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Thread: Hey! I've get an agenda and am on a vendetta!

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    Walking about town today, I decided in light of my recent adventures with the OPD, that while Lt. Wilson had a clear understanding that I was engaged in legal behavior, I was unsure if other cops had understood that message. So I decided to make a phone call and kinda say "how do ya do" and "this is how I see things." As I decided I could not trust the reaction of other officers, and did not know of anyone to call in a supervisory level to establish the facts of OC if needed. I called dispatch and they took my name and phone number.

    A Sgt. called me back, I had no chance to write down his name, (my bad I know...)

    I had initially walked over to the police station but it was closed for business hours and I decided if I might as well call and ask for a supervising officer so I walked off.

    The Sgt. had seen me at the station so I guess I might as well hung around and used the wall phone.

    I introduced myself and my recent history. He was familiar (at least from the OPD's point of view) of my recent encounter. I suspect Lt. Wilson either officially or through "the grapevine" explained the incident. The Sgt. fell back again on the old "causing alarm" bs. The OPD seem to think that the simple act of a disturbed citizen is sufficient cause. I tried to explain to the good Sgt. what was actually the case. He got a bit hostile and asked if I called "just to argue". I explained no, I had called to ensure my safety and well being while exercising my constitutional rights and to ensure that there would be no problems with the OPD at any time.

    This is where I was accused of having an agenda, a cause and a vendetta! I suspect this is the viewpoint of the OPD. He asked "why I can't just carry normally?"! Hmmm.... throughout history OC has been "normal" and CC has been "abnormal". This of course is why we need a permit to CC and none to OC. Not that I think a permit to CC is right either.

    The Sgt. then explained that he too, is a gun owner, grew up with guns, hunted with his father, etc... and that he is concerned that my actions may cause lawmakers to take notice and hurt gun owners in this state! Wow! I had no idea I was that influential!

    He said that "fortunately" he has never had to arrest someone who is OCing although he has responded to several calls.

    He also said "I gather your beef with us is that an officer put your gun in your bag. Look, he had to put it someplace so they could walk away before you reloaded. At the end of the day you know we all just want to safely go home to our families." This must be a stock line they are taught or something. I explained that he had the incident misunderstood, but since that was not the main reason I was talking to him, I will let internal affairs handle that. I repeated that I just wanted to kinda introduce myself, sound out the waters and make it clear that I will exercise and enjoy my rights as I see fit.

    This was an interesting call as it really shows the opinion of the OPD outside of a plainclothes Lt. The Sgt. is an older man and sounds like he's been around awhile. They seem to think anyone OCing is out to make a point and is doing it for the attention.

    I thanked him for his time and opinions and ended the call.

    The bugs the heck out of me. I can get Lt. Wilson to admit that I am breaking no laws nor reasonably causing alarm. Rank and file fuzz think I'm a kook and have no clear understanding of the law.

    I am going to try and speak with the Chief Monday morning. This is getting out of hand. I don't think I hurt my cause with brief phone call. I honestly distrust the OPD to act in a proper manner when I am OCing, which is why I made the call. Sadly my suspsicions were confirmed.

    I asked him why Seattle PD never give me this grief, why I can walk through the Pike Place Market OCing and never have more than a brief "how are you doing sir" and maybe a brief exchange of words, how I can walk around Lynnwood when I go there and have no problems, etc...

    These guys are living in a fantasy world, and a dangerous one. Now that they have labled me as having a vendetta or whatnot I am worried. Monday morning, Chief of Police, Mayor's Office and City Attorney.

    Will be off and online today...

    Steve



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    Based on the details and the tone of thecontact described in this thread I think you're hurting your cause. Making a call to "kinda introduce" yourself does seem to simply be intended "just to argue."

    Your command of details, btw, appears limited by selectivity. You got a bunch of details regarding what was said...yet you couldn't get the sgt.'s name.

    Good luck.

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    You need to remember the Olympia is aextremely liberalareain this state (Evergreen State College is an example) and the copsin Olympia and Thurston Countyare for some reason more worried about appearances than enforcing the law, same goes for the city and county leaders.

    I'm working on the Shelton Police and Mason County SheriffsOffice (MCSO)at this time. Shelton just wants to ignore me (that ain't gonna work) and MCSOtraining Sgt. saysthey leave it up to the individual officer to decide, that ain't gonna get it either. Up until nowI have not gone to the new Sheriff, but since I know him personally, I am going that route now.

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    HankT wrote:

    Your command of details, btw, appears limited by selectivity. You got a bunch of details regarding what was said...yet you couldn't get the sgt.'s name.

    Good luck.
    No I did get his name, but I have this habit of not remembering names unless I see them written down. Sadly I did not have a chance to write it down. The rest of the call went as described. The Sgt. while gruff was a decent enough person to talk with, and I would probablly enjoy drinking a beer with him.

    One conversation I had with Lt. Wilson he told me that while he understands I am a law abiding citizen, that if I continued to OC I would probably get to know all the downtown cops. Since the way I have been meeting downtown cops lately has revolved around "please stand up, put your hands behind your head and interlace your fingers" I thought I could circumvent this somewhat unpleasant experience a bit. Lt. Wilson told me that they have something like 70 sworn officers and he could not tell them all I am a "good guy".

    I went out of my way NOT to argue case law with the Sgt. I told him I was well acquainted with the laws and case laws regarding OC when he asked. I said I was trying to ensure my safety and well being by talking to another officer outside of Lt. Wilson and any staff commonly available on weekdays. I did this. Two officers in a supervisory position are acquainted with my posistion. One officer works business hours, and the other works weekends. It seems simply stating that I had been working with Lt. Wilson was sufficient, and I will use this if there is a future incident. I will ask for a couple of names of officers in supervisory situations I can contact day, night or weekend if there is a problem.

    As much as I don't want to, I believe I will have to accept there may be some more unpleasant experiences, and I do not want any of them to involve staring at gun muzzles or wearing handcuffs. I do not see it as hurting my cause to make myself peaceably known to a couple of cops. This may well influence how a strange cop on a dark night treats me.

    What bothers me, and why I made this post is the clear disregard the whole of the OPD, rank and file seem to have about OCing. I learned more in my little phone call with the Sgt. than I have with all of my conversations with Lt. Wilson, and what I learned bothers me to no great end.

    I am a salesman by profession which helps me negoiating anddealing with peopleand will continue making my pitch in a professional, firm and courteous manner to those who matter in this case.

    I am sorry you believe I was trying to start something and have a selective memory. Names do not stick well with me. Oh well. I need to carry a pen and paper for the little details.



    Steve

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    You need to remember the Olympia is aextremely liberalareain this state (Evergreen State College is an example) and the copsin Olympia and Thurston Countyare for some reason more worried about appearances than enforcing the law, same goes for the city and county leaders.
    That is exactly the tone I got from the good Sgt. and to a lesser degree from Lt. Wilson. Either Wilson is better educated, or has a firmer grasp on the concept, or having a face to face meeting helped.

    I believe the higher ups if nothing else are better at kissing ass. Every cop I have spoken with about this (four total, two at the stop, Wilson and the Sgt.) have shown a greater regards for appearances than the law. Three, excepting Wilson have tried to tell me that OC is illegal the minute someone freaks out about it.

    As I said, Monday morning The Chief, The Mayor, and The City Attorney. Probably what I should have done in the first place.

    I hope things go well in Mason County and Shelton, I am getting a good feel for the uphill battle you are dealing with.

    Steve

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    Interesting. They've hassled you because you open carry. Now you've hassled them because you open carry. I can't wait to see what happens next . . . .

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    deanf wrote:
    Interesting. They've hassled you because you open carry. Now you've hassled them because you open carry. I can't wait to see what happens next . . . .
    I think it may be a Danbus West thang.

    sv gonna be a star...



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    deanf wrote:
    Interesting. They've hassled you because you open carry. Now you've hassled them because you open carry. I can't wait to see what happens next . . . .
    You guys down your way never get hassled. Mainly because there is only about one cop per 1000 square miles.

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    HankT wrote:
    I think it may be a Danbus West thang.

    sv gonna be a star...

    properly it is sv_libertarian, which is the closest I could get on this board to S/V Libertarian, which of course designates the Sailing Vessel Libertarian, which is my boat and home, please if you want to dis ppl, please get their handles right

    Rather, Steve gonna make sure some @#&^% on the OPD is NOT going to stand him up again. Steve gonna be sure that the OPD be understandin' that he not be breakin' any dem lawz and dey know he know fuzz who be sayin' da same thing even tho he not like it.

    Steve gonna protect his rights.

    Gentlemen and flamers I will say this one last time. I have ONE person on the OPD I can reference to if there is a problem. This person and I have exchanged pleasant conversations and heated conversations. I have sent long and verbose messages as is my habit in writing and speech. He has responded in a minimal fashion as appears to be his habit in writing and speech. His job is to cover the ass of the OPD, not to give a rip about mine. However above all other things, and all other disagreements he has from the get go and continues to acknowledge the legality of my actions. I did not know if he had communicated this to other cops, nor do I know how they may react. I have had contact with FOUR OPD officers until today about this matter. I have exchanged words with three of them. Two of them were hassling me, the third of course is Wilson. I now know that if I get stood up again, I can turn to the cops and say "Look, Lt. Wilson says it's legal" and it appears they will now what I am talking about.

    I wanted to have another contact on my terms with the OPD, and got one.



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    sv_libertarian

    1 - are you saying that your personal boat is called "Libertarian" ?

    2 - If I had your aim, I might make up a little flyer with my photo, simply saying some facts: He OCs, he's a good guy, and OC is lawful.

    Then you could mail it or e-mail it to OPD.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    The Sgt. then explained that he too, is a gun owner, grew up with guns, hunted with his father, etc... and that he is concerned that my actions may cause lawmakers to take notice and hurt gun owners in this state!
    Wouldn't it be nice if the lawmakers would take notice and realize that it is not the legal gun owners that are causing all the problems today. Why not take some meaningful action like funding our corrections system fully? That way they can lock up those that need to be there rather than dumping them back on the streets because there is no space. Why some action to see that criminals that use gunsin comitting their crimes can't plea bargain this away. If they do plea bargain to a lesser offense they still have to serve the enhanced penalty for using a gun.


    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    What do you suppose the officer's response would be if you explained that you just want to get all the ducks in a row so that you, too can "go home to your family" without incident?

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    ne1 wrote:
    What do you suppose the officer's response would be if you explained that you just want to get all the ducks in a row so that you, too can "go home to your family" without incident?
    Police officers in cities like Olympia are still selling the Koolaid that says they can protect us and we don't need guns. That is, of course, until someone dies and then they dust off the Supreme Court Ruling that says police do not have the responsibility to protect. One thing that ALL Police departments want, almost more than money, is CONTROL!
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    amlevin wrote:
    ne1 wrote:
    What do you suppose the officer's response would be if you explained that you just want to get all the ducks in a row so that you, too can "go home to your family" without incident?
    Police officers in cities like Olympia are still selling the Koolaid that says they can protect us and we don't need guns. That is, of course, until someone dies and then they dust off the Supreme Court Ruling that says police do not have the responsibility to protect. One thing that ALL Police departments want, almost more than money, is CONTROL!
    Ain't that just the ever lovin' truth and from Brooklyn no less.

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    amlevin wrote:
    One thing that ALL Police departments want, even more than money, is CONTROL!
    Fixed that for you!

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    Snubber wrote:
    sv_libertarian

    1 - are you saying that your personal boat is called "Libertarian" ?

    2 - If I had your aim, I might make up a little flyer with my photo, simply saying some facts: He OCs, he's a good guy, and OC is lawful.

    Then you could mail it or e-mail it to OPD.
    1. Yes. Every boat I have ever owned, from the cabin cruiser back when I was ignorant of the joys of sail, to the one I currently own now is named "Libertarian".

