Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 56

Thread: First encounter with a LEO

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    So I just started to open carry about 2 weeks ago and today was my first encounter with a LEO. This literally happened about 5 minutes ago and im still pumped up on adrenaline so excuse any typos and or rambaling thoughts.

    My girlfriend and I were hungry and its a beautiful day outside so we decided to walk the half mile to subway and have lunch. The whole walk there and while eating in subway, no one even notices i was OCing. On the way back three police cars pull up behind us and he honks his horn. They all three exit there vehicles and one of the says "How ya doing?" I said, "fine, how are you?" The officer to his right yelled and pointed at me, "Keep your hands away from your weapon!" So I raised them about shoulder height while the first officer approached me and asked for my ID. I pointed to my jacket and he said go ahead.

    Im military so I handed him my Mil ID and my out of state DL. He asked if I had a CHL, I said no I dont. He told me I couldnt carry a gun then, so I explained ORC 9.86 and he asked his partner, the one that yelled at me if he knew anything about this. He said yes he is allowed to carry as long as its not concealed. I thought he was going to be cool but he was a real jerk about things. He kept trying to discorage me from carrying is a bad tone of voice. Things like "Do you have something to hide?" "Im a LEO and I dont just walk down the street with my weapon like that." He even asked what my first shirts name was so I guess now i am going to get a call from him.

    So the guy that yelled at me told his partner to get his digital camera out of his car and take a picture of me. I asked him if I was required to have my picture taken. I really didnt want them to have a picture of me, it just kind of felt like harrassment. So the guy that yelled at me quickly replied "YES you are required to have a picture taken. So they took it. Is this legal? Could I have refused? Should I call the sherriff?

    Any way, while all this is happening the third LEO was patting down my girlfriend and searching her purse behind me. I can maybe kind of understand that. But any way the first very nice officer said that expect to get a lot of police called on you, and he really tried to discourage me from OCing and all i told him was that I understand. Didnt say I would or wouldnt. He was very plesant and professional. Great officer.

    So does any one have any comments on getting my picture taken? What should I do? The officer that searched my girlfriend told her that they are taking my picture so they know who I am if they get another call. Plausible I guess.


    Comments?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Hilliard, OH, , USA
    Posts
    91

    Post imported post

    Definitely an illegal search on your GF. No way is a picture mandatory, although you are in a public place so its not illegal but you don't have to pose for it.

    A definite violation of rights. Where was this?

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    Fairborn Ohio. What should I do?

  4. #4
    Newbie cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,335

    Post imported post

    File a complaint for the illegal purse searchand pat down if she did not consent (was it done by a female officer?). It will discourage a next time and it will start a paper trail. Also start carrying a tape recorder. Always say that you do not consent to any searches but will obey all orders.

    They can not detain you without suspicion of a crime. However the way you relate the events, like the honking of the horn, and subsequent "consensual" conversation doesn't seem to me to be an illegal stop. You voluntarily gave your ID so no illegal issues there other then attempting to tell you it is unlawful to OC.

    Do some more reading here and begin to feel more comfortable in exercising your rights to not answer questions and refuse searches in a polite manner.

    http://www.flexyourrights.org/


  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Hilliard, OH, , USA
    Posts
    91

    Post imported post

    I'm not sure on what to do, but there is plenty of people around here who do know and have explained what they have done.

    Search for Dan Sayres (Ohio incident) and there are plenty of incidents in Virginia to reference.

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    You should definitely make a complaint with that department or this behavior will never be reviewed.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    She did consent to the search, she didnt know that she could refuse the search. And no it was not a female officer.

    Also, I can refuse to show my ID correct?

  8. #8
    Newbie cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,335

    Post imported post

    ID is not required in most states but I'll leave that up to someone else more knowledgeable in Oh. law.

