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Open Carry in Best Buy

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
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Invisible Mode
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Pa. Patriot wrote:
Penturner wrote:
... and that by asking me to leave HE would be violating MY rights as a citizen.

NO! That is 100% incorrect!

Your 2nd amendment rights do NOT trump private property rights.

What to do? Only thing you can do is complain and hope they want your business bad enough.

I agree with Pa. Patriot. Your 2A rights cannot trump property rights. That would be very unfair.

I would also add the (slim) possibility that good persuasive/logical/rational arguments, without threatening business loss, could convince a store owner/manager that it would be a good idea to not be prohibitive of OC (or CC).

After all, people who have been patronizing, say, Wal-Mart, can't really boycott Wal-Mart. Everybody knows that.
 

LEO 229

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Feb 21, 2007
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7,606
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USA
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HankT wrote:
Pa. Patriot wrote:
Penturner wrote:
... and that by asking me to leave HE would be violating MY rights as a citizen.

NO! That is 100% incorrect!

Your 2nd amendment rights do NOT trump private property rights.

What to do? Only thing you can do is complain and hope they want your business bad enough.

I agree with Pa. Patriot. Your 2A rights cannot trump property rights. That would be very unfair.

I would also add the (slim) possibility that good persuasive/logical/rational arguments, without threatening business loss, could convince a store owner/manager that it would be a good idea to not be prohibitive of OC (or CC).

After all, people who have been patronizing, say, Wal-Mart, can't really boycott Wal-Mart. Everybody knows that.
Same here.

I think it was kinda dumb to make such a statement to the manger about his "violating your rights."

He is NOT the government and is only a private citizen. You have NO RIGHTS AT ALL to carry on the property of another without their permission.

The best thing you can do in that situation is to be kind, say you were unaware, and leave without incident. Maybe then he will get a different attitude towards the matter and overlook it in the future. Your "bitching" will only justify his telling you go get out.
Just my opinion.....
 

PackininVB

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Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
285
Location
Back on the beach, , USA
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Penturner wrote:
Last night I was shopping in BEST BUY on Independence Blvd in Va Beach. After about 30 minutes I was approached by someone with a little badge that said "Gen Manager". UnfortunatelyI didn't get his name. Anyway, first he asked me if I was a LEO. When I replied in the negative, he told me that people with guns that are not LEO's are not allowed in the store. I advised him that State Law allows me to carry virtually wherever I want (with exceptions) and he had no signs on the door stating that firearms are prohibited, and that by asking me to leave HE would be violating MY rights as a citizen. He didn't care, and not wanting an altercation at the time (for several reasons) including the 80 year old neighbor that I was shopping with.

Question: doesanyone have a standard letter that you send to corporations for cases like this that quote chapter & verse of State law? How should I proceed?

Regards,
Larry Korn

I personnaly OCed at the Best Buy on independance, I was told by some clerk that i couldnt carry that in there. I asked him to get his manager, who told me the same thing, so i waited outside their door until my buddy was done shopping.

Later on i emailed their corporate office who said that they do not have a policy about guns in their stores and welcome anyone. Unfortunately you cant do much when the GM wants you out because it is still private property.
 

Eeyore

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Aug 25, 2007
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551
Location
the meanest city in the stupidest state
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Opsgear wrote:
Gangs are human too? Poverty, lack of self esteem, no family support, no jobs all led to joining the gang. ...
That's PC BS. :X Read John McWhorter's books (Losing the Race, Authentically Black, Winning the Race) to find out how our current urban deathscapes got that way.

I think Eric Cartman is right: most problems today can be traced back to "damn dirty hippies" :D
 

Penturner

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Aug 29, 2007
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11
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Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
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LEO 229 wrote:
HankT wrote:
Pa. Patriot wrote:
Penturner wrote:
... and that by asking me to leave HE would be violating MY rights as a citizen.

NO! That is 100% incorrect!

Your 2nd amendment rights do NOT trump private property rights.

What to do? Only thing you can do is complain and hope they want your business bad enough.

I agree with Pa. Patriot. Your 2A rights cannot trump property rights. That would be very unfair.

I would also add the (slim) possibility that good persuasive/logical/rational arguments, without threatening business loss, could convince a store owner/manager that it would be a good idea to not be prohibitive of OC (or CC).

After all, people who have been patronizing, say, Wal-Mart, can't really boycott Wal-Mart. Everybody knows that.
Same here.

I think it was kinda dumb to make such a statement to the manger about his "violating your rights."

He is NOT the government and is only a private citizen. You have NO RIGHTS AT ALL to carry on the property of another without their permission.

The best thing you can do in that situation is to be kind, say you were unaware, and leave without incident. Maybe then he will get a different attitude towards the matter and overlook it in the future. Your "bitching" will only justify his telling you go get out.
Just my opinion.....
I stand corrected regarding my comments to the Manager. I will however follow through and contact higher management.
 

sjhipple

Regular Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
1,491
Location
Concord, New Hampshire, USA
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Eeyore wrote:
Opsgear wrote:
Gangs are human too? Poverty, lack of self esteem, no family support, no jobs all led to joining the gang. ...
That's PC BS. :X Read John McWhorter's books (Losing the Race, Authentically Black, Winning the Race) to find out how our current urban deathscapes got that way.

Socialism destroys. Socialism in the inner city destroyed the inner city family (because a father was substituted with a welfare check and caring children were substituted with Social Security).It destroyed the inner city work ethic. It destroyed the inner city business climate. With it, it took the sense of community and togetherness.

Thanks, FDR and LBJ.:X

Can't wait to see what it does to medicine :quirky
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
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OC-Glock19 wrote:
W.E.G. wrote:
I think it is VERY unlikely that the cashier was MS-13.

Those guys DO NOT work retail.
Okay, so I jumped to conclusions. Time for me to... (eat crow)
There are many gangs using "13" as a symbol. The biggest group is the Mexican Mafia, aka la eme, because M is the 13th letter of the alphabet.

"13" doesn't signify any group on a national basis. It does denote local chapters, sub-groups, what-have-you, but not the larger group to which they belong. Gangs tend to be urban. "Urban" tends to be "downtown". "13th Street" is always "downtown" in any city of >100k population. Add in the "unlucky 13" factor, and you wind up with many local sets using "13" as an identifier.

No matter which group he might or might not be connected with, anyone who has "13" tattooed in the web of this thumb is definitely either a gang member, or wannabe.
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
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LEO 229 wrote:
HankT wrote:
Pa. Patriot wrote:
Penturner wrote:
... and that by asking me to leave HE would be violating MY rights as a citizen.

NO! That is 100% incorrect!

Your 2nd amendment rights do NOT trump private property rights.

What to do? Only thing you can do is complain and hope they want your business bad enough.

I agree with Pa. Patriot. Your 2A rights cannot trump property rights. That would be very unfair.

I would also add the (slim) possibility that good persuasive/logical/rational arguments, without threatening business loss, could convince a store owner/manager that it would be a good idea to not be prohibitive of OC (or CC).

After all, people who have been patronizing, say, Wal-Mart, can't really boycott Wal-Mart. Everybody knows that.
Same here.

I think it was kinda dumb to make such a statement to the manger about his "violating your rights."

He is NOT the government and is only a private citizen. You have NO RIGHTS AT ALL to carry on the property of another without their permission.

The best thing you can do in that situation is to be kind, say you were unaware, and leave without incident. Maybe then he will get a different attitude towards the matter and overlook it in the future. Your "bitching" will only justify his telling you go get out.
Just my opinion.....
A question for LEO 229.

What about if a police officer stops his vehicle at the curb in front of my house, or drives up onto my driveway, then gets out of the vehicle and approaches me on my property. Since this is my property, I assume I can tell him to get back into his vehicle, or back out on the street, until he disarms.. right? I mean, my prorperty rights supercede his authorization, and privilege, to enter my property.. is this correct.

This is not a smart-ass or trick question in any way. Just one which I have wondered about from time to time. For the record, I have a fine working relationship with our town's police and have only once in my life ever had an altercation with an officer. That was in Arlington and he was a motorcop and frankly, an a-hole. I won the verbal fight and I'm sure he didn't care for that, but too bad. All other encounters, which have been relatively few, have been respectful and uneventful.
 

LEO 229

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SouthernBoy wrote:
A question for LEO 229.

What about if a police officer stops his vehicle at the curb in front of my house, or drives up onto my driveway, then gets out of the vehicle and approaches me on my property. Since this is my property, I assume I can tell him to get back into his vehicle, or back out on the street, until he disarms.. right? I mean, my prorperty rights supercede his authorization, and privilege, to enter my property.. is this correct.

This is not a smart-ass or trick question in any way. Just one which I have wondered about from time to time. For the record, I have a fine working relationship with our town's police and have only once in my life ever had an altercation with an officer. That was in Arlington and he was a motorcop and frankly, an a-hole. I won the verbal fight and I'm sure he didn't care for that, but too bad. All other encounters, which have been relatively few, have been respectful and uneventful.


Never had anyone try to kick me off their property while conducting an investigation or traffic stop. I have had people pull into their driveway too during the stop.

Any person can park in front of your house at the curb on the highway. Your property stops at the edge of the sidewalk and you do not own the sidewalk or the curb. You are required by law to keep the sidewalk clear of snow in the winter. Go figure. But you cannot require people to disarm there.

Thestate code for trespassing identifiesthat the police can enter upon your land and remain if they are there for a lawful purpose. So you cannot force them to leave or disarm.

If you think about it... if someone beat up a spouse and the police show up to investigate... The homeownercould tell them to leave or have them charged for trespassing.


