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Thread: Showing ID to police and a couple other things

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Tell me please, if I understand the law correctly. As I understand it, as someone who doesn't have a CPL, I have no obligation to show a police officer my ID for merely walking down the street while openly armed. I also believe it's pretty obvious that if I was terry stopped and searched merely for carrying that it would be a blatantly illegal act by the officers involved because there would be no probable cause, and that even if they found anything (which they wouldn't) it wouldn't be admissable in court. Am I right so far?

    2 other things I am simply unaware of. First, if stopped for carrying, amI obligted to tell the police even my name when asked like in the video in New Hampshire? I've never heard of such a thing, so I doubt it. Lastly, on the MSP webpage it says an officer might temporarily take possession of a firearm during a stop for "safety" reasons, and give it back at the end of the stop. Is there even a law that allows that?



    Thanks in advance.
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    Michigander wrote:
    Tell me please, if I understand the law correctly. As I understand it, as someone who doesn't have a CPL, I have no obligation to show a police officer my ID for merely walking down the street while openly armed. I also believe it's pretty obvious that if I was terry stopped and searched merely for carrying that it would be a blatantly illegal act by the officers involved because there would be no probable cause, and that even if they found anything (which they wouldn't) it wouldn't be admissable in court. Am I right so far?

    2 other things I am simply unaware of. First, if stopped for carrying, amI obligted to tell the police even my name when asked like in the video in New Hampshire? I've never heard of such a thing, so I doubt it. Lastly, on the MSP webpage it says an officer might temporarily take possession of a firearm during a stop for "safety" reasons, and give it back at the end of the stop. Is there even a law that allows that?

    Thanks in advance.
    Unless you can find a MI statute or court ruling saying otherwise, I think you have no obligation to carry ID or show it to officers on demand if you happen to have an ID.

    As for this temporary seizure stuff, unless their is a statute allowing this, this police conduct would appear to be unlawful except under some excception circumstance, such as a legitemate Terry stop including an officers' finding of your "dangerousness." A traffic stop for reasonable suspicion of some offense is a Terry stop.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike.

    I get the part about a Traffic stop being a Terry stop, but, I don't have the right to drive and carry, so this could only be a stop while I'm on foot or pedaling a bicycle. And I'm fairly certain a Terry pat down or any otherpolice actwith a pre requisite of criminal suspicionwould be unlawful for merely carrying.

    Something I forgot to mention; as I understand it, MCRGO V Ferndale is caselaw for state pre-emption of cities restricting firearms possession beyond what State Law already prohibits. Therefor, shouldn't Michigan be listed as having pre-emptive law, and maybe even be a gold star state? Granted the police are uneducated in the matter, particularly in the Detroit Metro area, but the law seems to be pretty clearly in our favor at this point. Although, I do suppose the vehicular restrictions are less than golden.
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    The point about the officer taking your firearm for safety that you found on the MSP website refers to interaction with the police if you have a CPL. You stated that you did not so it would seem not to apply.

    As for the requirement to produce ID, I have not found anything beyond opinions of LEOs supporting it. If you find anything please share with the rest of the class .

    I am not a lawyer but maybe I could ask a local judge?

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    Why would not want to show your id if ask by a LEO?



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    Sailorwatson wrote:
    Why would not want to show your id if ask by a LEO?

    Because you are under no obligation to do so. Also, unless your state has a statute that says you must provide identification if asked, (if driving a motor vehicle, you would have to provide your driver's liscence) you are not even obstructing justice. Do not tell a lie about who you are. I refuse to answer any questions without legal councel.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Why would I object?

    It's my right to, and rights should be exercised,and plus,I don't want my name to come up when they run it if I get pulled over. I don't know about other states, but in Michigan, they know about all the other times your licence was run through the database. That's fodder for a ticket.

    And, this might sound bad, but it's true, there are several PD's around here that are full of us against them jerks, and if they stopped me but have nothing on me, I would never consider being nice to them and voluntarily giving away information. Despite the many times I have been screwed over unfairly by police officers, it's not that I have a general dislike for cops. It's only that of all people, police should have no objection to a person exercizing his or her rights. Officers that have a problem with that are power hungry jerks.
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    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    I guess I would have thought that cooperation would show that I had nothing to hide and reduce the possibility of escalating the situation.Oh well. Guess I'm glad I'm not the LEO who would feel it my duty to ask you for your id.

    What do you tell the teller at the bank when she asks you for your id? I just show her mine. I guess I could tell her there is no law that requires me to show it...

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    Just for the record. I am all for OC. I just wish I had the guts to do so. I did happen to ask the local Chief of Police via email, and she replied back asking where in MI law does it state that OC is legal in MI. Since she showed her knowledge of the law, I just dropped it.



    BTW. Not trying to start anything. Just looking for your reasons, and you gave adequate responses.

    Sailorwatson

    http://www.grandrogueencampment.com


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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Banks have a right to control who is a member and who isn't. They are private establishments. My bank knows me and doesn't typically even ask for my ID. But that's irrelivant.

    Police can get in your way at any time. If a cop has an objection to a person operating fully within the law, that individual should find a new line of work.

    Again, I don't have a dislike for police. At one point I even considered being a cop, it's an honorable profession, and I might have done that if it would have paid better. But I won't be nice to someone hassling me, and I don't want anything on my record.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Sailorwatson wrote:
    Just for the record. I am all for OC. I just wish I had the guts to do so. I did happen to ask the local Chief of Police via email, and she replied back asking where in MI law does it state that OC is legal in MI. Since she showed her knowledge of the law, I just dropped it.

    As so many people on this forum have said in the past, " where in MI law does it state that wearing a green shirt is legal in MI?" it is legal unless there is a law that says it isn't.

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    Sailorwatson wrote:
    Just for the record. I am all for OC. I just wish I had the guts to do so. I did happen to ask the local Chief of Police via email, and she replied back asking where in MI law does it state that OC is legal in MI. Since she showed her knowledge of the law, I just dropped it.
    Showed her knowledge of the law? No, she showed her disregard of your rights by trying to use her position as local chief of police to convince you that a legal action and right is against the law.

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    Sailorwatson, have you read the "Open Carry in Michigan" thread? http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/3510.html

    A lot of good information there. In that thread, I also posted the link below, which I got from someone else in the Michigan forum. (I live in AZ, but I'm from Michigan and I go back to visit, so I try to stay current.)

    Someone needs to click the link below, open the April and May newsletters, and read the "Did you know?" section.
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...s_185809_7.pdf

    A little insight from the Michigan State Police on open carrying in Michigan.
    There is some great information in there, and you may want to email that info to your misinformed police chief.

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    heres an interesting tidbit.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MS...6_169220_7.pdf

    The bottom line under these statutes is that persons from other states may not bring a pistol into Michigan unless they are a police officer or hold a CPL from their state of residence. There are no exceptions for persons who wish to bring a pistol to Michigan to hunt or target shoot.

    might make it a bit hard on those who wish to OC who are not MI residents or do not have a home state permit.


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    mzbk2l wrote:
    Sailorwatson, have you read the "Open Carry in Michigan" thread? http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/3510.html

    A lot of good information there. In that thread, I also posted the link below, which I got from someone else in the Michigan forum. (I live in AZ, but I'm from Michigan and I go back to visit, so I try to stay current.)

    Someone needs to click the link below, open the April and May newsletters, and read the "Did you know?" section.
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...s_185809_7.pdf

    A little insight from the Michigan State Police on open carrying in Michigan.
    There is some great information in there, and you may want to email that info to your misinformed police chief.
    Thanks mbzk21. I have read most, if not all, of the posts there. The info is great.

    Sailorwatson



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