Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 62

Thread: No knock warrants

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA, ,
    Posts
    1,487

    Post imported post

    One of my biggest fears in this new world of drug wars and terror wars is that a no-knock warrant will be served on my apartment, like what happened to that 91 year old woman. I don't break any laws, but sometimes these things happen at the wrong address, oron a bad tip. The point is, I'm horrified that I'm going to hear the door get kicked in at night, run out to inspect, gun-in-hand, and be gunned down by police officers.

    Is there any way I can prepare for something like this? I certainly don't want to confront intruders unarmed, but if they are cops confronting them armed will almost deffinately result in my death.

    What should I do in this situation?

    I don't break any laws, so there is no reason that a valid warrant would ever be served at my apartment, but it has happened and will continue to happen. Hopefully it willnever happento me.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Tough call.

    I think the bestsolution lies in solving it before it happens to you. Google a fella named Radley Balko. He's done extensive research on this and may have some helpful thoughts.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    It is too horrible a specter for me to worry about, I've decided. That story of the old woman is a nightmare, for sure.

    I, too, violate no laws. No drugs, no booze, no fights, no nothing...OK, maybe a little speeding on the interstate.

    I'm pretty sure that there is a a very low number annuallyof no-knock warrant invasions which are totally in error. Like the one with the 91 year old woman. Maybe less than 50*? I don't really know the number but it is tiny. Of that tiny number, only a fraction (maybe 20-30%) have guns in the home. Of that yet smaller number only a fraction will actually be able to deploy the gun in time to actually do some damage to the intruders....

    So the way I think about it, I have a really really small chance of having it happen to me. The numerator is, maybe, 10 and the denominator is around 110 million. That justifies, forme, ignoring the prospect of it happening.

    Now, I know that some people like to evoke the picture of some bad guy (non-LEO) home invaders' practice of yelling "Police!" or "FBI!" as they kick in the door to the house. I'm fairly certain this really doesn't happen, that it's just a rationale that somebody cooked up so they could justify shooting at anyone who kicks in the doors of that small number of households each year.

    My thinking on it is that if it is 4 or more guys running into my home after kicking the door in, I'll just throw my gun down and take a chance that a) they're coppers, and b) somehow we can straighten it out the mistake and the inevitable litigation.

    If it's only one guy, it will be different.

    One belief ( a certainty, as far as I'm concerned) I have is that if a bunch of realLEOs are breaking into my home (and they are in the wrong place looking for the wrong guy) that the very very best strategy to use is instantaneous unconditional surrender.

    This is in normal situations, mind you, not times of lawlessness or post-Katrina like conditions.

    I agree, exp, it's a horrifying thought.

    * Does anyone know this number?

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Northern Fauquier Co, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,297

    Post imported post

    The worse situation is where home invaders pretend to be LEO's. That happens with some regularity here is a very recent one.
    http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details...amp;type=local

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    , Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    44

    Post imported post

    I've heard several times from several different (somewhat knowledgable) people that no-knock warrants aren't permitted here in PA. So if someone is breaking in, it isn't the good guys (if you can call them that anymore).

    Alot of what you read involving real police seems to indicate they rarely bother to yell "police" or "warrant" or whatever.



    Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193

    Post imported post

    There is at least one earlier thread on the paramilitarization of the American police.

    Either we are equal or we are not Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA/GOP *******

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here and There, Washington, USA
    Posts
    150

    Post imported post

    My thought would be to take a more defensive approach, figuring by the time they get back to my bedroom, they will have yelled "police" at least once. But I don’t have anyone else in my home that I need to defend, so that may not be viable for some.

    Maybe you could get a battering ram proof door. That would slow their entry to the point that they will have shouted "police," by the time you are face-to-face with them.

    This is, of course, assuming you're going to believe that they are police when they yell it out.

    Another possibility would be adding more defenses to your "castle," thru alarms, resistant doors, or a more confusing layout. Evasion is often the best defensive move. Obviously one must balance the costs versus the perceived rewards of making such changes.

  8. #8
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Stanislaus County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,586

    Post imported post

    longwatch wrote:
    The worse situation is where home invaders pretend to be LEO's. That happens with some regularity here is a very recent one.
    http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details...amp;type=local
    I too am concerned with this situation. I think I would try to inspect the intruders from good cover, and hope the cover is good enough to save my ass if it is the LEOs. If it's not, then I'm already in a good position to start defending myself.

    This could all be avoided if we didn't have no-knock warrents. Then again, most no-knock warrents are for drug offenses (read: crimes without victims), which IMO shouldn't be illegal anyhow.

    No victim = no crime. Leave peaceful people alone.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    , Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    44

    Post imported post

    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    The worse situation is where home invaders pretend to be LEO's. That happens with some regularity here is a very recent one.
    http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details...amp;type=local
    I too am concerned with this situation. I think I would try to inspect the intruders from good cover, and hope the cover is good enough to save my ass if it is the LEOs. If it's not, then I'm already in a good position to start defending myself.

    This could all be avoided if we didn't have no-knock warrents. Then again, most no-knock warrents are for drug offenses (read: crimes without victims), which IMO shouldn't be illegal anyhow.

    No victim = no crime. Leave peaceful people alone.
    I've only seen the show SWAT a couple times, but it seems all they do is serve drug warrants. And that entire Cato article only involves drug warrants.

  10. #10
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    hlh wrote:
    Since there's know way of knowing whether it's really the cops or impersonators I would have to err on the side of caution; shoot first and sort it out later. If real cops, including FBI, would knock on the door, and serve the warrant, I would let them in politely.
    Let's play this out. Six guys* are breaking down your doors. Say, 3 in the front and 3 at your back door. You hear the noises of breaking glass and wood, grab your .45...you even grab an extra mag...you rush from the bedroom into the living room. Amid all the noise, the lights, the sounds....you start firing at the figures and lights near the front door.....then....

    What's next, hlh?

    What happens next? What do you think?

    When does the "sorting it out" part happen?



    * These guys are, in fact,bona fide LEOs who have been erroneously and stupidly sent to your home address in error to conduct a no-knock warrant search of some drug dealer who is known to be armed.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA, ,
    Posts
    1,487

    Post imported post

    HankT wrote:
    Now, I know that some people like to evoke the picture of some bad guy (non-LEO) home invaders' practice of yelling "Police!" or "FBI!" as they kick in the door to the house. I'm fairly certain this really doesn't happen, that it's just a rationale that somebody cooked up so they could justify shooting at anyone who kicks in the doors of that small number of households each year.
    I can understand why you would think that. I don't have a link and I don't know if it even made the news (I doubt it), but some drug dealers "raided" some other drug dealers and stole their supply in my home town, pretending to be a swat team. This is just rumor, but I believe it.

    For a little more credible story, longwatch posted something.

    But that's exactly the dilema I'm facing. If they are cops, I deffinately don't want to shoot them (or make them shoot me). If they aren't cops, then they are dangerous enough that I could be in serious danger if I don't shoot them. I remember watching a special on the history channel about a gang that dressed like a swat team and served no-knock warrants. They were very violent too.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Superstition Mountain, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    424

    Post imported post

    No offense, but a safe could fall on your head, too. I would guess the odds are just about equal that you will ever encounter either of those scenarios.

    And, in either of those scenarios, I guess you could end up dead. The only question is how you want to get killed.

    I'll probably go out with guns blazing. I haven't broken any laws that would bring anyone to my house, so if they do come, it's their mistake. I won't pay for it alone.....

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    2,247

    Post imported post

    While I admit it is possible the odds of it happening in my home are so small that I don't worry about it. I think you can reduce the odds of the police using a no-knock warrant on your home by where you live. Usually these errors are because of a wrong house number or street name. (beware of living on any street with peach in the name in Atlanta which limits you). If you live in an apartment complex where there are regular busts your chances are much greater than if you live in a gated community of soccer moms. If it does happen you are going to be up the creek no matter what. If it is the cops and you try to defend yourself then :what:but if they are fake cops then . Just hope it doesn't happen and keep a gurad dog that sleeps lightly with a big bark.:celebrate

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    It is hard to get a no knock warrant and you have to have to get a judge to sign off on it. This is obviously designed to prevent the police from doing it all the time.

    I do not know of any no knock warrants that were done on any minor crimes either. No Knocks are really limited to the real bad people and when evidence can be destroyed like drugs.

    Have no knock warrants been served on the wrong house? I am not sure since I do not hear about them happening that often. I knowthat regular warrants have been served on the wrong house so mistakes can happen when a human does any task.

    What happens if your house is entered with a no knock???

    Well, is your house a mistake or are they really looking at youfor a crime. Maybe YOU did not break the law but what about your spouse or roommate?

    On entry they will be yelling "POLICE, SHERIFF, Search warrant!!" If you shoot at them and they are for real.... you could be in big trouble... even if it was the wrong house.

    What are the odds that your house will be the target? Not that good.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    hlh wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    On entry they will be yelling "POLICE, SHERIFF, Search warrant!!" If you shoot at them and they are for real.... you could be in big trouble... even if it was the wrong house.
    What if the "bad guys" shout this and are wearing "police" or "FBI" shirts and hats?
    What if an unmarked car pulls up behind you and turns on a blue light? You have no way of knowing the guy is a real cop till you speak with him.

    You can run..... submitting that people buy used cop cars and dress them up with blue lights. Your still going to be charged with eluding.

    § 46.2-817. Disregarding signal by law-enforcement officer to stop; eluding police; penalties.

