/points covered. Let them take notes as well, agree ahead of time that they will let you see their notes.

I would recommend against a tape recorder--it makes people too nervous about being quoted specifically. Written and agreed upon notes are just as useful in proving you had an agreement in principle later on. Tape recorders have a huge role in a non-consensual encounter, but I personally would be very apprehensive about meeting with someone who could later use that tape recorder against me.

Ravenhawk · Oct 10, 2007

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Just don't budge an inch in regards to your rights to open carry ... Make sure they understand YOU'RE doing them a favor here.

If YOU had broken a law like they did (terry stop) bet your bottem dollar you would get no slap on the wrist or sit down.

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