    Start with this for your encounterfor other rights issues:

    http://www.flexyourrights.org/street_stop_scenario

    and for a pre-complaint Freedom of Information Act request info.(for intel. on the stop/event):

    new link http://foi.missouri.edu/foialett.html


  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    245

    Post imported post

    bangelo wrote:
    So I raised them about shoulder height while the first officer approached me and asked for my ID. I pointed to my jacket and he said go ahead.
    At this point, ask what this is about. If they have no probable cause--and they didn't--they don't have the power to stop you anymore than any other motorist would. Your next question would be whether you're free to go. If they answer no, you've turned the tables immensely. You demonstrate to them in a calm, peaceable manner that you are educated as to your rights and you put them on point that they need to keep it legal or they may suffer intradepartmental consequences.

    bangelo wrote:
    He told me I couldnt carry a gun then, so I explained ORC 9.86 and he asked his partner, the one that yelled at me if he knew anything about this.
    ORC 9.86 does specify open carry, but in the context of what laws localities may enact. Prior to that and still today, NO law outlawed open carry. So it is legal, but not because 9.86. The time to bring up 9.86 is if they try to tell you that they have a local law stating open carry is illegal. At which point, you can ask to be shown the law, and THEN you can point out that 9.86 pre-empts that law.

    bangelo wrote:
    'Im a LEO and I dont just walk down the street with my weapon like that.'
    "Well, sir, that is certainly your right to choose just as it is mine. The way I'm choosing right now is legal." We have enough police that are trying to enforce their opinions, not the law, and that is completely out of line under color of law.

    bangelo wrote:
    He even asked what my first shirts name was so I guess now i am going to get a call from him.
    I don't know what that means. A military thing I suppose? At any rate, you can again ask what this is about and if you are free to go. You can even remind them that without probable cause or reasonable suspicion, they cannot hold you. Since possession of a firearm and carrying it openly are both legal, just open carrying a firearm is neither probable cause nor reasonable suspicion.

    bangelo wrote:
    So the guy that yelled at me quickly replied 'YES you are required to have a picture taken.'
    "Show me the law, please." They weren't photographing anybody else and they had no reason to photograph you. You were being harrassed for being a resolute citizen, a gun owner, and an exerciser of your rights.

    bangelo wrote:
    Any way, while all this is happening the third LEO was patting down my girlfriend and searching her purse behind me. I can maybe kind of understand that.
    Granted, I can only share with you MY opinions. But I believe you should NOT at all understand that. Your girlfriend gave them no probable cause and they had no reasonable suspicion that she was guilty of any criminal activity. It would be out of their scope to even ask to search her. I read later that she DID consent. Be sure to educate her that she does NOT have to consent and that without consent, they may not search her purse. IF they had probable cause to speak to her in the first place in their official capacity as policemen, they may pat her down for weapons "for their safety." Because they have not met the requirement of probable cause, they couldn't even do that much. If they at that point try to give you a line about officer safety (this is said in the context of them having no probable cause), I really like David Ridley's, "Well, you don't have to approach me." Which to me means that if they're genuinely concerned about their safety, they can choose to not approach citizens that have given them no reason to in the first place.

    bangelo wrote:
    the first very nice officer said that expect to get a lot of police called on you
    "I expect dispatch to inform concerned callers that unless the person is engaging in CRIMINAL activity, it's not a police matter as it in and of itself is legal. I expect to not have police dispatched to a non-crime."

    bangelo wrote:
    he really tried to discourage me from OCing and all i told him was that I understand.
    I'm big on open carry for the purpose of education. That includes law enforcement. If he tries to talk you into his personal views, I would ask to see the law. He knows there isn't one, so he'll let you know that he cannot. Then maybe express joy that we live in a nation where two grown men may feel differently on a subject, but for as long as it is legal, he's really overstepping his bounds in trying to talk you into seeing things his way under color of law.

    Not at all saying it was a bad stop or that you did anything wrong. It IS an educational process and that includes us too. Same for the policemen. It sounds as if they were overall friendly about it, but that doesn't change the fact that they are spending time on a law-abiding citizen while reals crimes are being committed elsewhere. And when they overstep their bounds, politely or not, they need to be kept in check. If I were in your shoes, I would speak to their commanding officer. Let him know that the policemen weren't physical or anything like that, but that they ARE trying to enforce their opinions, not the law, that they ARE detaining citizens without probable cause, which isn't even within their powers, etc.