    This is a classic case of "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't"

    Fortunately.... I have not read about criminals dressing up as cops to do a home invasion so I do not think this should be a big concern.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA, ,
    Posts
    1,487

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    It is hard to get a no knock warrant and you have to have to get a judge to sign off on it. This is obviously designed to prevent the police from doing it all the time.
    That's funny because I was watching "Dallas Swat" and it seems that they serve several no-knock warrants each day on people that usually only end up having a small bag of crack. Doesn't seem like they're avaoiding knocking on Ted Bundy's door to me.
    Fortunately.... I have not read about criminals dressing up as cops to do a home invasion so I do not think this should be a big concern.
    Did you read longwatch's post? There was a link to a story. You can't seriously say that you've never read anything about criminals wearing shirts that say "swat" and knocking down doors. It happens too frequently for an LEO to be unaware of it.
    What if an unmarked car pulls up behind you and turns on a blue light? You have no way of knowing the guy is a real cop till you speak with him.
    (off topic question) I've also wondered about this. I had always believed that if an unmarked car tried to pull me over, I would continue to drive the speed limit until either a marked police car arrived, or I was in a well lit/populated area. I always thought that this was a good idea for safety reasons, and that an officer would understand after I explained. Is this a bad idea?From what your saying, they can arrest me for evading, but my question is, as an LEO, do you think that they would, after I explained not wanting to pull over for an unmarked without being in a well lit area?


    Fake police officer in full uniform arrested
    http://www.thetidenews.com/article.a...ND%20JUDICIARY

    Two fake FEMALE cops rob, assaultand car-jack a victim
    http://winnipegsun.com/News/Winnipeg...5/4577963.html

    Man impersonating police officer pulls over skeptical driver
    http://www.wsbt.com/news/10741131.html

    Police impersonator sexually assaults child
    http://www.nbc4.com/news/14395910/detail.html

    Police impersonator wanted for pulling over drivers + advise on how to avoid situation
    http://www.ifallsdailyjournal.com/node/5349

    Two wanted police impersonators commiting armed robberies
    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/5...rs0925.article

    Police find cop lights, fake gun, handcuffs, badges in car of suspect
    http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.a...p;nav=0RcedS27

    Man impersonates federal agent on numerous occassions
    http://community.emeraldcoast.com/ar...ral_agent.html



    All of these eventshappened in the last 2 weeks.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Illinois, USA
    Posts
    778

    Post imported post

    best answer is just to ban no knocks, with a few carefully tailored exceptions. the place to do this isin the legislature

    in the meantime, you can lobby your local mayor and sheriff to do so via internal policy.

    this is NOT a police problem. it is a political one, and needs to be addressed there. the limit of police power is determined in the political arena, as it should be. politicians have been allowed off the hook on these kinds of issues for far too long.

  18. #18
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Just a "wannabe" in Mtn. Top, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    1,441

    Post imported post

    expvideo wrote:
    ... I had always believed that if an unmarked car tried to pull me over, I would continue to drive the speed limit until either a marked police car arrived, or I was in a well lit/populated area. I always thought that this was a good idea for safety reasons,

    It is a good idea..
    But the correct procedure is to call 911 and report a civilian vehicle trying to pull you over. If it is legit they should be able to tell you that If not then they will send marked vehicles to intercept.

    Exception would be if you have no cell phone (not likely, right?) To which I anxiously await 229'sresponse to your Q


  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA, ,
    Posts
    1,487

    Post imported post

    I edited my last post to include news articles. These are from a simple google news search of "fake police" and "impersonation police". All of the stories happened in the last 2 weeks. There were more, these are just the interesting ones.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Silverdale, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,532

    Post imported post

    Here's everything you didn't want to know about no-knock raids. Frightening stuff....

  21. #21
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Greene County
    Posts
    3,844

    Post imported post


    call the police from your cell and let them know your location ask/demand a marked car

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  22. #22
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Elgin, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,202

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    What if an unmarked car pulls up behind you and turns on a blue light? You have no way of knowing the guy is a real cop till you speak with him.

    You can run..... submitting that people buy used cop cars and dress them up with blue lights. Your still going to be charged with eluding.

    § 46.2-817. Disregarding signal by law-enforcement officer to stop; eluding police; penalties.

    This is a classic case of "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't"

    Fortunately.... I have not read about criminals dressing up as cops to do a home invasion so I do not think this should be a big concern.

    They was a major outbreak of impersonations in the Chicago area several years back and the state police advised youto pull away, travel at normal speeds, obey all traffic laws and proceed to the nearest police station of populated area such as a mall or place where many people will be present. This was specifically for cases involving unmarked cars not bearing "official" plates or unmarked cars with non-uniformed people exiting the vehicle.

    When taking their advise, my only question is: where does fleeing and/or eluding come into this equation?



  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    2,247

    Post imported post

    There was a case here in SC that made national news a few years ago. Highway Patrolman tried to stop a lady on the I-95 and she claimed she was looking for asafe place to stop. Problem was she drove 25 miles past 6 exits and the LEO was in a marked car with lights flashing during broad daylight. The entire thing was filmed.

    When she finally stopped he went crazy on her and was fired. Part of it was also a race issue that he was fired but the LEO did lose control.

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193

    Post imported post

    lockman wrote:
    When taking their advise, my only question is: where does fleeing and/or eluding come into this equation?
    You mean like OJ's low-speed evasion? No shots were fired.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA, ,
    Posts
    1,487

    Post imported post

    Doug Huffman wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    When taking their advise, my only question is: where does fleeing and/or eluding come into this equation?
    You mean like OJ's low-speed evasion? No shots were fired.
    I don't think shots being fired has anything to do with this. I'm talking about not pulling over until a marked police car arrives, not shooting out a tire, lol

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •