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Question for LEO

Doug Huffman

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LEO 229 wrote:
I have never know anyone in the medical field to carry a gun on the job. I guess it is because ithas never been necessary to shoot a patient with lead instead of morphine. :lol:

Normally they all carry a pouch with some scissors so they can cut away clothing.

In my experience... rescue always stages nearby when the situation is one where there is danger. The police roll up and secure the scene and then tell them to come in when it is safe.

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.
Wrong! Some services carry 'Schedule' narcotics and are prime targets for drug thugs.

A personal anecdote is not a source of good public policy - or personal belief. Believe nothing you read or hear unless you validate yourself or it fits your pre-existing worldview.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP KMA$$
 

PT111

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Dutch Uncle wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.
Likewise, the likelihood that I will ever be in a major accident on the "safe" roads in my quiet neighborhood is extremely remote. Nevertheless, I still wear my seatbelt all the time, and believe it or not, so do all the other "paranoid safety freaks" in my neighborhood!!! Someone needs to educate them how to determine when they will need their belts, and when they won't.
I disagree with the likelyhood of major accidents in a quiet neighborhood. We have had several in our "quiet" residential neighborhood including 2 deaths but no shootings. Don't you know that most accidents happen within five miles of home so let your wife drive until you get out of the area.
 

LEO 229

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Doug Huffman wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
I have never know anyone in the medical field to carry a gun on the job. I guess it is because ithas never been necessary to shoot a patient with lead instead of morphine. :lol:

Normally they all carry a pouch with some scissors so they can cut away clothing.

In my experience... rescue always stages nearby when the situation is one where there is danger. The police roll up and secure the scene and then tell them to come in when it is safe.

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.
Wrong! Some services carry 'Schedule' narcotics and are prime targets for drug thugs.

A personal anecdote is not a source of good public policy - or personal belief. Believe nothing you read or hear unless you validate yourself or it fits your pre-existing worldview.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP KMA$$
Pardon me..... What exactly was "Wrong!" ???

Oh wait.... from you.. everything..! :lol:
 

LEO 229

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Agent19 wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
I have never know anyone in the medical field to carry a gun on the job. I guess it is because ithas never been necessary to shoot a patient with lead instead of morphine. :lol:
I know several that work in the Medical profession that carry at work, from EMT's to Doctors.

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=5221169&nav=15MV
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/09/20/hospital.shooting.ap/index.html

If more did maybe this might not have happened.

The Obstetrician that delivered my sonCC's a HK USP Elite.
If you read Concealed Carry Magazine there is a Dr. K. R. (Neurologist/Neurosurgeon) that writes for them, he is known to carry a brace of Glocks,helives in LV.
Plumbers do not carry guns for their job but maybe they should too.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9403E0DF143EEE3ABC4B51DFBE66838A639EDE&oref=slogin

Just because a few have people of a given profession were attacked is no reason forALLto start packing a gun on the job. I am not aware of a rash of plumbers getting "jacked" while installing a water heaters. :D

Plumbers work in kitchens and if they are going to carry in a alcohol serving restaurant kitchens then they need to be added to the exemption of the VA state code too.
 

NytoVa

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LEO 229 wrote:
I have never know anyone in the medical field to carry a gun on the job. I guess it is because ithas never been necessary to shoot a patient with lead instead of morphine. :lol:

Normally they all carry a pouch with some scissors so they can cut away clothing.

In my experience... rescue always stages nearby when the situation is one where there is danger. The police roll up and secure the scene and then tell them to come in when it is safe.

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.


I worked for an ambulance service in a large urbanupstate NY city duringthe early 80's. At leasthalfthe overnight shift carried a firearm. For 10 years I never worked a shift w/o my pocket pistol..easily concealed & better than nothing.

It was against the rules and a firing offensebut not state law.

Also we didn't post like they do now. We frequently got to the scene before the police. If it sounded like a bad call we would kill the lights/siren early & drive around the block a few times but there was no policy like today.

I thought I read somewhere that VA has a law/rule against EMT's carrying in an ambulance. Don't know if its true.
 

LEO 229

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NytoVa wrote:
I worked for an ambulance service in a large urbanupstate NY city duringthe early 80's. At leasthalfthe overnight shift carried a firearm. For 10 years I never worked a shift w/o my pocket pistol..easily concealed & better than nothing.

It was against the rules and a firing offensebut not state law.

Also we didn't post like they do now. We frequently got to the scene before the police. If it sounded like a bad call we would kill the lights/siren early & drive around the block a few times but there was no policy like today.

I thought I read somewhere that VA has a law/rule against EMT's carrying in an ambulance. Don't know if its true.
As you advised... it was not approved so your employer would have given you a little guff if it was discovered.

As they say.. better to ask for forgiveness and carry than to ask for permission and be denied.

I am sure you would agree that the gun was for self protection and not used on the job. And then.... cops and medics have a good relationship so not much would be said.
 

LEO 229

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Agent19 wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Just because a few have people of a given profession were attacked is no reason forALLto start packing a gun on the job.
so stay at home mom/dads should go unarmed.

based on your reasoning:
LVMP should hang up their guns, they had 17yrs without a officer being killed from criminal gun fire.
Come on now.... your twisting things here.

For a cop.. it is a tool on his belt he is required to carry as part of his job. Remember... he runs after armed criminals and parents scoop their kids up and run away from danger.

Stay at home parents is not paid employment either. It was pointless for your to mention them.

I was talking about "plumbers" that typically work for a big company..... I even provided a report where ONE was attacked. This does not mean that ALL plumbers get attacked so frequently that they all need to carry a gun next to their pipe wrench.
 

paramedic70002

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LEO 229 wrote:
I have never know anyone in the medical field to carry a gun on the job. I guess it is because ithas never been necessary to shoot a patient with lead instead of morphine. :lol:

Normally they all carry a pouch with some scissors so they can cut away clothing.

In my experience... rescue always stages nearby when the situation is one where there is danger. The police roll up and secure the scene and then tell them to come in when it is safe.

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.
Hey now LEO 229, you have stepped outside the line here. This sounds a lot like the anti-gunner argument of, "Why do you need a gun at..." I'm guessing you have no experience as an EMS responder, but surely you can agree that the dispatchers sometimes give wrong or incomplete information to you. It's the same for us.

Just last year I responded to an unconscious male. On arrival I found several people directing us into a house. Once inside I found a deceased male prone with a spent cartridge case lying between his knees. To understate the situation, I was highly uncomfortable until the law showed up.

Many times I have arrived or been on scene when violence erupted, sometimes with weapons. We had a crew several years ago attacked by a mob on the scene of a stabbing WITH police rolling in right behind them. On another occasion we were dispatched to a fall. On scene we found a female lying at the bottom of the stairs. Seems when they called 911 they neglected to mention that the boyfriend pushed her down the stairs and then kicked her around, fracturing her sternum (breastbone). When I asked where he was, she replied, "Behind you." I could go on and on, but you get the point.

If you've never known anyone in EMS to carry a gun, then you obviously don't know everyone in EMS. I did as a volunteer for several years, and when I drove wheelchair vans without a partner. I don't now because my employer forbids it.

"The police roll up and secure the scene..." Yet police still get shot from time to time.

Just in the last two years I am aware of at least four separate incidents where fire and EMS were specifically targeted. Two involved snipers at the scene of a structure fire. One EMS provider was pinned down and had to be rescued under fire by firefighters doing a scoop and scoot. Another was pinned down until LEOs neutralized the threat. One was a jealous ex who staked out the EMS station and killed the crew after they returned from a call. Last year a Paramedic called to a drunk at a country club in NC elected to take him home so he wouldn't drive. As the crew was helping him out of the ambulance, he pulled a small revolver and shot her in the chest. She survived. He was released on bond!
 

paramedic70002

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NytoVa wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
I have never know anyone in the medical field to carry a gun on the job. I guess it is because ithas never been necessary to shoot a patient with lead instead of morphine. :lol:

Normally they all carry a pouch with some scissors so they can cut away clothing.

In my experience... rescue always stages nearby when the situation is one where there is danger. The police roll up and secure the scene and then tell them to come in when it is safe.

The likeliness that rescue will be"jacked" while attending to avictim choking on a ham sandwich is not that great.


I worked for an ambulance service in a large urbanupstate NY city duringthe early 80's. At leasthalfthe overnight shift carried a firearm. For 10 years I never worked a shift w/o my pocket pistol..easily concealed & better than nothing.

It was against the rules and a firing offensebut not state law.

Also we didn't post like they do now. We frequently got to the scene before the police. If it sounded like a bad call we would kill the lights/siren early & drive around the block a few times but there was no policy like today.