    If you have a bit of time, I think you might enjoy David Ridley's open carry audio/video found here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXnK5UyRI

    It's a good example of how to exercise your rights and protect yourself from police overstepping their bounds without at all disrespecting of provoking them. There are a couple differences in Ohio from that video IF you have an Ohio CHL: The first being we have a duty to inform. Secondly, and sadly, if requested, you must provide your CHL and another form of ID. These are true of Ohio CHL holders even if they're open carrying. But if you don't have an Ohio CHL, that video is a great reference.

    Thanks for sharing your story and giving us all an opporunity to learn from it

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    Wow, that was a great play by play. Thank you so much. And I can see the light now. They didnt have probable cause because no crime had been committed and I could have respectfully denied then to see my ID and any other question. I was a bit nervous and I thought that showing them ID would some how make this more easy on us all. But I was wrong.

    I have educated my girlfriend on the searching and she understands... I hope. Do you suggest going to their local department and asking for the officer in charge or the sherriff?

    Seriously thanks again for the play by play, ill study them some more so I know how to handle the situation better if it happens again. Thanks again.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    190

    Post imported post

    The fact they admitted they knew it was legal and still harrassed you and tried to get you to quit brings the following law into play on your end:

    2921.45 Interfering with civil rights.

    (A) No public servant, under color of his office, employment, or authority, shall knowingly deprive, or conspire or attempt to deprive any person of a constitutional or statutory right.

    (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of interfering with civil rights, a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    Don't let this type of behavior go unchecked.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    This is getting interesting. Guess its off to the sheriff monday. Oh yea I forgot about this. He asked me what kind of car I drive. I asked why and he said he got a call a few days ago about a guy with a gun around where I live. So i told him but I probably shouldnt have. Oh well, I dont do illegal things any way so im not too worried.

    And FYI, A first shirt is a first sergeant. What he does is basically if any person in the squadron gets for example a DUI or goes to jail or messes up really bad at work. They have to talk to the first shirt. Hes basically the daddy of the squadron. But I called him already and informed him of whats up and hes cool about it.

    The officer also told me to talk to my commander on what he thinks about this. I dont think he understood that me OCing has nothing to do with me being in the military. He kept bringing up military stuff that had no relavance in the situation at hand.

  13. #13
    Regular Member reefteach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    Interesting story. Thanks. Here are my ideas:

    Sterile carry (open carry with no ID) on foot is possible in OH. But if you get in a car, you need a CHL, or need to carry in accordance with federal transportation guidlines:empty, locked container, separate from ammo.



    As for the ID, in OH you must at least tell them name, address, and DOB, IF suspected of being involved in, or witnessing a crime. You were doing neither:

    2921.29 Failure to disclose personal information.

    (A) No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:

    (1) The person is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a criminal offense.

    (2) The person witnessed any of the following:

    (a) An offense of violence that would constitute a felony under the laws of this state;

    (b) A felony offense that causes or results in, or creates a substantial risk of, serious physical harm to another person or to property;

    (c) Any attempt or conspiracy to commit, or complicity in committing, any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section;

    (d) Any conduct reasonably indicating that any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section or any attempt, conspiracy, or complicity described in division (A)(2)(c) of this section has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

    (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of failure to disclose one’s personal information, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

    (C) Nothing in this section requires a person to answer any questions beyond that person’s name, address, or date of birth. Nothing in this section authorizes a law enforcement officer to arrest a person for not providing any information beyond that person’s name, address, or date of birth or for refusing to describe the offense observed.

    (D) It is not a violation of this section to refuse to answer a question that would reveal a person’s age or date of birth if age is an element of the crime that the person is suspected of committing.
    However, if you intend to show ID, as you implied, may I suggest giving them a scanned and printed copy so that they don't try to hold your ID hostage while they berate you. That way you can give the neccesary info quickly, and walk away.
    I think they can take a picture of whomever they wish, because you are in public. But I think it is a very curious departmental procedure that should be looked into. You definately don't have to pose for it, or even look at the camera.

    Never consent to a search for any reason is a pretty good rule of thumb. If they were supposed to be looking someplace, they wouldn't need permission. They will never find anything that can help you, so it is a waste of time and liberty.

    Even if you had a CHL, you would not have to show it or tell the officer you have one if you are on foot:

    2923.126 Duties of licensed individual.

    (A)...

    If a licensee is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun at the time the officer approaches, the licensee shall promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the licensee while stopped that the licensee has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the licensee currently is carrying a concealed handgun; the licensee shall not knowingly disregard or fail to comply with lawful orders of a law enforcement officer given while the licensee is stopped or knowingly fail to keep the licensee’s hands in plain sight after any law enforcement officer begins approaching the licensee while stopped and before the officer leaves, unless directed otherwise by a law enforcement officer; and the licensee shall not knowingly remove, attempt to remove, grasp, or hold the loaded handgun or knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by touching it with the licensee’s hands or fingers, in any manner in violation of division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code, after any law enforcement officer begins approaching the licensee while stopped and before the officer leaves.
    If you are open carrying on foot, you are not carrying a concealed handgun, so you don't need to to say "Officer,I am carrying a gun" because that should be painfully obvious.
    I think that a cop telling a military person that he can't be armed is hilarious.



    BTW- I grew up in Beavercreek, went to WSU for few years, and worked at the county pool next toFairborn Hgh Shool.



    You might also consider directing him to this article from Police Chiefs magazine:

    http://policechiefmagazine.org/magaz...ssue_id=122005




  14. #14
    Newbie cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,335

    Post imported post

    bangelo wrote:
    They didnt have probable cause because no crime had been committed and I could have respectfully denied then to see my ID and any other question.
    Not necessarily so. Ask if you are stopped (legally detained) and for what violation. Many states vehicle codes regulate pedestrians along the roadway. Not that you were in violation of one but I use the VC to stop peds on occasion. If they don't have ID, gang members and felons often walk "sterile" (no ID), I can arrest pending ID verification. I don't know if Oh. has this or not. Just be sure not to jay walk, litter, spit, or anything else that could give police PC to stop and cite or arrest you at their will if they want to make a point and discourage your OCing.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    Lots of good information guys, I read every link and comment submitted. Good info. Now I remember why I didnt want to become a lawyer. hehe So im going to paraphrase here. LEO stops me while OCing. We got a call from some one with a gun. Yes sir must be me. Am I free to leave since no crime has been committed? Yes have a good day.

    or

    Am I free to leave?
    No not yet.
    Am I being detained?
    No but I need to ask you questions.

    What happens then? Obviously im being detained right? So can they detain me even if I have not committed a crime?

  16. #16
    Regular Member reefteach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    It is my understanding that if you are not being detained, you may leave. Here is an interesting case recently where a guy in OH refused to show his ID and was charged with a crime. The charges were (of course) dropped. http://www.michaelrighi.com/2007/09/

    If they want to ask you questions, you do not need to answer. If you are not answering, why stick around? A waste of time and liberty again.

    Sometimes when they say you are not being detained, but they are conducting an investigation, they have your ID in a squad car and you feel you may not leave; Hence my suggestion for paper copies.



    Sooooo. They may not keep you from moving freely, unless they are detaining you. They may not detain you unless they have articulable facts which give them reasonable suspicion to conduct the Terry Stop. IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer). But this is my understanding of the law in OH.



    As far as CATO's comments go. If they did not catch you breaking a law, they have no business stopping you. CATO, I know this is exactly what you were saying, but just a different way of looking at it.

    BTW- Anyone have some good Danbus links for Bangelo? OH has similar laws to VA.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,327

    Post imported post

    He even asked what my first shirts name was so I guess now i am going to get a call from him.
    You surely had no obligation to divilge this information at that point, did you?