    2. I should not have to make a flyer, but is a good idea. I am going to try and meet the Chief. Should not have wasted my time with a Lt. I usually don't deal with minions and underlings

    Thanks for the opinions.

    Steve

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    ne1 wrote:
    What do you suppose the officer's response would be if you explained that you just want to get all the ducks in a row so that you, too can "go home to your family" without incident?
    "Why don't you just carry normally like everyone else?"

    Yeah, I know, OC is normal. It's not the fact I am carrying a gun, but rather the way I do so that somehow makes me the freak. Next time I am going to carry donuts. Then I can toss them somewhere quick and run like heck while the cops go after their favorite food. Probablly get cited for "abuse to donut" or whatnot...

    Steve

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    ne1 wrote:
    What do you suppose the officer's response would be if you explained that you just want to get all the ducks in a row so that you, too can "go home to your family" without incident?
    "Why don't you just carry normally like everyone else?"

    Yeah, I know, OC is normal. It's not the fact I am carrying a gun, but rather the way I do so that somehow makes me the freak. Next time I am going to carry donuts. Then I can toss them somewhere quick and run like heck while the cops go after their favorite food. Probablly get cited for "abuse to donut" or whatnot...

    Steve
    Dude, please videotape that! Even better if you wait until the Cops crew is in town. You'd make youtube history.




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    Tomahawk wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    ne1 wrote:
    What do you suppose the officer's response would be if you explained that you just want to get all the ducks in a row so that you, too can "go home to your family" without incident?
    "Why don't you just carry normally like everyone else?"

    Yeah, I know, OC is normal. It's not the fact I am carrying a gun, but rather the way I do so that somehow makes me the freak. Next time I am going to carry donuts. Then I can toss them somewhere quick and run like heck while the cops go after their favorite food. Probablly get cited for "abuse to donut" or whatnot...

    Steve
    Dude, please videotape that! Even better if you wait until the Cops crew is in town. You'd make youtube history.


    My favorite cop quote, "Bad Cop, No Donut!"

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    Y'know, it occurs to me that "going home to one's family" isn't likely to be in LEO's job description. It simply IS NOT what they are being paid for. As a matter of fact they could very well be unemployed and stay home as much as they want to for all I care. (Then again, the family probably doesn't want them around all that much either.)

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    No I did get his name, but I have this habit of not remembering names unless I see them written down. Sadly I did not have a chance to write it down. The rest of the call went as described. The Sgt. while gruff was a decent enough person to talk with, and I would probablly enjoy drinking a beer with him.

    One conversation I had with Lt. Wilson he told me that while he understands I am a law abiding citizen, that if I continued to OC I would probably get to know all the downtown cops. Since the way I have been meeting downtown cops lately has revolved around "please stand up, put your hands behind your head and interlace your fingers" I thought I could circumvent this somewhat unpleasant experience a bit. Lt. Wilson told me that they have something like 70 sworn officers and he could not tell them all I am a "good guy".

    I went out of my way NOT to argue case law with the Sgt. I told him I was well acquainted with the laws and case laws regarding OC when he asked. I said I was trying to ensure my safety and well being by talking to another officer outside of Lt. Wilson and any staff commonly available on weekdays. I did this. Two officers in a supervisory position are acquainted with my posistion. One officer works business hours, and the other works weekends. It seems simply stating that I had been working with Lt. Wilson was sufficient, and I will use this if there is a future incident. I will ask for a couple of names of officers in supervisory situations I can contact day, night or weekend if there is a problem.

    As much as I don't want to, I believe I will have to accept there may be some more unpleasant experiences, and I do not want any of them to involve staring at gun muzzles or wearing handcuffs. I do not see it as hurting my cause to make myself peaceably known to a couple of cops. This may well influence how a strange cop on a dark night treats me.

    What bothers me, and why I made this post is the clear disregard the whole of the OPD, rank and file seem to have about OCing. I learned more in my little phone call with the Sgt. than I have with all of my conversations with Lt. Wilson, and what I learned bothers me to no great end.

    I am a salesman by profession which helps me negoiating anddealing with peopleand will continue making my pitch in a professional, firm and courteous manner to those who matter in this case.

    I am sorry you believe I was trying to start something and have a selective memory. Names do not stick well with me. Oh well. I need to carry a pen and paper for the little details.



    Steve
    Get one of those sneaky little digital recording devices. You could use it in you occupation to dictate notes and names as well.

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    Bashing cops isn't likely to get them on your side, and there is nothing to keep them from reading this forum.

    If they do something wrong, call them on it, and let other people know. But why not stick to the facts of the matter rather than opinions and insults?

    If "Officer So-n-So" acts like a Nazi, then fine, say he acted like a Nazi. But speculating about their family life is a bit bitchy-childish and doesn't do any of us much good.
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

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  23. #23
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    thebastidge wrote:
    Bashing cops isn't likely to get them on your side, and there is nothing to keep them from reading this forum.

    If they do something wrong, call them on it, and let other people know. But why not stick to the facts of the matter rather than opinions and insults?

    If "Officer So-n-So" acts like a Nazi, then fine, say he acted like a Nazi. But speculating about their family life is a bit bitchy-childish and doesn't do any of us much good.
    I agree. At least two on the OPD are familiar with OCDO, Lt. Wilson, and the Sgt. I spoke with Saturday. I suspect someone there is reading it right now. At the very least insulting family life is a bit crude. I will admit to a knee jerk laugh, but I know I wouldn't like someone talking badly of my family life.

    I have engaged in verbal sniping with cops before, and rather recently even, and sadly it gets neither side anywhere. Even exchanging unpleasantries is something I ususally regret doing later as all I do is stoop to their own level.

    If I haven't said it before, I would of course like to thank everyone that has chimed in and been supportive during all this crap.

    Steve

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    sccrref wrote:
    Get one of those sneaky little digital recording devices. You could use it in you occupation to dictate notes and names as well.
    I want to get a sneaky little recorder anyway to sneakily record cops who are not so sneakily trying to infringe on my rights...

    99% of my contact with customers though is wrapped up within a couple of minutes, and once a person says "sure" out comes the pen and order form. I always have pen and paper and work, and should really do so when not working...

    Steve

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    thebastidge wrote:
    Bashing cops isn't likely to get them on your side, and there is nothing to keep them from reading this forum.

    If they do something wrong, call them on it, and let other people know. But why not stick to the facts of the matter rather than opinions and insults?

    If "Officer So-n-So" acts like a Nazi, then fine, say he acted like a Nazi. But speculating about their family life is a bit bitchy-childish and doesn't do any of us much good.
    I agree. At least two on the OPD are familiar with OCDO, Lt. Wilson, and the Sgt. I spoke with Saturday. I suspect someone there is reading it right now. At the very least insulting family life is a bit crude. I will admit to a knee jerk laugh, but I know I wouldn't like someone talking badly of my family life.

    I have engaged in verbal sniping with cops before, and rather recently even, and sadly it gets neither side anywhere. Even exchanging unpleasantries is something I ususally regret doing later as all I do is stoop to their own level.

    If I haven't said it before, I would of course like to thank everyone that has chimed in and been supportive during all this crap.

    Steve
    I will disagree. If the copsdon't want to be called arrogant, ignorant storm troopers stomping on our Constitutional rights (State and Federal) along with violating the law themselves, then they shouldn't do it. If the cops are aware of the Internet and they should be, then they should know that every time they pull a boneheaded stunt and/or act like they don't have to follow the law or treat the very people they are suppose to be serving poorly or with a bad attitude; that it will end up on the Internet somewhere for all to see. Secrecy works in their favor not the peoples. If the copsare above being made fun of, thatwould pretty much prove anything said here about them here or else where is true. Besides that I was under the impression cops were suppose to have thick skins to do their jobs. But then that's my opinion, you cans can have your own of course.

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