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An Idea...

DanOSteel

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(please bear with my somewhat disturbed sense of humor)

A right not exercised is a right that's lost.... hmmmm

let's consider:

a Kooky family has grown an incredible crop but can't possibly eat all of it before it goes bad. what do they do? find a way to preserve it.

a Kooky guy earns more money than he needs to pay his bills.... what does he do with the excess? saves it for the future.

someone Kooky spends all their life dedicating themselves to learning a martial art and becomes a black belt. Does he wear his belt everywhere to proudly display his title? nope, he keeps it to himself.

the point is that we have many rights as a result of many Kooky peoples' sacrifices.

as long as we resepct and preserve those rights, we will have them.

Flaunting our right to openly carry a firearm is a mixed bag o' 'Kookies'.

sure it can serve to bring awareness to others regarding their right to do the same, (and an armed America is a good America) however it can also serve to bring awareness to those who don't want us to have that right because they are afraid.

If these Kooky individuals realize that it is legal for every Kooky Joe to be carrying a sidearm, they're very likely to find a way to change the law.

without a concealed permit you can't have a loaded firearm in your vehicle.
(except under certain circumstances), so what good is it if everywhere you go,
you have to unload, lock up and put away your firearm, and then have to get it
back out and reload when you reach your destination?

With a CWP, not only can you be armed at all times (with a few exceptions),
but you also will not have tipped your hand in the event that you find yourself in a Kooky situation that would cause you to need your weapon.

A definite tactical advantage.

A Kooky mugger wants your wallet, you reach behind as though you are going to comply... instead of getting your wallet, he gets your .45 staring him inhisKooky face.

Same Kooky mugger sees that you're packing... if you aren't fully aware of your surroundings and don't see him coming up behind you, what will you do if he disarms you, or worse, just puts his own firearm against the back of your head?

In a bank or any other establishment during a hold-up... you're openly carrying, and displaying your rights... you've also just singled yourself out of the crowd, and put on a big Kooky target.

Want to preserve your right to openly carry, and keep it firmly established in our laws?

Don't flaunt it, don't waste it... save it for a time when it might be important.

we live in a shall issue state... if you apply, you shall be given a CWP.

(unless you have something Kooky on your record that would disqualify you, which in most cases would also make it illegal for you to own or posess a firearm in the first place)

Do yourself a favor... spend the $60, get printed, wait about 6 weeks for your little Kooky piece of paper to come in the mail. You'll be glad you did.

:)
 

heresolong

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Try watching when something like Virginia Tech happens. Or better yet, try watching when something like Pearl, Mississippi happens. You won't hear one word about the fellow with the gun that stopped the shooter. Bias can be subtle. They don't need to falsify shooting demonstrations like CNN and the Broward County sheriff in order to be biased. Leaving out crucial info can accomplish the same thing.
 

DanOSteel

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agreed... in those states that don't allow open carry, the only option is a CWP.

if just 1 of the VT students or faculty had been packing, the situation could have been averted much sooner.

unfortunately, in many states, like Oregon, you have to jump through a lot of hoops and have a good reason (in the eyes if the issuing authority) to be allowed to carry... here in WA, all you have to do is apply, and wait.
 

sv_libertarian

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DanOSteel wrote:
Do yourself a favor... spend the $60, get printed, wait about 6 weeks for your little Kooky piece of paper to come in the mail. You'll be glad you did.

:)

Actually state law says WITHIN 30 days. Most agencies read that as "wait 30 days". Besides I should not have to wait 30 days or more to enjoy my rights. Would you like to wait 30 days before you could be allowed to start viewing cable tv? Of course not. Why wait 30 days before you can exercise any other right? Methinks Dano is a cop who is uncomfortable with the average citizen openly displaying arms, and would prefer that only "authorized" people openly display arms.