  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    245

    Post imported post

    @reefteach: Thanks for your input. I'm glad Mr. Righi was kind enough to publish what happened to him.

  19. #19
    Regular Member reefteach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    511

    Post imported post

    A small comment here. The statewide preemption of OC is 9.68, not 9.86 :

    9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.

    (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.

    (B) In addition to any other relief provided, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person, group, or entity that prevails in a challenge to an ordinance, rule, or regulation as being in conflict with this section.

    (C) As used in this section:

    (1) The possession, transporting, or carrying of firearms, their components, or their ammunition include, but are not limited to, the possession, transporting, or carrying, openly or concealed on a person’s person or concealed ready at hand, of firearms, their components, or their ammunition.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    kparker wrote:
    He even asked what my first shirts name was so I guess now i am going to get a call from him.
    You surely had no obligation to divilge this information at that point, did you?
    No i didnt have to tell him anything. But my First shirt is a good guy and i knew he would be on my side. So if he does get a call he will not care and he might even give the guy some crap about the whole thing too.

    You gotta remember I was nervous and i really didnt even think about those kind of things untill i got home. 20/20 hindsight.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    BIG SHAFE wrote:
    ...
    Search for Dan Sayres (Ohio incident)...
    I believe his last name is Sayers.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    245

    Post imported post

    Yes, my last name is spelled Sayers. That would be a bad example. For starters, it involved police pointing a full auto weapon at somebody during a felony stop outside their jurisdiction. The other being that because of that, tensions were high and demeanors were not optimum. I stood up for myself better than most would've under the circumstances, but I think one is better off learning from David Ridley's video that I linked to than mine.

    bangelo wrote:
    You gotta remember I was nervous and i really didnt even think about those kind of things untill i got home. 20/20 hindsight.
    Totally understandable. But you're mindful of that and willing to learn and that's the best any of us can do that are actually there


  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    Ah yes, ive watched both videos and have taken notes, sorry for all the things that happened to you Dan.

    I remember reading about an open carry walk in colombus a while ago but I cant find the link for the life of me. any one know about these walks? is there another one scheduled in the near future?

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,732

    Post imported post

    Notice that this was passed in to law in 2006. The ACLU wants to challange this statute as unconstitutional. And it is. The 1st amendment to the US constitution, right to speak also gives you the right to not speak. What was the crime?

    2921.29 Failure to disclose personal information.
    (A) No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:
    (1) The person is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a criminal offense.
    (2) The person witnessed any of the following:
    (a) An offense of violence that would constitute a felony under the laws of this state;
    (b) A felony offense that causes or results in, or creates a substantial risk of, serious physical harm to another person or to property;

    (c) Any attempt or conspiracy to commit, or complicity in committing, any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section;
    (d) Any conduct reasonably indicating that any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section or any attempt, conspiracy, or complicity described in division (A)(2)(c) of this section has been, is being, or is about to be committed.
    (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of failure to disclose one’s personal information, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
    (C) Nothing in this section requires a person to answer any questions beyond that person’s name, address, or date of birth. Nothing in this section authorizes a law enforcement officer to arrest a person for not providing any information beyond that person’s name, address, or date of birth or for refusing to describe the offense observed.
    (D) It is not a violation of this section to refuse to answer a question that would reveal a person’s age or date of birth if age is an element of the crime that the person is suspected of committing.
    Effective Date: 04-14-2006

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13

    Post imported post

    So I got a call from my First shirt today and he told me that he talked to the police that detained me the other day. He asked them if I was breaking any laws and they said no, but that I could get in trouble for inducing panic/public disturbance. So I looked up the laws on it and that unless I do something threatining that it wouldnt qualify. I guess my question is, can the police turn something im doing legally into something illegal? Thats like me saying every time I see Hillary Clinton on TV she should be arrested for my disturbance.

    Any help on this? Has any one ever gotten arrested for inducing panic while OCing? I printed all the laws out and im carrying them in my wallet from now on.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •