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Thread: Micro stamping ammo

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    This has the potential of driving up the cost of semi autos and with no real benefit other than restricting gun sales and further depriving citizens of their 2nd Amend rights.

    http://www.newsmax.com/us/California.../15/40907.html

    http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/S.../14/40794.html

    "every semiautomatic handgun sold in California will have to "microstamp" each bullet cartridge in two locations whenever it is fired." How? Firing pin is one, what is the second - hadn't heard of this twist before. This is a major joke!

    The governor had vetoed similar legislation last year, but this year Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama drew attention to it, saying Schwarzenegger would compound the immigration problem if he vetoed it. What is this about? How does microstamping have anything to do with immigration?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Get ready for the antis to push this in other anti states, and if it is successful to push it nationally.

    Interesting that this technology has not been adopted by the gun banning nations. Why? "Good" intentions do not fix bad science. (Good from the anti point of view, no flame please)
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    Talk about double speak. This law has about as much to do with illegal immigration as do those feminine hygene products for that "not so fresh feeling" do.


    I am not a gunsmith or a weapons expert, but as a tech engineer, I know the more complex you make something, the more expensive and the less reliable they become.


    Rather than saddle the rest of the country with guns that cost more and probably not work as well, the gun manufacturers should just close up shop in Kalifornia. It would suck for the subjects of the People's Republic, but the gun manufacturers should especially not sell a single gun to any government entity in that state - police, sherrif, national guard, etc.



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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    It's another nick in the death by a thousand cuts.
    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Moved to news.

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    Regular Member Kelly J's Avatar
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    Governor of California Betrays Law-Abiding Gun Owners, Retailers and Hunters
    NEWTOWN, Conn. -- Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (R-CA) yesterday kowtowed to anti-hunting interest groups and the gun-ban lobby by signing into law legislation that will ban traditional ammunition and require firearms sold in California to include a patented, sole-sourced technology known as firearms microstamping -- a technology ballistics experts say is "flawed." The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) -- the trade association of the firearms industry -- has been the first to push-back on the governor, calling his decision to sign these two bills into law "myopic" and "reckless."

    "Governor Schwarzenegger has now effectively banned more firearms than Senators Kennedy, Feinstein and Schumer combined," said Lawrence G. Keane, NSSF senior vice president and general counsel. "The governor has proven to gun owners and sportsmen that he is just another liberal anti-gun Hollywood actor -- he just plays a moderate Republican on TV. Mr. Schwarzenegger has now exposed himself for what he really is, the most anti-gun and anti-sportsmen governor in America."

    Assembly Bill 1471 mandates the technology known as firearms microstamping, the process by which a firearm's make, model and serial number are micro-laser engraved on the tip of the firing pin so, in theory, that information would be imprinted on any cartridge casing fired in the gun. Governor Schwarzenegger signed AB 1471 into law despite having full knowledge of multiple studies proving microstamping to be unreliable. Among the research that the governor ignored was a recently released state-funded study by the University of California at Davis that called firearms microstamping a "flawed" technology and concluded that, "At the current time it is not recommended that a mandate for implementation of this technology in all semiautomatic handguns in the state of California be made. Further testing, analysis and evaluation is required." Independent research also demonstrated that criminals will be able to remove the laser engraving in mere seconds using common household tools.

    By signing the microstamping legislation Governor Schwarzenegger chose to disregard warnings that major firearms manufacturers would be forced to abandon the California market altogether rather than bear the astronomical costs associated with reconfiguring the manufacturing and assembly processes necessary for microstamping.

    NSSF has also pointed out that microstamping firearms would not impact criminals since, according to ATF, firearms used in crimes in California were originally sold on average almost 13 years before being recovered by the police. Firearms used in crimes are not newly sold guns, but old guns that have been in circulation on average for over a decade.

    "The governor's decision to mandate this unreliable technology is clearly one of family politics, not sound public policy," said Keane, alluding to Senator Ted Kennedy, the uncle of the governor's wife, who has announced plans to introduce a federal microstamping bill.

    The governor also signed into law legislation banning traditional ammunition in key hunting areas of the state. Assembly Bill 821, backed by anti-hunting extremists, was intended to save the California Condor from lead poisoning despite the fact that there is no conclusive scientific evidence that the birds are getting sick from ingesting ammunition fragments. Advising the Governor on this issue was Marty Wilson, his political advisor who entered a business relationship this year with the Audubon Society – an anti-hunting organization fighting to ban lead ammunition.

