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Thread: Incident with Virginia State Police- Details

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    Now that my complaint letters are done here are the details of my incident with two State troopers in September. I own a business here in Virginia and I'm currently opening another in North Carolina, so I'm back and worth often and frequently utilize the rest stops for brief naps if I feel myself getting a bit sleepy. September the 12th I was woken up by a flashlight tapping on the window of my mini-van and ordered to step out of the vehicle by two State troopers. Once I realized they were troopers I complied thinking something had happened at the rest stop. Upon getting out of my van I asked whatsthe problem? The trooper replied, " well we see you have a gun in the vehicle (I had iton the passenger seat right next to my leg) is it registered to you and do you have a permit ?I replied that's not illegal, a permit is not required for open carry and there is no registration of firearms in the Commonwealth of Virginia. To that she replied, "don't get smart with me, it may not be illegal but it's not very bright to have it where someone could break in and grab it". I found that arather ridiculous thing for one adult to say to another and replied, hey you woke me upfor no real reason. They demanded my license and I complied.I then asked for both of their business cards and shereplied, "No you are not entitled to my business card! " When she figured out that I was dialing #77 on my cell to ask for a supervisor to be sent over, she said I will write it down for you. She then started askingwhere are you headed, how long have you been here etc. I simplysaid I resent you illegally detaining me, waking me up without identifying yourselves (I never knew they were troopers until I put my glasses on as I had taken my contacts out) and attempting to infer that I had violated some gun law. I will not be answering any more questions,what you are doing hereis illegal . When the other trooper returned he said, " he doesn't have a a concealed carrypermit ( I had already advised them of that) . She then asked the other trooper " he is not a convicted Felon ? " She appeared tobe acting shockedrather poorly (bad actress & a lousy trooper). She then handed metheir names and badge numbers and the phone number of theirstation.

    My problem is they put us bothat risk the way they approachme. Their cars were parked across the lot. They could have pulled behind me and activated the safety lights and spot light, then I would have know right off they were troopers. Apparently they just walk the rest stop and peak in on folks sleeping. Weird and unnecessary.

    #2 There was zero reasonable articulable suspicion. Waking up a guy sleeping in his vehicle at a rest stop,just because he is armed is an reckless intrusion.

    #3 She was incredibly rude,arrogant and ignorant of firearms laws (or attempting to imply I had done something illegal). Law enforcement shouldn't be attempting to mislead citizens with respect to the laws just so they can illegal detain folks.

    Well we will see what the Superintendent of VSP and their professional standards division (internal affairs) has to say in response.



  2. #2
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    "Is it registered to you?" - Is thisVSP ignorance or aVSP technique? If you say no it is not registered, then thetrooper knows that you are ignorant of firearms laws, and may then take advantage ofyour ignorance. I am suspicious because this is not the first time that I have read about a VSP accusation of firearms violations where none existed. Wasn't there a similar reported encounter in VA Beach a while back? Documenting multiple incidents will also strengthen future complaints.

    "..it's not very bright to have it where someone could break in and grab it". hmmmm.... 3 options if you do not have a CHP - open carry, no carry or violate the law and conceal.

    In Virginia, when must someone in a carsurrender a drivers license to law enforcement? -If observed driving -if sitting inthe drivers seat with the ignition off- If sitting in the drivers seat with engine on (parked, but on to keep warm/cool), etc.?

    I agree that it is not reasonable to disturb your rest in a rest area just because you open carry. That being said, I don't think that anything will come of your encounter and complaint.I predict that the intrusion upon your rights will be balanced against the troopers duty to keep the rest area safe (BS I know but just watch.)
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Thundar wrote:
    In Virginia, when must someone in a carsurrender a drivers license to law enforcement? -If observed driving -if sitting inthe drivers seat with the ignition off- If sitting in the drivers seat with engine on (parked, but on to keep warm/cool), etc.?

    I agree that it is not reasonable to disturb your rest in a rest area just because you open carry. That being said, I don't think that anything will come of your encounter and complaint.I predict that the intrusion upon your rights will be balanced against the troopers duty to keep the rest area safe (BS I know but just watch.)
    While the VSPneeds training on gun laws just like the rest of the LEO's in this commenwealththe demanding a license may be because of intent to drive. It has happened wherepeople have been convicted of DUI while passed out in the drivers seat with their keys in the car with them. Something about the intent to drive I believe. Might be the same anytime you are in the drivers seat and have keys for said vehicle. Maybe a law enforcement type could shed a little light here.

