NO AMMO AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun.

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NO AMMO AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun.

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Whats this thread title about? Did the ammo cause the guy to shoot himself? The title seems to insinuate that having ammo around while cleaning increases the risk of stupid people shooting themselves. So are you suggesting that when Ineed to clean my gun, I should unload it, collect all the ammo and take it somewhere else, andthen go back andclean my gun? Seems kinda silly to me. How about "NO STUPID AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun. That would have been a little more appropriate.

ilbob wrote:

or he could have been doing something else unsafe and came up with the cleaning story.

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+1. If I ever stupidly shot my gun with no good excuse, lord knows the first thing outta my mouth would be "I was just cleaning it and..." lol. Honestly, though, under normal circumstances while cleaning your handgun, when does your hand EVER go in front of the muzzle? I don't know about glocks, but to take apart my gun it takes BOTH hands...one below the frame and one on top of the slide. If he had shot himself in the leg that would be one thing, but his hand???

Anyway, if he did indeed make an honest (but still stupid) mistake, then that's too bad and I hope he gets better.

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DreQo wrote:

NO AMMO AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun.

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Whats this thread title about? Did the ammo cause the guy to shoot himself? The title seems to insinuate that having ammo around while cleaning increases the risk of stupid people shooting themselves. So are you suggesting that when Ineed to clean my gun, I should unload it, collect all the ammo and take it somewhere else, andthen go back andclean my gun? Seems kinda silly to me. How about "NO STUPID AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun. That would have been a little more appropriate.

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No, the stupid caused the negligence that caused the bullet to go through the hand. If you remove the stupid or the ammo from that chain, there would be no ND. I suppose you could do either.

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Wynder wrote:

DreQo wrote:

NO AMMO AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun.

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Whats this thread title about? Did the ammo cause the guy to shoot himself? The title seems to insinuate that having ammo around while cleaning increases the risk of stupid people shooting themselves. So are you suggesting that when Ineed to clean my gun, I should unload it, collect all the ammo and take it somewhere else, andthen go back andclean my gun? Seems kinda silly to me. How about "NO STUPID AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun. That would have been a little more appropriate.

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No, the stupid caused the negligence that caused the bullet to go through the hand. If you remove the stupid or the ammo from that chain, there would be no ND. I suppose you could do either.

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Uh huh. And if you remove the "gun" from a gun crime, then no crime will happen, right?

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Wynder wrote:

Figures it happened in Jersey.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071019/NEWS01/710190389

VINELAND An off-duty state trooper was taken to Cooper University Hospital in Camden on Thursday night after accidentally shooting himself in the hand.The trooper, whose name was not released, was cleaning a gun at home when it fired, said Sgt. Stephen Jones, a state police spokesman. He said the trooper is stationed on the Atlantic City Expressway.
The injury was not life-threatening, Jones said. Additional information about the incident was not available.

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Why is it that cops seem to have so many of these negligent discharges? They carry a gun for a living you'd think they'd be more familair with their weapons.

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Wynder wrote:

DreQo wrote:

NO AMMO AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun.

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Whats this thread title about? Did the ammo cause the guy to shoot himself? The title seems to insinuate that having ammo around while cleaning increases the risk of stupid people shooting themselves. So are you suggesting that when Ineed to clean my gun, I should unload it, collect all the ammo and take it somewhere else, andthen go back andclean my gun? Seems kinda silly to me. How about "NO STUPID AROUND When Cleaning Your Gun. That would have been a little more appropriate.

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No, the stupid caused the negligence that caused the bullet to go through the hand. If you remove the stupid or the ammo from that chain, there would be no ND. I suppose you could do either.

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lol How exactly do you remove "ammo" from a gun cleaning? Start with an unloaded weapon I suppose. I guess he just doesn't get to clean his loaded ones ever...

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HankT wrote:

Wynder wrote:

Figures it happened in Jersey.

VINELAND An off-duty state trooper was taken to Cooper University Hospital in Camden on Thursday night after accidentally shooting himself in the hand.The trooper, whose name was not released, was cleaning a gun at home when it fired, said Sgt. Stephen Jones, a state police spokesman. He said the trooper is stationed on the Atlantic City Expressway.
The injury was not life-threatening, Jones said. Additional information about the incident was not available.

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Why would Jersey have anything to do with it?

I gotta suspect it was the ole GLOCK technology of having to pull the trigger to field strip the gun. Man, that's got to hurt.

Of course, we must officiallyblame this on the antis or gun laws somehow....




dngreer wrote:

Stupid mistake. But I guess every one of us is only one human error, or a mental mistake away from looking just as stupid.

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Exactly. People do make errors. That's why I don't understand the rabid denunciation of things like handgun safeties or Condition 3 carry. Doesn't make any sense...

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Probably because only cops or criminals carry guns there.:lol:

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DreQo wrote:

lol How exactly do you remove "ammo" from a gun cleaning? Start with an unloaded weapon I suppose. I guess he just doesn't get to clean his loaded ones ever...

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Um... you take the ammo out of your gun and move it to a different location from the one you're working in before you begin to work.

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massltca wrote:

Wynder wrote:

Figures it happened in Jersey.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071019/NEWS01/710190389

VINELAND An off-duty state trooper was taken to Cooper University Hospital in Camden on Thursday night after accidentally shooting himself in the hand.The trooper, whose name was not released, was cleaning a gun at home when it fired, said Sgt. Stephen Jones, a state police spokesman. He said the trooper is stationed on the Atlantic City Expressway.
The injury was not life-threatening, Jones said. Additional information about the incident was not available.

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Why is it that cops seem to have so many of these negligent discharges? They carry a gun for a living you'd think they'd be more familair with their weapons.

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You actually answered your own question. Because they carry a gun for a living. If you are NEVER even near a firearm, then the probability of experiencing a ND or AD or malfunctionis very low. The more time you spend around firearms, the more chance you have of having one. Most LEOs are around firearms almost 24/7, and there's a whole lot of LEOs in the country, so the probability for a LEO to have an accident is much higher than for the average joe.

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

Wynder wrote:

HankT:

Ayep, XD's do. Lock the slide back, raise the release slide, ease the slide back and pull the trigger to remove the slide. Same thing with the Smith & Wesson Sigma. I'd think that most 'Safe Action' or 'Double Action Only' pistols of similar (Glock-like construction) would probably operate the same.

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Thank Heavens my 1911 doesn't have It.

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Yeah I like having a thumb safety, not that I have anything against Glocks, I just like single action weapons better.

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Wynder wrote:

DreQo wrote:

lol How exactly do you remove "ammo" from a gun cleaning? Start with an unloaded weapon I suppose. I guess he just doesn't get to clean his loaded ones ever...

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Um... you take the ammo out of your gun and move it to a different location from the one you're working in before you begin to work.

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So, by safely and habitually unloading and clearing my weapon before cleaning,and simply leaving the rounds on the table with me while I clean, I'm increasing the likelihood of a negligent discharge? Wrong. The possibility of the weapon firing becomes '0' when all rounds are removed from the weapon. The location of the ammo at that point is irrelevant. This officer failed to properly clear his weapon, whether he was cleaning it or just being stupid. That is where the problem lies. Not in the design of the handgun, not in the location of the ammo, but in the actions (or lack there of) of the person handling the weapon.

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DreQo wrote:

So, by safely and habitually unloading and clearing my weapon before cleaning,and simply leaving the rounds on the table with me while I clean, I'm increasing the likelihood of a negligent discharge? Wrong. The possibility of the weapon firing becomes '0' when all rounds are removed from the weapon. The location of the ammo at that point is irrelevant. This officer failed to properly clear his weapon, whether he was cleaning it or just being stupid. That is where the problem lies. Not in the design of the handgun, not in the location of the ammo, but in the actions (or lack there of) of the person handling the weapon.

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If you remove your loaded mag and place it on the table and, in the completion of your cleaning, replace that loaded magazine back in the weapon, thinking it may be empty, slide forward and hammer down, yes, there can be an ND.

The plain fact is that if there's no ammunition near your weapon, there is '0' chance it will go bang. If there is ammunition around in a magazine, the same can't be said -- it's the same reason why shooting competitions have a safe area where you're allowed to dry-fire and repair but are expressly prohibit the handling of magazines, regardless of whether or not they have rounds in them.

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Wynder wrote:

If you remove your loaded mag and place it on the table and, in the completion of your cleaning, replace that loaded magazine back in the weapon, thinking it may be empty, slide forward and hammer down, yes, there can be an ND.

The plain fact is that if there's no ammunition near your weapon, there is '0' chance it will go bang. If there is ammunition around in a magazine, the same can't be said -- it's the same reason why shooting competitions have a safe area where you're allowed to dry-fire and repair but are expressly prohibit the handling of magazines, regardless of whether or not they have rounds in them.

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Well here's your first issue. If you can get a magazine from the table and into the weapon w/o knowing or SEEING whether or not the magazine is loaded, then you don't need to be any where near a firearm PERIOD. If this is something you expect a person to do at any point, I would expect that you also have a floating fence around your house to protect you from flying pink elephants.

This statement is WRONG. The chance of the weapon firing DOES NOT change with the distance between the firearm and the ammo. The firearm can ONLY FIRE when there is ammo IN the firearm, period. With your logic, then you shouldn't drive after being in a room with alcohol, since theres a better chance that you're now intoxicated.

The first step of cleaning a firearm is to properly unload and clear said firearm.Only after cleaning is done do you performa function check with or w/o an EMPTY magazine. It is UP TO THE PERSON to do this properly. If the gun goes off, you failed before or after cleaning, not during. You could be in a room filled up to your neck with live rounds. If you ALWAYS CHECK THE CHAMBER then there wont be a problem.

Oh yeah, and just in case something malfunctions or you make a mistake (we're human, after all), they invented something called muzzle awareness. I sure hope YOU don't do a function check pointing at your hand....

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DreQo wrote:

Wynder wrote:

If you remove your loaded mag and place it on the table and, in the completion of your cleaning, replace that loaded magazine back in the weapon, thinking it may be empty, slide forward and hammer down, yes, there can be an ND.

The plain fact is that if there's no ammunition near your weapon, there is '0' chance it will go bang. If there is ammunition around in a magazine, the same can't be said -- it's the same reason why shooting competitions have a safe area where you're allowed to dry-fire and repair but are expressly prohibit the handling of magazines, regardless of whether or not they have rounds in them.

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Well here's your first issue. If you can get a magazine from the table and into the weapon w/o knowing or SEEING whether or not the magazine is loaded, then you don't need to be any where near a firearm PERIOD.

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So, you admit that it is possible to happen -- regardless of whether or not someone should be anywhere near a firearm or not. Look, you can do what you want -- I'm going to live by the dictum written by people who've been doing this far longer than you or I.

You can keep the ammo with you when you clean you gun and you'll KNOW it's unloaded and KNOW you won't accidentally slap a magazine into it that has a round. Take that risk. That's all you. I have two kids in the house and I won't.

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Yep, I admitted that it was as likely as being attacked by flying pink elephants. Good job ignoring the rest of what I said.

Anyway usually when I clean my carry gun I unload the mags as well so I can wipe them down good. So I guess having a pile of rounds in the corner of the table makes it more likely that my gun will randomly go off, huh?

Anyway if you have two kids in the house why do you have guns anyway?! Not only do guns explode when you put bullets too close to them, but they kill people when you're not looking and cause good people to commit crimes. They definitely don't belong in a house with two kids...

:banghead:

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Wynder wrote:

DreQo wrote:

So, by safely and habitually unloading and clearing my weapon before cleaning,and simply leaving the rounds on the table with me while I clean, I'm increasing the likelihood of a negligent discharge? Wrong. The possibility of the weapon firing becomes '0' when all rounds are removed from the weapon. The location of the ammo at that point is irrelevant. This officer failed to properly clear his weapon, whether he was cleaning it or just being stupid. That is where the problem lies. Not in the design of the handgun, not in the location of the ammo, but in the actions (or lack there of) of the person handling the weapon.

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If you remove your loaded mag and place it on the table and, in the completion of your cleaning, replace that loaded magazine back in the weapon, thinking it may be empty, slide forward and hammer down, yes, there can be an ND.

The plain fact is that if there's no ammunition near your weapon, there is '0' chance it will go bang. If there is ammunition around in a magazine, the same can't be said -- it's the same reason why shooting competitions have a safe area where you're allowed to dry-fire and repair but are expressly prohibit the handling of magazines, regardless of whether or not they have rounds in them.

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It's eerie, absolutely eerie how this kind of thinking parallels the usual causal model that the antis subscribe to---if there are no bad things (guns) in certain places then there is zeo chance something terrible willhappen.

This is aprettygood structural form, of course, else Wynder wouln't be professin' it.

There are some differences beyond thesame structural model that he antis use, of course. But it's basically the same causal logic that Wynder likes. Wynder says if there are no bad things (ammo) in certain places then there is zero chance something terrible willhappen.

It's amusing to seepeople who take oneview of a structural form in one context, then choose anopposite view in another context. Especially, when they don't even notice it.

The antis do it all the time, everyone will say. But so to the pros...

It's quite easy to fall into the trap through ideology, rationalization and lack of critical analysis.

Me, I'm gonna make sure the next time I clean some of my guns that I will have LOTS of ammo nearby. Nobody from some pro-gun nanny group is gonna tell me to make it harder to get to my ammo for any length of time. That's like disarming me. What if someone starts crashing through the door? What happens if I'm cleaning my guns in the aftermath of a hurricane and societal security systems have broken down and there are no LEOs for miles?

