Question for LEO

wilkie · Oct 22, 2007

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I work as a service technician for a major restaurant equipment repair company in the Tidewater area. My question to you is this- Is it legal for me to cc in a kitchen of a restaurant that sells alcohol for on site consumption? I know this is illegal if I am a patron,but dont know about if I am in back working and am away from the general public.

roscoe13 · Oct 22, 2007

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I'd say not legal based on http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308 paragraph J3, unless you think you could successfully claim you're employee of the restaurant...

Dutch Uncle · Oct 22, 2007

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I don't know the answer to this either, though as a contractor, I think your relationship to the restaurant is more that of an employee than a patron. The purpose of the legislation was presumably to prohibit CC'ers from drinking and carrying. JMHO.

Anyway, this is probably a better question for a lawyer than an LEO. If you read other threads here, you'll be struck by how much ignorance and misinformation many LEO's have about firearms law. (LEO229 excepted, of course.

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wilkie · Oct 22, 2007

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It was LEO229 I was asking;HOWEVER all input is needed. I thought the same- by being a contractor and not a patron this does not apply to me. I just want some clairification should I ever need to defend my actions. Most of my customers know I carry and dont have an issue with it. Curious about a LEO'S opinion!!

dng · Oct 22, 2007

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NO disrespect to LEO229, but the others are right about talking to a lawyer. LEO229 may be willing to give you his opinion, but I wouldn't base what I do on any LEO'sopinion. Make sure you're standing on firm legal ground in order to save yourself some legal headaches. Just my 2 cents.

wilkie · Oct 22, 2007

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THANKS I thought this spark some discussion but all I really want to know is who does this law apply to-is it patrons of the establishment or is it all inclusive even to contractors; after all is not a contractor working for the owner? Therefore technicaly speeking an employee ---at while he is there working on equipment?

wilkie · Oct 22, 2007

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MAYBE I should reword my question I am just looking for a LEO'S ideas of how they would handle the situation. In regards to the law is there a provision made for someone acting in the owners behalf? As a contractor on site working and not patronizing the place are you or are you not acting on the owners behalf and if so does this law apply to you?

roscoe13 · Oct 22, 2007

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wilkie wrote:

THANKS I thought this spark some discussion but all I really want to know is who does this law apply to-is it patrons of the establishment or is it all inclusive even to contractors; after all is not a contractor working for the owner? Therefore technicaly speeking an employee ---at while he is there working on equipment?

That's a grey area. If you were a contractor working FOR the establishment (say, a waiter provided by a temp agency) you'd probably be OK. As a tech employed by another firm to work on equipment that happens to be at the establishment, I'm not so sure. Either way, OC is still legal...

LEO 229 · Oct 22, 2007

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wilkie wrote:

I work as a service technician for a major restaurant equipment repair company in the Tidewater area. My question to you is this- Is it legal for me to cc in a kitchen of a restaurant that sells alcohol for on site consumption? I know this is illegal if I am a patron,but dont know about if I am in back working and am away from the general public.

I am no lawyer and cannot give you legal advice as is stated in the rules for this forum..

But in reading the code section regarding CC in an alcohol serving establishment.... you cannot CC unless you are an EMPLOYEE. I do not believea contractor is considered an employee for tax purposes. I allow my employees to CC at my business.

You could always OC.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia;

however, nothing herein shall prohibit

any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club

or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

wilkie · Oct 22, 2007

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I normally cc and switching back and forth is too much of a hassle,too many rigs. This is the reason I was looking for a LEO'S OPINION --I wasnt looking for lgal advice. Alcohol is served in the front I am in the kitchen not where alcohol is served.

LEO 229 · Oct 22, 2007

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I am going to think there is no separation between kitchen and dining area.

Code covers the entire business.

longwatch · Oct 22, 2007

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As stated before an LEO opinion isn't worth much sometimes. The Manassas cops said it was illegal for any non LEO to carry at all.

LEO 229 · Oct 22, 2007

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longwatch wrote:

As stated before an LEO opinion isn't worth much sometimes. The Manassas cops said it was illegal for any non LEO to carry at all.

I do try to back everything I say with the appropriate code section.

If I do not know.. I say so.

peter nap · Oct 22, 2007

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This isn't legal advice either, just my opinion.
There is a prescribed method for interpreting a statute. Since I am not nearly educated enough to do it, I'll post a brief description of the procedure.