§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof,

after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof,

or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen,

or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued

pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.
 

SouthernBoy

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May 12, 2007
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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
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LEO 229 wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
A question for LEO 229.

What about if a police officer stops his vehicle at the curb in front of my house, or drives up onto my driveway, then gets out of the vehicle and approaches me on my property. Since this is my property, I assume I can tell him to get back into his vehicle, or back out on the street, until he disarms.. right? I mean, my prorperty rights supercede his authorization, and privilege, to enter my property.. is this correct.

This is not a smart-ass or trick question in any way. Just one which I have wondered about from time to time. For the record, I have a fine working relationship with our town's police and have only once in my life ever had an altercation with an officer. That was in Arlington and he was a motorcop and frankly, an a-hole. I won the verbal fight and I'm sure he didn't care for that, but too bad. All other encounters, which have been relatively few, have been respectful and uneventful.


Never had anyone try to kick me off their property while conducting an investigation or traffic stop. I have had people pull into their driveway too during the stop.

Any person can park in front of your house at the curb on the highway. Your property stops at the edge of the sidewalk and you do not own the sidewalk or the curb. You are required by law to keep the sidewalk clear of snow in the winter. Go figure. But you cannot require people to disarm there.

Thestate code for trespassing identifiesthat the police can enter upon your land and remain if they are there for a lawful purpose. So you cannot force them to leave or disarm.

If you think about it... if someone beat up a spouse and the police show up to investigate... The homeownercould tell them to leave or have them charged for trespassing.


§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof,

after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof,

or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen,

or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued

pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.
Yes, I knew about the probable cause concept, however I was just curious to see what would happen under other circumstances where that was no probable cause. Example. Suppose a police officer and a homeowner just do not like each other.. for whatever reason (no, I do not fall within this framework, but I do know someone who could). And the officer comes onto that person's property. I was just wondering what might be the outcome or result if the homeowner told the officer to remove himself from his property. Just curious.

I also am aware of sidewalks and community requirements to keep them cleared.

Thanks for your response.
 

sjhipple

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Joined
May 31, 2007
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1,491
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Concord, New Hampshire, USA
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SouthernBoy wrote:
What about if a police officer stops his vehicle at the curb in front of my house, or drives up onto my driveway, then gets out of the vehicle and approaches me on my property. Since this is my property, I assume I can tell him to get back into his vehicle, or back out on the street, until he disarms.. right? I mean, my prorperty rights supercede his authorization, and privilege, to enter my property.. is this correct.
You can kick an officer off of your propert, armed or not, if he doesn't have a warrant and is not there to detain or arrest you. The same way you can end a consensual investigation.
 

LEO 229

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USA
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SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes, I knew about the probable cause concept, however I was just curious to see what would happen under other circumstances where that was no probable cause. Example. Suppose a police officer and a homeowner just do not like each other.. for whatever reason (no, I do not fall within this framework, but I do know someone who could). And the officer comes onto that person's property. I was just wondering what might be the outcome or result if the homeowner told the officer to remove himself from his property. Just curious.

I also am aware of sidewalks and community requirements to keep them cleared.

Thanks for your response.
If he is not there in business and just stopped by to harass a neighbor... He can be asked to leave as you would do for any other citizen. The home owner can simply end the contact and go inside. There would be no reason for the officer to stay and he would eventually go. If not...call his supervisor.
 

SouthernBoy

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May 12, 2007
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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
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LEO 229 wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes, I knew about the probable cause concept, however I was just curious to see what would happen under other circumstances where that was no probable cause. Example. Suppose a police officer and a homeowner just do not like each other.. for whatever reason (no, I do not fall within this framework, but I do know someone who could). And the officer comes onto that person's property. I was just wondering what might be the outcome or result if the homeowner told the officer to remove himself from his property. Just curious.

I also am aware of sidewalks and community requirements to keep them cleared.

Thanks for your response.
If he is not there in business and just stopped by to harass a neighbor... He can be asked to leave as you would do for any other citizen. The home owner can simply end the contact and go inside. There would be no reason for the officer to stay and he would eventually go. If not...call his supervisor.
Thank you.

Once again, I wish to assert that I am in no way at odds with my local police, town, county, or state. This was just a question out of simple curiosity. Need to make sure that is understood amongst all.
 

LEO 229

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roscoe13 wrote:
I think we're getting a little off-topic here, unless you have a Best Buy on your property...
This can apply to those that have a business like.. Best Buy. The same rules would apply to the business owners.

This all started with a security guard at a business.
 

ChinChin

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Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
683
Location
Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
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deanf wrote:
and that by asking me to leave HE would be violating MY rights as a citizen.

Really? So there's no private property rights in Virginia?

Covered ground Dean. The OP already stated he was in error for making the statement, and acknowledged his mistake.

Let's not rub salt in the wound now.
 
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