You can take my ammo when you pry it from my Hoppes No. 9 stained cold fingers! :cuss:

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So... if someone is too negligent to clear his weapon before cleaning it, wouldn't it be fair to assume that the same person would also be too negligent to move all ammo to a different area?

And, even more important than that, doesn't moving the ammo to a "safe area" necessitate getting all of the ammo out of the gun? If you don't think there's a round in the chamber, as would happen in an ND, there's no amount of ammo you could place in another area that would decrease your likelihood of an ND. Really, moving one's ammo away may even act to increase the likelihood of NDs through risk compensation--- "Yup, all the ammo's out of the gun and locked in my closet, must mean it's safe to point the gun wherever I want and pull the trigger."

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Yep, I admitted that it was as likely as being attacked by flying pink elephants. Good job ignoring the rest of what I said.

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It didn't ignore it, it was irrelevant. But simply because you take all of the ammo out of your magazines doesn't mean everyone does. Your way is not THE way. My way is not THE way. As I've said before. Do whatever the hell you want -- I don't care if you shoot yourself in the hand or not, as infintessimal as the chance is. I'm happy being marginally safer. That's my opinion, right or wrong. Deal.

There are some differences beyond the same structural model that he antis use, of course. But it's basically the same causal logic that Wynder likes.

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Holy tangent, Batman. Yes, it's the same structural model that's the foundation for gun safety. If you don't point a gun at something, you won't hit it. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't go bang. As for my preference for that model, I write software all day and the if/then/else decision making process is second nature to my brain.

Like, if HankT ever makes a post relevant to the original topic of a thread, the apocolypse is brought forth.

So... if someone is too negligent to clear his weapon before cleaning it, wouldn't it be fair to assume that the same person would also be too negligent to move all ammo to a different area?

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Don't know how you make this leap. Since most ND's happen by people who regularly handle firearms such as LEO's and Military, by your logic, police officers and military personal are negligent?

Really, moving one's ammo away may even act to increase the likelihood of NDs through risk compensation

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Only if your stupid. There is no risk compensation when handling firearms -- it's always loaded; at least, that's how I treat it. Once again, you're all more than willing to do whatever you like; it's a free country, you're entitled to your methods and opinions. While I don't subsribe to some of their political methods, I'm fine with the NRA's safety rules -- they seem to be sound and well-thought out and I have no issue with being as safety-minded as possible when it comes to handling a gun.

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Wynder wrote:

So... if someone is too negligent to clear his weapon before cleaning it, wouldn't it be fair to assume that the same person would also be too negligent to move all ammo to a different area?

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Don't know how you make this leap. Since most ND's happen by people who regularly handle firearms such as LEO's and Military, by your logic, police officers and military personal are negligent?

Really, moving one's ammo away may even act to increase the likelihood of NDs through risk compensation

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Only if your stupid. There is no risk compensation when handling firearms -- it's always loaded; at least, that's how I treat it. Once again, you're all more than willing to do whatever you like; it's a free country, you're entitled to your methods and opinions. While I don't subsribe to some of their political methods, I'm fine with the NRA's safety rules -- they seem to be sound and well-thought out and I have no issue with being as safety-minded as possible when it comes to handling a gun.

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As for the first quote, I'm not saying that any particular group of people is more negligent than another. What I'm saying is that if clearing the gun of ammo is a step that some people may accidentally omit through forgetfulness or carelessness, what makes you think that they're going to remember to move the ammo someplace "safe" any better? I'm not attacking what you choose to do, I'm just wondering why the ammo's location is an issue when the NDs in cleaning are caused by a failure to clear the weapon. The only purpose that I can think of is that it gives a false sense of security...

As for risk compensation, take note that I said "may".

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I definitely don't have answers for everything -- I didn't come up with the safety rule, the NRA did, I just happen to agree with it.

The only instance I could see is if someone took a loaded mag out of their gun, cleaned the gun and, after reassembling it, popped the mag in, slide forward and hammered down as a lot of double action only guns require these days.

Is it a remote possibility? Sure is. If it does happen, could it be a BadThing™? I'd say so.

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Wynder wrote:

I definitely don't have answers for everything -- I didn't come up with the safety rule, the NRA did, I just happen to agree with it.

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The NRA is a notorious Compromiser in all matters related to guns.

I would NEVER trust their judgment on safety issues. Kelly J, Doug and MEM all agree: the NRA simply is not up to the job anymore. In fact, their safety concepts are constantly not adhered to. Coincidence? I think not.

The GOA would never let this happen...