    On sleeping, some rest areas have signs stating sleeping is not allowed.



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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    So. . .they were rude to you, and you didn't agree with the way they approached you.

    I was honestly expecting this to be more "juicy."

    compared to other reports we've had of late. . .you my friend got off easy!!

    According to your own account of events: They didn't try to search your car, or trick you into giving consent, you weren’t placed in handcuffs, didn’t have weapons drawn on you, they didn’t even take your gun off you.

    The reason they snuck up on you was to see if they could observe any illegal activity going on inside of your car. Adult male with his eyes closed, head back. . .they wanted to see if there was another male with his head on your lap. Rest Stops are notorious homosexual male pick up spots.

    As for the attitude you got from the cutey on duty. . .that is typical of the civil servants in Virginia. They run everybody an attitude, no more so then when you are armed because they. . .like many others are conditioned by society to believe that only three flavors of people carry firearms. Police, Military and Bad guys. They feel that officer safety ALWAYS trumps average Joe safety.

    Not saying that you were in the wrong or they in the right. Far from it. Where I'm from, we don't allow the hied help to address us like that and I would have said as much myself and demanded their supervisor too, but in comparison to recent stories from Dan. . .you actualy had a decen encounter! (which is sad when you think about THAT being conidered "decent")
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Robert A. Heinlein, 'Beyond This Horizon'
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
    We citizens well know this. It is time the 'First Class citizens' learned it too.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA/GOP *******

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    Did you have a recording device going?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    To record his snoring?

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    cato wrote:
    To record his snoring?
    I should'a seen that one coming.

    Nooooo. To turn on once he realized it was the police who were knocking on his window.

    I'm really just trying to figure out if the VSP'ers can try to wiggle out of it. I think, based on what we've read here at OCDO, that the absence of a recording device gives the officers lattitude to deny, lattitudeoften taken.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
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    I'm surprised he didn't reach for his gun! And yes without proof it will be hard for one to disprove two. But that shouldn't stopone fromcomplaining.

    I'd like there to be a national or state number that OCers, and all liberty supporters,could call like Poc411 in NH and then place their phones on speaker. Maybe a line connected to a computer that would save the calls for later retrieval if needed. The caller could then pay a fee for theretrieval by providing the date and time of the call etc... This would help pay for the system.

    Recently, there was a student in CA who was illegally searched by police for a concealed firearm after it was reported he was on a "pro-gun" web site at college. At some point during the detention he called a voice mail number and kept the phone on speakerthereby covertly recording part of the detention.

    I'm not computer savvy but someone should be able to make this work with little initial investment. It would be a great service that VCDL could provide. Members could put the number on speed dial or maybe in the "1-emergency" position to provide quick recording with the phone then putdiscreetly on speaker. This would also keep the evidence (recorder) from accidentally falling "off the truck".
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    cato wrote:
    SNIP
    1. And yes without proof it will be hard for one to disprove two. But that shouldn't stopone fromcomplaining.

    2. It would be a great service that VCDL could provide.
    1. Agreed. Even if a complaint can't be proven, just the fact that one was made will make a little tyrant think twice before he gets a second one. Also, I think a complaint, or perhaps the fact thata complaint was made, ends up in the officer's personnel file, even if unproven?

    2. You're just trying to get even for us Right Coast guys roping you into posting bail for Hawkflyer on his Arizona trip.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
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    cato's question:

    The hypotenuse on one triangle is concave and the other is convex. Between the two there is enough difference to make up one block. Right now I have several shots of Knobb Creek on board and can’t figure how to get the extra space thus generated into the middle of the triangle.