I thought I read somewhere that VA has a law/rule against EMT's carrying in an ambulance. Don't know if its true.
VA Office of EMS published such a rule five years ago. I sicked VCDL on them. Subsequently they rescinded that policy but refused to re-publish the regs or even to issue an amendment letter. The regs are up for revision again. We'll see what happens this time.
Code:
> Weapons ban in EMS vehicles invalid and not
> being enforced
> *************************************************
> 
> For those who have been on this list for a while,
> you might recall
> our efforts to get a repeal on a regulation that
> prohibited EMS
> personnel with CHPs from carrying on ambulances.  On
> January 17th,
> 2003 I sent out an update stating that we had won.
> 
> We did, but one part of the law was inadvertently
> left on the books.
> A few of our members found this recently and one
> contacted the Office
> of Emergency Medical Services (OEMS) about the
> problem.
> 
> The member was told that the OEMS was aware of the
> problem and the
> regulation was NOT being enforced.
> 
> That's good but they need to get the regulation
> completely off the
> books anyhow!
> 
> Here is the email from OEMS to our member:
> 
> From: Michael Berg
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:59 PM
> To: xxx
> Cc: Gary Brown
> Subject: Weapons and EMS
> 
> Dear Mr. xxx,
> 
> As the Manager for the Regulation and Compliance
> Division for the
> Office of Emergency Medical Services, Mr. Brown has
> asked that I
> reply to your inquiry. Your question concerns the
> ability for EMS
> providers to be able to carry weapons during the
> course of their
> duties, especially while on an ambulance or
> responding to a request
> for assistance.
> 
> When the current version of the EMS Regulations were
> being
> promulgated (January 15, 2003), there was indeed a
> proposed
> regulation disallowing the carrying of weapons by
> EMS personnel on an
> ambulance. There was a mounted campaign against such
> a proposal and
> indeed the proposed regulation was withdrawn.
> Unfortunately, in
> another section of the regulations, specifically, 12
> VAC 5-31- 700
> EMS Safety (6) in part states, "Possession of a
> firearm, weapon, or
> explosive or incendiary device on any EMS vehicle is
> prohibited,
> exceptŠ" This was to have been removed during the
> revision process
> and simply was an oversight. We have
> administratively directed our
> field staff to not enforce this specific provision
> of the regulations.
> 
> I hope this answers your questions and addresses
> your concerns.
> Please feel free to call on me should we be of any
> additional
> assistance.
> 
> Michael D. Berg
> Manager, Regulation and Compliance
> Virginia Office of EMS
> 109 Governor Street, Suite UB-55
> Richmond, Virginia 23219
> (804)864-7615 (Office)
> (804)864-7580 (Fax)
> (800)523-6019 (Virginia only)
> [email]Michael.Berg@vdh.virginia.gov[/email]
>
 

NytoVa

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LEO 229 wrote:
As you advised... it was not approved so your employer would have given you a little guff if it was discovered.

As they say.. better to ask for forgiveness and carry than to ask for permission and be denied.

I am sure you would agree that the gun was for self protection and not used on the job. And then.... cops and medics have a good relationship so not much would be said.

In 10 years I never had to draw my pocket pistolbut I had my hand on it on more than one occasion. Even though some of management carried also, I have no doubt I would have been fired if I displayed it. I'll take getting fired over dying any day.

Absolutely for self (and partner)protection and would not consider drawing unless in grave danger. Most openly carried Mace and of coursea Mag-lite could be used defensively if needed. I was often asked why I carried my flashlight during the daytime...."just to check your eyes sir":)

It was a different time and we responded to manytypes of calls without PD being dispatched. Also, we didn't have portable radios or cell phones. If the SHTF you had to get to the ambulance to call for help. Today, as you said, PD is automatically dispatched &EMS will post until the scene is cleared.
 

LEO 229

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S&W1911 wrote:
WE should all be able to carry a gun CC or OC.being an EMS has nothing to do with it.
You do have the ability to carry.

But when it comes to working for someone else and what you do can effect your employer's and his insurance.. they should be able to place some limitations on what you do as an employee.

Your getting paid to do whatyour employerneeds done. If you want to carry a gun at work... go work for someone that will allow it.

I know as an employer that I would not want a less than mature employee shooting and killing someone while acting on behalf of my business.