You see, to carry a concealed pistol requires a permit. Concealed carry is hardly a "normal" way of carrying, but rather the result of society realizing that too many people insist on that funny thing of exercising their right to bear arms. So what do you do? You regulate it, tax it, and make a big deal out of it while pretending not to make a big deal about it.

Throughout history OPEN CARRY has been considered the norm, while CONCEALED CARRY was a sneaky thing that you did only if you had a sneaky reason to hide your pistol, thus the government licensing concealed carry which as far as I am concerned is BS too. "Vermont style" http://www.gunowners.org/vtcarry.htmcarry should be the norm everywhere. That is to say, no permit to conceal, no permit to open carry. You just carry the pistol however you please. Bad guys do it, why restrict the honest citizen who by definition is not a criminal?

Many states happily deal with OC on a daily basis. Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, New Mexico, South Dakota, Kentucky, Virginia, and Vermont. That's 20% of all states that have common sense OC laws that are embraced by their populace.

Never forget that open carry has never gone away in this country. Why are you tripping so badly over OC? If I have a gun and hide it, or have a gun and it is visible what is the difference? Am I more likely to commit a crime because you can see my gun? Why hide my light under a basket?

How many people OCing do you know of who have been snuck up on and disarmed by a would be robber? Robber seek soft targets as you very well know, and are more likely to go somewhere else rather than grapple with an armed citizen.

My main weapon is in plain view. When I get a belly gun that will be my sneaky little hideaway.

If I am in a bank being robbed, OCing or CCing, I believe that if I felt justified in drawing my weapon in defense I would become a target.

The more I re-read this post, the more I am convinced dano is a cop. Only a cop or someone who is programmed to believe certain things would talk this way.

So come clean DanOSteel, are you 'da man? You can have my full name; Steve Coffman, Olympia WA. What is yours? I have already made my profession clear. What do you do?

Steve

BTW, your farmer analogy makes no sense.
 

Bear 45/70

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DanOSteel wrote:
agreed... in those states that don't allow open carry, the only option is a CWP.

if just 1 of the VT students or faculty had been packing, the situation could have been averted much sooner.

unfortunately, in many states, like Oregon, you have to jump through a lot of hoops and have a good reason (in the eyes if the issuing authority) to be allowed to carry... here in WA, all you have to do is apply, and wait.
Actually Oregon is also a "shall issue state just like Washington.
 

ConditionThree

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DanOSteel wrote:
Want to preserve your right to openly carry, and keep it firmly established in our laws?

Don't flaunt it, don't waste it... save it for a time when it might be important.

Preservation of a right comes in the regularexercise of it...

I quote;

"If a man neglects to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example."

- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., The Path of the Law.

By not 'enforcing' your rights by the exercise of them, the law will seek to deprive you of them- after all-- if you don't use them, why would you care if they were abridged or prohibited?

Elsewhere I recollect another quote... "Exposure increases tolerance." The more exposure gun owners have, the greater likelihood their philosophy and actions will be accepted. Gun owners stand to gain support by openly carrying their weapon, rather than squirreling it away in some hidden place in their pants. Being open about their intentions demystifies gun ownership- not only who carries, but in some instances the "why".

Concealed carry places gun owners in the position of being 'covert agents'- and while you perceive that they have a 'tactical' advantage there is no deterrence of crime. The only time a concealed firearm can be a deterrent is when it is drawn and displayed. An openly carried firearm immediately places a criminal into the position of weighing out consequences--its not just jail time they may face if caught, but death. It makes them afraid to do the crime, as they should be.

Confronted by a gun snatch, a criminal has given me the justification to defend myself. Considering the hypothetical of a criminal disarming me with their own firearm or the pretence of a firearm- I will invite them to shoot me, because the only way they will get it from me is if Im cooling to room temperature. This raises the stakes on the criminal once again, because if they only have a pretend firearm,they areriskingtheir life on a ruse that requires them to ante up with nothing less than a lethalbullet expelled from the tip of their finger oran imitation firearm. Not even Jack Bauer is that cool.
 

heresolong

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ConditionThree wrote:
Concealed carry places gun owners in the position of being 'covert agents'- and while you perceive that they have a 'tactical' advantage there is no deterrence of crime.
Although I agree with your point in general I have to argue with this statement. Although you may be right that one person carrying a concealed weapon is not a crime deterrent, the ability for anyone in society to be carrying a concealed weapon is definitely a deterrent. Criminals are less likely to target people if there is a chance that the target will be armed. Read John Lott "More Guns, Less Crime".
 

Bear 45/70

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heresolong wrote:
ConditionThree wrote:
Concealed carry places gun owners in the position of being 'covert agents'- and while you perceive that they have a 'tactical' advantage there is no deterrence of crime.
Although I agree with your point in general I have to argue with this statement. Although you may be right that one person carrying a concealed weapon is not a crime deterrent, the ability for anyone in society to be carrying a concealed weapon is definitely a deterrent. Criminals are less likely to target people if there is a chance that the target will be armed. Read John Lott "More Guns, Less Crime".
That's Lott's opinion which isn't truely backed up by statistics. Unless you have half the peoplecarrying concealed the criminal has the odds in his favor that his vivtim is unarmed and no where in this country are the concealed carry figure any where close to 25% much less 50%. But one guy, OCing in any group puts the criminal in the position of knowing there are not odds in his favor that no one has a gun.
 

Agent 47

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The general mentality in society as a whole is the assumption that gun carriers are the fringe or the vast minority. This is widely cultivated by the practice of concealed carry over open carry,society ( and by proxy, the criminals within society ) fool themselves ( subconsciously in some cases ) into believing that nobody carries. Or that the odds of someone carrying are so remote as to not effect their decision to commit a crime against another. The mere presence of openly carried guns even if only amongst a small percentage of the populace can instill the idea of an armed public into the otherwise apathetic mind of the placated criminal and cause him to rethink his carrier choice.
 

ConditionThree

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heresolong wrote:
Read John Lott "More Guns, Less Crime".

Thanks for the reading room suggestion. But like the others who posted here claim, before concealed carry could make an impact on crime as a deterrent, the majority of the population would have to carry, and then, regular stories of lawful gun owners defending themselves would have to make the news.

The open carry of a firearm has an immediate and direct impact on an observantperson's behavior. It's a little like a police cruiser moving down a street or highway- suddenly everyone correctly uses their turn signals, observes the speed limit, yields their right of way and obeys not only the rules of the road, but also make every effort to be courteous to other drivers in spite of their inclination to road rage and flipping the bird. Im certain officers have observed this even walking a beat in a city street. If every officer carried concealed and wore street clothes they would cease to be an effective deterrent to crime.
 

heresolong

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First off, its not John Lott's opinion. It has been well researched and his findings are based on an exhaustive analysis of crime statistics in over 3,000 counties of the United States.

Second, the deterrent effect on crime of liberal concealed carry laws has been well documented. Because criminals do not know who might be carrying in a society in which anyone could be, they turn their attention to crimes in which they do not have to confront a person. In Britain "hot" burglaries have gone through the roof since guns were completely outlawed. With the homeowner present alarm systems are more likely to be turned off and there is someone home to point out all the valuables, eliminating the need for a time consuming search. In the US hot burglaries are rare due to the danger of being shot.

Third, why do you suppose that every time there is a huge shooting it occurs somewhere where guns are banned? Because the criminals know that no one is likely to be shooting back at them.
 

Gray Peterson

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DanOSteel, every open carry I know has a CPL due to the functions of the law here with requiring it for loaded car carry. I also do carry concealed as an option at times when I feel it to be appropriate.
 

Agent 47

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Given the deterring effect on crime concealed carry produces I should think it to be many times increased by the presence ofa few open carriers throughout society to constantly remind the wary criminal of what awaits him during his next foray into villainy.
 

BluesBear

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Concealed carry does absolutely nothing to prevent crime. Most people aren't even aware it's an option. At best it can only stop a crime already in progress. In our society the instance of a concealed firearm being used to stop a crime is of such a low percentage as to be almost unnoticeable.

But the sight ofopenly carried firearms does prevent crime. This fact has been confirmed all through history.

For way too many years firearms have been hidden from the public eye. In my lifetime I have seen America transform from a country where almost everyone had at least one firearm in every household to a nation that is almost ignorant of them. Movies and TV have exaggerated their power. Sensational reporting has distorted the image of thetypical gun owner from the friendly neighbor next door into a maniacal sociopath.

Only through education can we reaffirm what our founding father knew. But how do we educate? Gun magazines and errornet forums expend most of their power preaching to the choir. Programs like the NRA's Eddie Eagle are excellentbut most schools will not allow it due to their silly "zero tolerance" policies. Our schools are now controlled by ostriches who believe that by sticking their head in the ground all the evil will go away. We have become a nation so obsessed with tolerance that we have become radically intolerant of anything outside of our personal peridium.

Responsible open carry accomplishes many things.

  • It shows that gun owners are everyday people
  • It shows that guns in and of themselves are not evil
  • It increases awareness of responsible gun ownership
  • It makes people ask questions - there are still many people who want to learn
  • It prevents crime. Or at least it causes criminals to go elsewhere
And what if every time a criminal went elsewhere there was another someone openly carrying? Be it a police officer in uniform or just a average person going about their daily routine. As it is, the criminal's number one fear is getting caught. However for some getting caught doesn't bother them. They know the system. Three hots and a cot until the system finally releases them back into society. The criminal's number one fear should be reformation through reincarnation.

We have become such an entitled society that we have lost sight of our roots. When I was growing up we were all cautioned to "never get above yourraising". The majority of Americans have never had to live through a World War or a Depression. We have lost sight of the strugglesof daily life that created this country.The people in America today could not endure the hardships that our forefathers did to build this country. We havecerated a nation of pampered, spoiled, self-centeredsheeple who feel they are entitled to everything and anything.We have so many labor saving devices that most people don't know what real labor is anymore. Too many people have learned to rely on the government that they don't know how to rely on themselves or each other.

In the past 50 years, responsible gun ownership has been forced into a closet. It's been forced to live in semi-secrecy. It's a basic human right that been swept under the carpet. Sure we're allowed to own guns but we're not supposed to talk about them. We are supposed to keep them safely locked away and otherwise hidden. And by being forced to live a clandestine existence the truth has been distorted. Myths have overshadowed the facts. The gun itself has been falsely demonized. It's high time those misconceptions were changed.


It's time WE gun owners came out of the closet.
 

heresolong

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BluesBear wrote:
Concealed carry does absolutely nothing to prevent crime. Most people aren't even aware it's an option. At best it can only stop a crime already in progress. In our society the instance of a concealed firearm being used to stop a crime is of such a low percentage as to be almost unnoticeable
Where on earth are you getting this? Guns are used defensively millions of times each year in this country. Do you have some statistic that can back up your assertion that concealed carry guns are not a significant percentage of this? I hate to say it, but you are talking against virtually everyone who has studied the issue. I am not arguing against open carry, I am in fact starting to do it myself, but to claim that concealed carry doesn't reduce crime rates in the face of the overwhelming evidence that it does is somewhat disingenuous. Check out the work by John Lott, Gary Mauser, et al. I know people are busy denigrating their work in posts above but the evidence is pretty conclusive that in fact concealed carry reduces crime rates substantially.
 

HankT

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Mainsail wrote:
HankT wrote:
Mainsail wrote:
I don’t want to be a kook. I prefer an approach of quiet dignity. What I’m doing is normal, and so I act normal.
I don't think sv_lib was suggesting being a kook--just sending out a press release or some other notice to achieve some beneficial coverage or acknowledgment.

I still prefer to maintain some decorum. So far, everyone I’ve encountered has acted as though my pistol was no big deal. Why should I act as though it is? I think it’s best to be low key, like there is nothing out of the ordinary.

JMO




Mainsail wrote:
I often patronize Cutter’s Point Coffee on Pacific in downtown Tacoma. I have my cappuccino and read the paper. I had thought that the police were ignoring me as I haven’t had so much as a drive-by from them anywhere I’ve gone in Tacoma. In case you’re unfamiliar, the University of Washington Tacoma campus borders Pacific Ave on the east side. I make sure to stay on the public sidewalk due to the sensitivity with colleges and universities.

As I sat drinking my coffee, the barista approached and asked if I was law enforcement, I said no. He told me he’d gotten several calls from people and the U-dub security regarding my pistol. He said he knew it was legal but that I was freaking people out. I told him how I was there just last night without any problem and he repeated that he was getting calls and that people were ‘freaked out’. He was sort of laughing the whole time and never asked me to leave or change my method of carry.

After my coffee I left and walked back to my car, I was on the sidewalk walking back toward my car, and I passed three guys talking. One of them interrupted the other and hissed, “Did you see that!” referring to my Sig. Wow, it’s been so long since anyone made any sort of fuss about it I had thought it was being accepted as normal. Now I’m wondering if I was mistaken.

Walking back, I crossed Pacific and was walking north past the federal courthouse I noticed a TPD car on the other side across the trolley tracks. I doubt they could see me, but I’m pretty sure they were looking for me.
So now I wonder if I should look for a new coffee shop. On the one hand, the Cutter’s Point wasn’t bothered by my firearm in the least. On the other, I don’t know that I really want to deal with the TPD again. Olsen has already proven that they will lie, threaten, and attempt to intimidate if they feel the need to. On the other hand, why do I care? On the other hand, I don’t want to freak anyone out. Wait, that’s four hands…

Such are the results of using biased data in forming generalizations and conclusions....
 

UTOC-45-44

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Mainsail

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HankT wrote:
Mainsail wrote:
HankT wrote:
Mainsail wrote:
I don’t want to be a kook. I prefer an approach of quiet dignity. What I’m doing is normal, and so I act normal.
I don't think sv_lib was suggesting being a kook--just sending out a press release or some other notice to achieve some beneficial coverage or acknowledgment.

I still prefer to maintain some decorum. So far, everyone I’ve encountered has acted as though my pistol was no big deal. Why should I act as though it is? I think it’s best to be low key, like there is nothing out of the ordinary.

JMO

Mainsail wrote:
I often patronize Cutter’s Point Coffee on Pacific in downtown Tacoma...

Such are the results of using biased data in forming generalizations and conclusions....

I still stand by what I wrote. My carry is normal and I will continue to behave normally. I'm not an activist and I don't want to be one. I never said that making a public proclamation was wrong; it's just not my style.
 

HankT

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Mainsail wrote:
HankT wrote:
Mainsail wrote:
HankT wrote:
Mainsail wrote:
I don’t want to be a kook. I prefer an approach of quiet dignity. What I’m doing is normal, and so I act normal.
I don't think sv_lib was suggesting being a kook--just sending out a press release or some other notice to achieve some beneficial coverage or acknowledgment.

I still prefer to maintain some decorum. So far, everyone I’ve encountered has acted as though my pistol was no big deal. Why should I act as though it is? I think it’s best to be low key, like there is nothing out of the ordinary.

JMO

Mainsail wrote:
I often patronize Cutter’s Point Coffee on Pacific in downtown Tacoma...

Such are the results of using biased data in forming generalizations and conclusions....

I still stand by what I wrote. My carry is normal and I will continue to behave normally.
What is your estimatedpercentage of the adult population in your state/county/city/area OC's?

Ballpark.
 
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