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    Don't remember where the heck I was going with this reply, so here is a random pic from my hard drive:



  13. #13
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    Assuming the background grid is consistent, side a and side b seem to be equal. But close observation to the intersection of line c with the corners of the grid blocks will show a difference in area covered. Of course I no longer play with triangles and bourbon and the internet can highjack a thread before you can say, “ iah no my rites, officcrer”

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    FogRider wrote:
    Don't remember where the heck I was going with this reply, so here is a random pic from my hard drive:

    I was wondering why this photo bothered me, then I realized that I've never seen a Stormtrooper costume with boobs and platform shoes, before...

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    FogRider wrote:
    Don't remember where the heck I was going with this reply, so here is a random pic from my hard drive:

    I was wondering why this photo bothered me, then I realized that I've never seen a Stormtrooper costume with boobs and platform shoes, before...
    Can't say it bothers me :celebrate

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    Thats cause Stormtroopers are all clones-> All men, all the same height, and they all look like Boba Fett.

    On topic
    rude cop - no, thats just not possible.
    I agree that the way they approached was not very good, if just a guy, with a Glock was easily startled, someone might have ended up shot, probably him.

  17. #17
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    I don't feel like being verbose tonight, so here it goes. Good job at holding your ground...I would have jumped for my gun as soon as someone woke me up. It's good that you didn't considering what they might have done if they saw you do that. There attitude and actions were wrong, morally and legally. It was a violation of your rights, even if it wasn't as severe as others have been. It's weird that someone should mention a phone number to call and record things, since I was JUST thinking about that idea yesterday. Oh, and that stormtrooper is hot. The end.

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    She replied, "don't get smart with me..."

    It is obvious she did not know the laws and you did. You were smarter then she was when it came to gun laws. She told you not to be.

    Enjoyed hearing "Is it registered to you?" and "He is not a convicted felon?"

    Geezz!!!!



  19. #19
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    DreQo wrote:
    I don't feel like being verbose tonight, so here it goes. Good job at holding your ground...I would have jumped for my gun as soon as someone woke me up.
    Hmmm, that means you would probably have been shot up.

    It's actually a bad strategy to reach for a gun when some troopers are knocking on your car window...

    Very foolish, regardless of the preceding events...



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    HankT wrote:
    DreQo wrote:
    I don't feel like being verbose tonight, so here it goes. Good job at holding your ground...I would have jumped for my gun as soon as someone woke me up.
    Hmmm, that means you would probably have been shot up.

    It's actually a bad strategy to reach for a gun when some troopers are knocking on your car window...

    Very foolish, regardless of the preceding events...
    Agree with Hank..... Reaching for a gun without first identifying who is at the window can get you shot. You better look and see if you can see a badge first. If you do... FREEZE!!! Then make sure it is not a CWP badge.



    Hank.... there are some people here that are just not that bright. (Excluding you and me)

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    If sleeping OCers would just post their name, birth date and firearm serial number on a card on the dashthe concerned Leos could make sureyou arenot a convicted felon without wakingyouup!

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    cato wrote:
    If sleeping OCers would just post their name, birth date and firearm serial number on a card on the dashthe concerned Leos could make sureyou arenot a convicted felon without wakingyouup!
    This is true.....

    I know that when I am sleeping on duty.. I do not want to be woke up by citizens.

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  24. #24
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    FogRider wrote:
    Don't remember where the heck I was going with this reply, so here is a random pic from my hard drive:

    Hmmn, I feel myself being pulled over to the dark side....

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    I wouldn't have filed complaints had they had handled it a bit better. I believe some officers are so enraged by citizens carrying arms that they just lose all perspective and start "making itup as they go along". I once had a Prince William County officer tell me that "carrying a load gun in your car is felony, mandatory 5 years in prison. It has to be unloaded and in a locked case".When I told him that was incorrect, he started saying he couldtake me to jail right now.When I said "call a supervisor right now please, or I'm calling Chief CharlieDeane at home right now. He is a customer of mine (as I start paging through my daytimer phone directory)." Two of his three backers then stepped in and corrected him. The officer was right out of the academy so I just let it go. We all do stupid things when we are young and just starting out. I remember telling one of my best customers Merry Christmas. She was Jewish, and very offended. Probably still is. I don't know because she is now someoneElse's best customer.

    That State Trooper is another story. She has been with VSP 22 years. A Friend of mine that runs a litigation support business (process server/financial investigations etc.) ran her. She is old enough to know better.




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