It is presumed that a statute will be interpreted so as to be internally consistent. A particular section of the statute shall not be divorced from the rest of the act. The sui generis rule applies to resolve the problem of giving meaning to groups of words where one of the words is ambiguous or inherently unclear. For example, in Criminal Law, a statute might require a mens rea element of "unlawfully and maliciously". Whereas the word "maliciously" is well-understood, the word "unlawfully" in this context is less clear. Hence, it must be given a meaning of the "same kind" as the word of established meaning. This is particularly the case when the two or more words are conjoined, i.e., linked by the word "and", as opposed to placed in a disjunctive relationship, i.e., linked by the word "or", where the interpretation of the two or more words might be different depending on the circumstances (sometimes courts have to attribute a conjunctive intention to the legislature even though the list is disjunctive because, otherwise, no sensible overall interpretation can be ascribed

If I were in your position, I'd look at the statute and see if it says something like "or service technician" If not, I'd either OC or leave it in the truck.

Renegade · Oct 22, 2007

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And the real question is...what would we be charged with if we were discovered CC'ing in a restaurant that serves alcohol?

Also, if someone, say a LEO, were guessing that you were CC'ing and asked if you were, or asked you to lift your shirt, etc. Wouldn't any mandatory answer or action be viewed as a violation of our Fifth Amendment right to protect against self-incrimination? I guess he could go on eBay and get a warrant to search you if he really wanted to but are we required to incriminate ourselves?

One more - what if your were asked by restaurant staff or even a LEO if you were a LEO - are we somehow reqired to answer THAT specific question? Or can I just politely refuse to answer any and all questions regarding my status as a LEO/non-LEO?

peter nap · Oct 22, 2007

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Without giving legal advise I can only give my uneducated opinion.

You would be charged with carrying a concealed weapon. Your permit doesn't allow you to carry there therefore, you have no authorization to carry concealed.

You never HAVE to answer questions from anyone unless granted immunity from prosecution. I think the applicable document to look at is the constution. However there are consequences. In your case, refusal to answer would probably result in a call to your boss explaining why his services were no longer needed.

If a LEO has probable suspecion that you committed a crime, he can search you. A bulge does not make a gun though and concealed should mean just that.
As far as asking you to do something ....cooperating in that way has gotten more people busted that anything else. If he feels he has cause, he'll search you. Just Say No!

Again, IMHO....you need to look this up yourself. I'm just guessing!

sjhipple · Oct 22, 2007

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LEO 229 is right. A contractor is not an employee.

I'm still not sure about this whole idea of the owner giving permission though and what legal ramifications that has.

paramedic70002 · Oct 23, 2007

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Just another exaple of why this is a bad law.

Say I'm on duty as a Paramedic and I get called to a choking at this restaurant, and I am armed. My employer (career) / Rescue Captain (volunteer) isn't aware of my armed status. Concealed means concealed, right? The vehicle I am in cannot be positively secured (other employees/broken locks). What am I supposed to do?

There is no "allowance" for emergency responders, as I have seen mentioned when I have brought this up previously. My choices are to break the law or not have it at all.

LEO 229 · Oct 24, 2007

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paramedic70002 wrote:

Just another exaple of why this is a bad law.

Say I'm on duty as a Paramedic and I get called to a choking at this restaurant, and I am armed. My employer (career) / Rescue Captain (volunteer) isn't aware of my armed status. Concealed means concealed, right? The vehicle I am in cannot be positively secured (other employees/broken locks). What am I supposed to do?

There is no "allowance" for emergency responders, as I have seen mentioned when I have brought this up previously. My choices are to break the law or not have it at all.

I have never know anyone in the medical field to carry a gun on the job. I guess it is because ithas never been necessary to shoot a patient with lead instead of morphine. :lol:

Normally they all carry a pouch with some scissors so they can cut away clothing.

In my experience... rescue always stages nearby when the situation is one where there is danger. The police roll up and secure the scene and then tell them to come in when it is safe.

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.

Dutch Uncle · Oct 24, 2007

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LEO 229 wrote:

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.

Likewise, the likelihood that I will ever be in a major accident on the "safe" roads in my quiet neighborhood is extremely remote. Nevertheless, I still wear my seatbelt all the time, and believe it or not, so do all the other "paranoid safety freaks" in my neighborhood!!! Someone needs to educate them how to determine when they will need their belts, and when they won't.

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