No knock warrants

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One of my biggest fears in this new world of drug wars and terror wars is that a no-knock warrant will be served on my apartment, like what happened to that 91 year old woman. I don't break any laws, but sometimes these things happen at the wrong address, oron a bad tip. The point is, I'm horrified that I'm going to hear the door get kicked in at night, run out to inspect, gun-in-hand, and be gunned down by police officers.

Is there any way I can prepare for something like this? I certainly don't want to confront intruders unarmed, but if they are cops confronting them armed will almost deffinately result in my death.

What should I do in this situation?

I don't break any laws, so there is no reason that a valid warrant would ever be served at my apartment, but it has happened and will continue to happen. Hopefully it willnever happento me.

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Tough call.

I think the bestsolution lies in solving it before it happens to you. Google a fella named Radley Balko. He's done extensive research on this and may have some helpful thoughts.

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It is too horrible a specter for me to worry about, I've decided. That story of the old woman is a nightmare, for sure.

I, too, violate no laws. No drugs, no booze, no fights, no nothing...OK, maybe a little speeding on the interstate.

I'm pretty sure that there is a a very low number annuallyof no-knock warrant invasions which are totally in error. Like the one with the 91 year old woman. Maybe less than 50*? I don't really know the number but it is tiny. Of that tiny number, only a fraction (maybe 20-30%) have guns in the home. Of that yet smaller number only a fraction will actually be able to deploy the gun in time to actually do some damage to the intruders....

So the way I think about it, I have a really really small chance of having it happen to me. The numerator is, maybe, 10 and the denominator is around 110 million. That justifies, forme, ignoring the prospect of it happening.

Now, I know that some people like to evoke the picture of some bad guy (non-LEO) home invaders' practice of yelling "Police!" or "FBI!" as they kick in the door to the house. I'm fairly certain this really doesn't happen, that it's just a rationale that somebody cooked up so they could justify shooting at anyone who kicks in the doors of that small number of households each year.

My thinking on it is that if it is 4 or more guys running into my home after kicking the door in, I'll just throw my gun down and take a chance that a) they're coppers, and b) somehow we can straighten it out the mistake and the inevitable litigation.

If it's only one guy, it will be different.

One belief ( a certainty, as far as I'm concerned) I have is that if a bunch of realLEOs are breaking into my home (and they are in the wrong place looking for the wrong guy) that the very very best strategy to use is instantaneous unconditional surrender.

This is in normal situations, mind you, not times of lawlessness or post-Katrina like conditions.

I agree, exp, it's a horrifying thought.

* Does anyone know this number?

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The worse situation is where home invaders pretend to be LEO's. That happens with some regularity here is a very recent one.
http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details.php?newsID=2500&type=local

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I've heard several times from several different (somewhat knowledgable) people that no-knock warrants aren't permitted here in PA. So if someone is breaking in, it isn't the good guys (if you can call them that anymore).

Alot of what you read involving real police seems to indicate they rarely bother to yell "police" or "warrant" or whatever.



Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

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There is at least one earlier thread on the paramilitarization of the American police.

Either we are equal or we are not Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA/GOP KMA$$

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My thought would be to take a more defensive approach, figuring by the time they get back to my bedroom, they will have yelled "police" at least once. But I don’t have anyone else in my home that I need to defend, so that may not be viable for some.

Maybe you could get a battering ram proof door. That would slow their entry to the point that they will have shouted "police," by the time you are face-to-face with them.

This is, of course, assuming you're going to believe that they are police when they yell it out.

Another possibility would be adding more defenses to your "castle," thru alarms, resistant doors, or a more confusing layout. Evasion is often the best defensive move. Obviously one must balance the costs versus the perceived rewards of making such changes.

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longwatch wrote:

The worse situation is where home invaders pretend to be LEO's. That happens with some regularity here is a very recent one.
http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details.php?newsID=2500&type=local

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I too am concerned with this situation. I think I would try to inspect the intruders from good cover, and hope the cover is good enough to save my ass if it is the LEOs. If it's not, then I'm already in a good position to start defending myself.

This could all be avoided if we didn't have no-knock warrents. Then again, most no-knock warrents are for drug offenses (read: crimes without victims), which IMO shouldn't be illegal anyhow.

No victim = no crime. Leave peaceful people alone.

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

longwatch wrote:

The worse situation is where home invaders pretend to be LEO's. That happens with some regularity here is a very recent one.
http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details.php?newsID=2500&type=local

Click to expand...

I too am concerned with this situation. I think I would try to inspect the intruders from good cover, and hope the cover is good enough to save my ass if it is the LEOs. If it's not, then I'm already in a good position to start defending myself.

This could all be avoided if we didn't have no-knock warrents. Then again, most no-knock warrents are for drug offenses (read: crimes without victims), which IMO shouldn't be illegal anyhow.

No victim = no crime. Leave peaceful people alone.

Click to expand...

I've only seen the show SWAT a couple times, but it seems all they do is serve drug warrants. And that entire Cato article only involves drug warrants.

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hlh wrote:

Since there's know way of knowing whether it's really the cops or impersonators I would have to err on the side of caution; shoot first and sort it out later. If real cops, including FBI, would knock on the door, and serve the warrant, I would let them in politely.

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Let's play this out. Six guys* are breaking down your doors. Say, 3 in the front and 3 at your back door. You hear the noises of breaking glass and wood, grab your .45...you even grab an extra mag...you rush from the bedroom into the living room. Amid all the noise, the lights, the sounds....you start firing at the figures and lights near the front door.....then....

What's next, hlh?

What happens next? What do you think?

When does the "sorting it out" part happen?



* These guys are, in fact,bona fide LEOs who have been erroneously and stupidly sent to your home address in error to conduct a no-knock warrant search of some drug dealer who is known to be armed.

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HankT wrote:

Now, I know that some people like to evoke the picture of some bad guy (non-LEO) home invaders' practice of yelling "Police!" or "FBI!" as they kick in the door to the house. I'm fairly certain this really doesn't happen, that it's just a rationale that somebody cooked up so they could justify shooting at anyone who kicks in the doors of that small number of households each year.

Click to expand...

I can understand why you would think that. I don't have a link and I don't know if it even made the news (I doubt it), but some drug dealers "raided" some other drug dealers and stole their supply in my home town, pretending to be a swat team. This is just rumor, but I believe it.

For a little more credible story, longwatch posted something.

But that's exactly the dilema I'm facing. If they are cops, I deffinately don't want to shoot them (or make them shoot me). If they aren't cops, then they are dangerous enough that I could be in serious danger if I don't shoot them. I remember watching a special on the history channel about a gang that dressed like a swat team and served no-knock warrants. They were very violent too.

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No offense, but a safe could fall on your head, too. I would guess the odds are just about equal that you will ever encounter either of those scenarios.

And, in either of those scenarios, I guess you could end up dead. The only question is how you want to get killed.

I'll probably go out with guns blazing. I haven't broken any laws that would bring anyone to my house, so if they do come, it's their mistake. I won't pay for it alone.....

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While I admit it is possible the odds of it happening in my home are so small that I don't worry about it. I think you can reduce the odds of the police using a no-knock warrant on your home by where you live. Usually these errors are because of a wrong house number or street name. (beware of living on any street with peach in the name in Atlanta which limits you:cuss. If you live in an apartment complex where there are regular busts your chances are much greater than if you live in a gated community of soccer moms. :dude: If it does happen you are going to be up the creek no matter what. If it is the cops and you try to defend yourself then :what:but if they are fake cops then :uhoh:. Just hope it doesn't happen and keep a gurad dog that sleeps lightly with a big bark.:celebrate

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It is hard to get a no knock warrant and you have to have to get a judge to sign off on it. This is obviously designed to prevent the police from doing it all the time.

I do not know of any no knock warrants that were done on any minor crimes either. No Knocks are really limited to the real bad people and when evidence can be destroyed like drugs.

Have no knock warrants been served on the wrong house? I am not sure since I do not hear about them happening that often. I knowthat regular warrants have been served on the wrong house so mistakes can happen when a human does any task.

What happens if your house is entered with a no knock???

Well, is your house a mistake or are they really looking at youfor a crime. Maybe YOU did not break the law but what about your spouse or roommate?

On entry they will be yelling "POLICE, SHERIFF, Search warrant!!" If you shoot at them and they are for real.... you could be in big trouble... even if it was the wrong house.

What are the odds that your house will be the target? Not that good.

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hlh wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

On entry they will be yelling "POLICE, SHERIFF, Search warrant!!" If you shoot at them and they are for real.... you could be in big trouble... even if it was the wrong house.

Click to expand...

What if the "bad guys" shout this and are wearing "police" or "FBI" shirts and hats?

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What if an unmarked car pulls up behind you and turns on a blue light? You have no way of knowing the guy is a real cop till you speak with him.

You can run..... submitting that people buy used cop cars and dress them up with blue lights. Your still going to be charged with eluding.

§ 46.2-817. Disregarding signal by law-enforcement officer to stop; eluding police; penalties.

This is a classic case of "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't"

Fortunately.... I have not read about criminals dressing up as cops to do a home invasion so I do not think this should be a big concern.

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LEO 229 wrote:

It is hard to get a no knock warrant and you have to have to get a judge to sign off on it. This is obviously designed to prevent the police from doing it all the time.

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That's funny because I was watching "Dallas Swat" and it seems that they serve several no-knock warrants each day on people that usually only end up having a small bag of crack. Doesn't seem like they're avaoiding knocking on Ted Bundy's door to me.

Fortunately.... I have not read about criminals dressing up as cops to do a home invasion so I do not think this should be a big concern.

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Did you read longwatch's post? There was a link to a story. You can't seriously say that you've never read anything about criminals wearing shirts that say "swat" and knocking down doors. It happens too frequently for an LEO to be unaware of it.

What if an unmarked car pulls up behind you and turns on a blue light? You have no way of knowing the guy is a real cop till you speak with him.

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(off topic question) I've also wondered about this. I had always believed that if an unmarked car tried to pull me over, I would continue to drive the speed limit until either a marked police car arrived, or I was in a well lit/populated area. I always thought that this was a good idea for safety reasons, and that an officer would understand after I explained. Is this a bad idea?From what your saying, they can arrest me for evading, but my question is, as an LEO, do you think that they would, after I explained not wanting to pull over for an unmarked without being in a well lit area?


Fake police officer in full uniform arrested
http://www.thetidenews.com/article.aspx?qrDate=10/19/2007&qrTitle=Fake%20police%20officer%20jailed%20for%20impersonation&qrColumn=LAW%20AND%20JUDICIARY

Two fake FEMALE cops rob, assaultand car-jack a victim
http://winnipegsun.com/News/Winnipeg/2007/10/15/4577963.html

Man impersonating police officer pulls over skeptical driver
http://www.wsbt.com/news/10741131.html

Police impersonator sexually assaults child
http://www.nbc4.com/news/14395910/detail.html

Police impersonator wanted for pulling over drivers + advise on how to avoid situation
http://www.ifallsdailyjournal.com/node/5349

Two wanted police impersonators commiting armed robberies
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/573337,impersonators0925.article

Police find cop lights, fake gun, handcuffs, badges in car of suspect
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7226441&nav=0RcedS27

Man impersonates federal agent on numerous occassions
http://community.emeraldcoast.com/articles/hamrick_19459___article.html/federal_agent.html



All of these eventshappened in the last 2 weeks.

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best answer is just to ban no knocks, with a few carefully tailored exceptions. the place to do this isin the legislature

in the meantime, you can lobby your local mayor and sheriff to do so via internal policy.

this is NOT a police problem. it is a political one, and needs to be addressed there. the limit of police power is determined in the political arena, as it should be. politicians have been allowed off the hook on these kinds of issues for far too long.

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expvideo wrote:

... I had always believed that if an unmarked car tried to pull me over, I would continue to drive the speed limit until either a marked police car arrived, or I was in a well lit/populated area. I always thought that this was a good idea for safety reasons,

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It is a good idea..
But the correct procedure is to call 911 and report a civilian vehicle trying to pull you over. If it is legit they should be able to tell you that If not then they will send marked vehicles to intercept.

Exception would be if you have no cell phone (not likely, right?) To which I anxiously await 229'sresponse to your Q

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I edited my last post to include news articles. These are from a simple google news search of "fake police" and "impersonation police". All of the stories happened in the last 2 weeks. There were more, these are just the interesting ones.

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Here's everything you didn't want to know about no-knock raids. Frightening stuff....