    "Governor Schwarzenegger's decision to ban lead ammunition has far reaching implications that extend well beyond California hunters," said Keane. "A study by the Responsive Management Company found that if a ban on lead ammunition were to become law 24 percent of hunters would hunt outside the state, hunt less or stop hunting altogether. This in-turn affects the retailers of hunting equipment, their employees and the small mom - and - pop businesses that run lodges and restaurants that hunters patronize."

    A ban on lead ammunition could cost 2,230 jobs, $15 million in state and federal income tax, $3.9 million per year in hunting license costs, $131 million a year in retail sales and $624,000 in federal excise tax money normally returned to California.

    "Clearly Governor Schwarzenegger is more concerned with helping the political agenda of his wife's uncle, Senator Kennedy, than in doing what's right for California," stated Keane. "To ban traditional ammunition without evidence and to mandate a flawed technology that criminals will laugh at could very well see every major firearms manufacturer abandon the California market. These are stunningly bad public policy decisions by at best a seriously ill-informed or at worst a rabidly antigun politician and which will do nothing to reduce crime or help the recovery of the condor. Today is a sad day for sportsmen, gun-owners, small business owners, firearms enthusiasts and indeed wildlife in the Golden State," concluded Keane.

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    The question that remains to be answered is what this will do to the use of revolvers in crime. Why push criminals who are in the market for new, legally purchased handguns (which there aren't many... they use older, stolen guns) to buy revolvers, which are more powerful, more reliable, and much less traceable since they don't eject casings? Oh, right, because 99.9999% of "people" who want to "control" guns know nothing about them.

    I have to say, being a third generation Austrian immigrant, I'm more proud of Adolf Hitler than Arnold Schwarzenegger at this point.

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    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    Trim the land of Commi-fornia off from the rest of the country, give the new island a push, and hope that the few pro gun folks can swim back to the mainland. Then maybe island of California willstruck on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia, and can be part of that insanity.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    dngreer wrote:
    Trim the land of Commi-fornia off from the rest of the country, give the new island a push, and hope that the few pro gun folks can swim back to the mainland. Then maybe island of California willstruck on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia, and can be part of that insanity.
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    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    Sorry, we'd be sacrificing a few nice beaches, multiple gangs, a growing homeless population, and Hollywood for the betterment of the country.

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    dngreer wrote:
    Trim the land of Commi-fornia off from the rest of the country, give the new island a push, and hope that the few pro gun folks can swim back to the mainland. Then maybe island of California willstruck on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia, and can be part of that insanity.
    As much as I like some of the people stuck in CA, I gotta say that it is a cancer on the rest of the nation (along with a couple other states).

    Too bad there's no practical way to get rid of it, unless you consider nuking it practical.
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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    I have to say, being a third generation Austrian immigrant, I'm more proud of Adolf Hitler than Arnold Schwarzenegger at this point.
    Wow, what ideological extremism will do for people....:P

    Adolph Hitler killed tens of millions of people. He killed upwards of 12 million in Holocaust camps. These were all defenseless and unarmed humans. He butchered them all.



    Schwarzenegger is just an actor and celebrity who made it big in politics. He hasn't done anything to compare to Hitler.

    Being "proud of Adolph Hitler" is an odius position to take, IMO.

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    HankT, you forgot one important point. Hitler's scar against humanity is in the past. Arnold is around and in office doing damage RIGHT NOW. Meaning we can still stop further damage from happening.

    Oh, and if Hitler could've used microstamping to jack up prices and de facto ban armament possession by poor Jews, he would've. It takes steps/directives like these to get to where he was and we allow them to go down nearly every day here and now in the US. I'd rather somebody be zealous than oblivious.

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    The question that remains to be answered is what this will do to the use of revolvers in crime. Why push criminals who are in the market for new, legally purchased handguns (which there aren't many... they use older, stolen guns) to buy revolvers, which are more powerful, more reliable, and much less traceable since they don't eject casings? Oh, right, because 99.9999% of "people" who want to "control" guns know nothing about them.

    I have to say, being a third generation Austrian immigrant, I'm more proud of Adolf Hitler than Arnold Schwarzenegger at this point.
    You must know that no self respecting criminal or gang banger for that matter is going to shoot/carry something asuncool as a revolver . Not to mention limiting themselves to 5 shots unless he wants to take a chance of shooting his gun off.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Demarest wrote:
    HankT, you forgot one important point. Hitler's scar against humanity is in the past. Arnold is around and in office doing damage RIGHT NOW. Meaning we can still stop further damage from happening.
    Amazing. You are equating or comparing what Schwarzenneger is doing today with what Adolph Hitler did in the past?

    Utterly amazing.

    Arnold never did this:




    or this:




    As far as I know, Schwarzennegar has never killed anyone. Hitler was a mass murderer of historic proportion. It is buffoonery to equate, compare or be "proud of Adolph Hitler."

    Godwin was right. But it was an easy call. :P

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    My concern is that the gun manufacturers will start doing this for ALL guns, meaning you won't be able to buy one without it. I hope not. I hope they make a special Kalifornia version and only sell it there.

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    Kelly J wrote:
    ...require firearms sold in California to include a patented, sole-sourced technology known as firearms microstamping ...
    I wonder how much money that company spent in lobbying. If any of you have studied Public Choice Theory, it says that when gov't regulates something, it rarely has to do with the public good. It usually has to do with gov't using their regulatory power to funnel money to their donors (which is why it's a good idea to limit government's regulating power...it's usually used as a way to give monopolies to politically connected people).

    One of the theories is called Baptists and Bootleggers. During prohibition, bootleggers supported the prohibition law (after all, it made them rich, the same way drug prohibition makes drug dealers rich). Prohibition destroyed their biggest compitors. Of course, the public face of the movement was baptists, because they supported it for "moral" reasons...which is better PR.

    I wonder if the Antis were the baptists and the company that has this technology are the bootleggers.

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    HankT wrote:
    These were all defenseless and unarmed humans. He butchered them all.
    Defenseless and unarmed... like most of the 33 million residents of California? Hitler also didn't personally butcher them, he encouraged others to do it. Like Schwarzenegger is encouraging gangs and other criminals in California to do to peaceable citizens through his ridiculous "gun control" legislation.

    By no means am I proud of either one of them. You see, there's this thing called "hyperbole"... I could explain it, but why would I want to deprive HankT of sharing his/her Holocaust picture collection? S/he hasn't even gotten to posting the dead baby pics yet.

    Anyhow... is there any data on how often semiautos versus revolvers are used in crimes? I'd be interested to see how popular the revolvers are with criminal types.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    These were all defenseless and unarmed humans. He butchered them all.
    Defenseless and unarmed... like most of the 33 million residents of California? Hitler also didn't personally butcher them, he encouraged others to do it. Like Schwarzenegger is encouraging gangs and other criminals in California to do to peaceable citizens through his ridiculous "gun control" legislation.
    Sad....rationalizing of a type like that is so clearly sad...

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Godwins law has been invoked. Way OT so stop it.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    HankT wrote:
    Demarest wrote:
    HankT, you forgot one important point. Hitler's scar against humanity is in the past. Arnold is around and in office doing damage RIGHT NOW. Meaning we can still stop further damage from happening.
    Amazing. You are equating or comparing what Schwarzenneger is doing today with what Adolph Hitler did in the past?
    Nope. If you read what's before you instead of just making stuff up, you'd know this. While you're spending energy on defending Hitler's notoriousness, you're failing to realize that we can criticize and obstruct the steps being taken here and now towards the same. Not the first time I've seen you go from A to G without the much needed steps of BCDEF.

    imperialism2024 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    These were all defenseless and unarmed humans. He butchered them all.
    Defenseless and unarmed... like most of the 33 million residents of California? Hitler also didn't personally butcher them, he encouraged others to do it. Like Schwarzenegger is encouraging gangs and other criminals in California to do to peaceable citizens through his ridiculous "gun control" legislation.
    Fantastic comparison I grasp the hyperbole. I also note the perspective

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    http://usacarry.com/index.php?option...7&Itemid=2





    Schwarzenegger signs microstamping bill into law






    Written by amddude

    Tuesday, 16 October 2007

    Governor of California Betrays Law-Abiding
    Gun Owners, Retailers and Hunters


    NEWTOWN, Conn. -- Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (R-CA) yesterday kowtowed to anti-hunting interest groups and the gun-ban lobby by signing into law legislation that will ban traditional ammunition and require firearms sold in California to include a patented, sole-sourced technology known as firearms microstamping -- a technology ballistics experts say is "flawed." The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) -- the trade association of the firearms industry -- has been the first to push-back on the governor, calling his decision to sign these two bills into law "myopic" and "reckless."

    "Governor Schwarzenegger has now effectively banned more firearms than Senators Kennedy, Feinstein and Schumer combined," said Lawrence G. Keane, NSSF senior vice president and general counsel. "The governor has proven to gun owners and sportsmen that he is just another liberal anti-gun Hollywood actor -- he just plays a moderate Republican on TV. Mr. Schwarzenegger has now exposed himself for what he really is, the most anti-gun and anti-sportsmen governor in America."

    Assembly Bill 1471 mandates the technology known as firearms microstamping, the process by which a firearm's make, model and serial number are micro-laser engraved on the tip of the firing pin so, in theory, that information would be imprinted on any cartridge casing fired in the gun. Governor Schwarzenegger signed AB 1471 into law despite having full knowledge of multiple studies proving microstamping to be unreliable. Among the research that the governor ignored was a recently released state-funded study by the University of California at Davis that called firearms microstamping a "flawed" technology and concluded that, "At the current time it is not recommended that a mandate for implementation of this technology in all semiautomatic handguns in the state of California be made. Further testing, analysis and evaluation is required." Independent research also demonstrated that criminals will be able to remove the laser engraving in mere seconds using common household tools.

    By signing the microstamping legislation Governor Schwarzenegger chose to disregard warnings that major firearms manufacturers would be forced to abandon the California market altogether rather than bear the astronomical costs associated with reconfiguring the manufacturing and assembly processes necessary for microstamping.

    NSSF has also pointed out that microstamping firearms would not impact criminals since, according to ATF, firearms used in crimes in California were originally sold on average almost 13 years before being recovered by the police. Firearms used in crimes are not newly sold guns, but old guns that have been in circulation on average for over a decade.

    "The governor's decision to mandate this unreliable technology is clearly one of family politics, not sound public policy," said Keane, alluding to Senator Ted Kennedy, the uncle of the governor's wife, who has announced plans to introduce a federal microstamping bill.

    The governor also signed into law legislation banning traditional ammunition in key hunting areas of the state. Assembly Bill 821, backed by anti-hunting extremists, was intended to save the California Condor from lead poisoning despite the fact that there is no conclusive scientific evidence that the birds are getting sick from ingesting ammunition fragments. Advising the Governor on this issue was Marty Wilson, his political advisor who entered a business relationship this year with the Audubon Society – an anti-hunting organization fighting to ban lead ammunition.

    "Governor Schwarzenegger's decision to ban lead ammunition has far reaching implications that extend well beyond California hunters," said Keane. "A study by the Responsive Management Company found that if a ban on lead ammunition were to become law 24 percent of hunters would hunt outside the state, hunt less or stop hunting altogether. This in-turn affects the retailers of hunting equipment, their employees and the small mom - and - pop businesses that run lodges and restaurants that hunters patronize."

    A ban on lead ammunition could cost 2,230 jobs, $15 million in state and federal income tax, $3.9 million per year in hunting license costs, $131 million a year in retail sales and $624,000 in federal excise tax money normally returned to California.

    "Clearly Governor Schwarzenegger is more concerned with helping the political agenda of his wife's uncle, Senator Kennedy, than in doing what's right for California," stated Keane. "To ban traditional ammunition without evidence and to mandate a flawed technology that criminals will laugh at could very well see every major firearms manufacturer abandon the California market. These are stunningly bad public policy decisions by at best a seriously ill-informed or at worst a rabidly antigun politician and which will do nothing to reduce crime or help the recovery of the condor. Today is a sad day for sportsmen, gun-owners, small business owners, firearms enthusiasts and indeed wildlife in the Golden State," concluded Keane.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And this is the reason why Europeans ( or any "transplants ) should NOT be able to run for ANY office in the U.S. I'm from Sweden myself By the way. He is a wreckless European that is one of the reason why the 2nd Amendment Rights are possibly heading out the window. Hillary and the other "candidates" don't need any help, they are been destructive enough towards our Constitutional Rights anyways.

    I'm ashamed to be called a European because of Aaannold.. I'm glad that I will be able to get my U.S citizenship in about a month and a half.

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