It is far too easy to sue a business owner for the actions of his employee. The business has deeper pockets.

I do have two employees that I let carry on the job. But this is MY decision and I knowingly acceptthis risk.
 

LEO 229

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paramedic70002 wrote:
Hey now LEO 229, you have stepped outside the line here. This sounds a lot like the anti-gunner argument of, "Why do you need a gun at..." I'm guessing you have no experience as an EMS responder, but surely you can agree that the dispatchers sometimes give wrong or incomplete information to you. It's the same for us.

.....
No... I am talking about when you work for someone and your being paid to do a job.

I talked about it above.
 

NytoVa

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paramedic70002 wrote:

.......I'm guessing you have no experience as an EMS responder, but surely you can agree that the dispatchers sometimes give wrong or incomplete information to you. It's the same for us.

Many times the caller wants to hide what really happened or just gives bad info.

I had a "Mother fell down the steps" call and discovered bullet holes in her back during the survey. Shot dead by her son because she wouldn't let himopen a package of hotdogs. Son was standing there watching us take care of her. No PD on scene.

"Female having a heart attack in vehicle". First clue something was amiss was thehole in the windshield. Second clue was the hole in her chest from the shotgun. No PD on scene and no idea where the shooter was.

In both cases PD was not dispatched due to nature of the call.We had a great working relationship w/ the Police but I learned real fast that my survival on the job was going to depend on me.
 

S&W1911

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Portsmouth, Virginia, USA
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LEO 229 wrote:
S&W1911 wrote:
WE should all be able to carry a gun CC or OC.being an EMS has nothing to do with it.
You do have the ability to carry.

But when it comes to working for someone else and what you do can effect your employer's and his insurance.. they should be able to place some limitations on what you do as an employee.

Your getting paid to do whatyour employerneeds done. If you want to carry a gun at work... go work for someone that will allow it.

I know as an employer that I would not want a less than mature employee shooting and killing someone while acting on behalf of my business.

It is far too easy to sue a business owner for the actions of his employee. The business has deeper pockets.

I do have two employees that I let carry on the job. But this is MY decision and I knowingly acceptthis risk.
Well, I didn't look at it from the legal view but, like someone said "my life is worth more than my job". I carry my gun to work everyday, luckily my employers don't care. If i wasn't allowed to carry, I would still, just something smaller,then again thats my decision and my ass.
 

LEO 229

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NytoVa wrote:
paramedic70002 wrote:

.......I'm guessing you have no experience as an EMS responder, but surely you can agree that the dispatchers sometimes give wrong or incomplete information to you. It's the same for us.

Many times the caller wants to hide what really happened or just gives bad info.

I had a "Mother fell down the steps" call and discovered bullet holes in her back during the survey. Shot dead by her son because she wouldn't let himopen a package of hotdogs. Son was standing there watching us take care of her. No PD on scene.

"Female having a heart attack in vehicle". First clue something was amiss was thehole in the windshield. Second clue was the hole in her chest from the shotgun. No PD on scene and no idea where the shooter was.

In both cases PD was not dispatched due to nature of the call.We had a great working relationship w/ the Police but I learned real fast that my survival on the job was going to depend on me.
Any of the first responders.. Cops, EMTs, Firemen .. can be exposed to an event that is NOT what was initiallyreported.

Could EMTs and Firemen have a valid reason to be armed? Maybe.

Have they ever received any training on when to shoot? No. Exceptfor the arson investigators.

Have the IAFC pushed for new laws to allow it? Not that I know of.

http://www.iafc.org/


The real question is how often do EMTs and Firemen run upon this situation where they are actually harmed or injured by armed victims or subjects still on the scene?
 

peter nap

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Could EMTs and Firemen have a valid reason to be armed? Maybe.
Assuming you believe in our Constution, every Citizen of Virginia, in good standing has a right to carry a firearm. I agree that private employers have a right to say no, however, Government and quasi Governmental employers, do not.

Have they ever received any training on when to shoot? No. Except for the arson investigators.
I agree and I think that the state should require the local PD in conjunction with the Commonwealths Attorney to give training to those who choose to take it. Further, the shoot policy in effect for the local Department should apply to everyone. This eliminates much of the guesswork in when to push the button.

The real question is how often do EMTs and Firemen run upon this situation where they are actually harmed or injured by armed victims or subjects still on the scene?

It only takes once!
 
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