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Thread: Who wants signs proclaiming property rights?

  1. #1
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    I saw this sign on Wikipedia. It was custom-made by a North Carolina property owner. I am considering having some made to reflect Arizona law. If you would perhaps be interested in purchasing one, please let me know so that I may estimate demand.

    Here's a picture of the sign in question:
    Code:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Defense_of_Habitation_citation.JPG
    Sorry, the message board gets overzealous with smilies and doesn't like the in the above URL.

    Here's a link to the new (April 24, 2006) Arizona law: http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument..../laws/0199.htm

  2. #2
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    Any chance of making up signs with the statutes for the individual states seeing as how the law codes ect vary from state to state? I'd be in for one lol.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Here is one I made in Microsoft Word for TN
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    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    I'd like one in Nevada, but unfortunately we have no such state law. Although police and prosecutors have shown common sense (it's not murder when it's self-defense) in this area, no law on the books means an overzealous prosecutor could bring charges against any would-be victim of a violent crime.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Version 2

    Top has white letters and red background more like the one in NC
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    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Couldn't you get charged with pre-meditated murder if you put this sign up and then shoot someone.

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    blacks13hb wrote:
    Couldn't you get charged with pre-meditated murder if you put this sign up and then shoot someone.
    That's like saying one could be charged with pre-meditated murder for purchasing a firearm for "home protection" and then shooting an intruder. I didn't buy it to put it in a drawer and forget about it. I bought it to shoot someone who is trying to hurt me or my family.

    But I think the real point is that it's not murder in the first place. The law in NC where this sign is posted clearly allows the homeowner to use whatever force the homeowner determines to be necessary. Since it's not murder, the aggrevated or pre-meditated charge wouldn't apply.

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    NO...not at all

    T.C.A. 36-11-611(c) says....

    Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury within a residence, dwelling or vehicle is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury to self, family, a member of the household or a person visiting as an invited guest, when that force is used against another person, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence, dwelling or vehicle, and the person using defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred. (emphasis added)


    Now...by no means am I condoning shoot everyone that walks in the door. But if some breaks into your house...you can use deadly force immediately if you choose to.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Thx a lot for clearing that up. I just recently bought my first gun and want to get familiar with the laws so that I can assure the safety of my family and community.



    Thx again for all the much needed and helpful info.

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    What state are you in?

    I would caution you that state laws are very different. For example, here in Nevada, if I were to post that sign, I fear it would constitute a threat of bodily harm (since there is no state law I can reference regarding self defense).

    Before posting such a sign, research whether doing so would be against the laws in your state.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Ok...I'm still messing around with the file. Here is one that is worded a little differently.


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    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    I'm in AZ and currently looking at the ARS to learn more about the laws. That las sign looks like it would cause less problems.



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    blacks13hb wrote:
    I'm in AZ and currently looking at the ARS to learn more about the laws. That las sign looks like it would cause less problems.




    What you might be looking for is ARS 13-418.

    13-418. Justification; use of force in defense of residential structure or occupied vehicles; definitions

    A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, a person is justified in threatening to use or using physical force or deadly physical force against another person if the person reasonably believes himself or another person to be in imminent peril of death or serious physical injury and the person against whom the physical force or deadly physical force is threatened or used was in the process of unlawfully or forcefully entering, or had unlawfully or forcefully entered, a residential structure or occupied vehicle, or had removed or was attempting to remove another person against the other person's will from the residential structure or occupied vehicle.

    B. A person has no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force pursuant to this section.

    C. For the purposes of this section:

    1. "Residential structure" has the same meaning prescribed in section 13-1501.

    2. "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport persons or property.



    The presumption part can be found in ARS 13-419.

    13-419. Presumption; exceptions; definitions

    A. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of sections 13-404 through 13-408 and section 13-418 if the person is acting against another person who unlawfully or forcefully enters or entered the person's residential structure or occupied vehicle, except that the presumption does not apply if:

    1. The person against whom physical force or deadly physical force was used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the residential structure or occupied vehicle, including an owner, lessee, invitee or titleholder, and an order of protection or injunction against harassment has not been filed against that person.

    2. The person against whom the physical force or deadly physical force was used is the parent or grandparent, or has legal custody or guardianship, of a child or grandchild sought to be removed from the residential structure or occupied vehicle.

    3. The person who uses physical force or deadly physical force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the residential structure or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity.

    4. The person against whom the physical force or deadly physical force was used is a law enforcement officer who enters or attempts to enter a residential structure or occupied vehicle in the performance of official duties.

    B. For the purposes of this section:

    1. "Residential structure" has the same meaning prescribed in section 13-1501.

    2. "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport persons or property.

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    So a sign for AZ might look something like this.

    You could also change the word "will" to "may" if you want to be more friendly.
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    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Very nice!

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    blacks13hb wrote:
    I'm in AZ and currently looking at the ARS to learn more about the laws. That las sign looks like it would cause less problems.
    blacks13hb, stop in one of your local gun stores or get on Amazon and get a copy of "The Arizona Gun Owner's Guide." Probably the best book you can own, living in Arizona. That should answer all of your questions about keeping and carrying a gun here.

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I had a sign years ago on my side door that read:
    WARNING
    Trespassers Will Be Shot
    Survivors Will Be Shot Again
    My liability insurance agent, a personal friend, almost had a heart attack when he saw it and virtually demanded that it come down immediately. He said that the company and maybe law enforcement would see it as premeditation. We do not have the right/privilege of using deadly force to protect property in Va.

    Something to consider.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    That is bad Grapeshot. Not that I didn't believe you, but I was going to see what I could find myself on handgunlaw.us That is where I found AZ's and some other states.And for Deadly Force laws it hadunknown for which laws cover it. Sort of weird for a Gold Star open carry state.

    And just to clarify the laws I have posted about TN and AZ only cover someone unlawfully entering or attempting to enter your residence, dwelling or a car. NOT just walking across your yard.

    Probably shouldn't say this on an open forum...but my dad use to always say, "Shoot them in the yard and drag them in the house." Of course that was before the days of CSI etc....lol
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Fallguy wrote:
    That is bad Grapeshot. Not that I didn't believe you, but I was going to see what I could find myself on handgunlaw.us That is where I found AZ's and some other states.And for Deadly Force laws it hadunknown for which laws cover it. Sort of weird for a Gold Star open carry state.

    And just to clarify the laws I have posted about TN and AZ only cover someone unlawfully entering or attempting to enter your residence, dwelling or a car. NOT just walking across your yard.

    Probably shouldn't say this on an open forum...but my dad use to always say, "Shoot them in the yard and drag them in the house." Of course that was before the days of CSI etc....lol
    Deadly force can only be used by Virginia citizens to protect a life or prevent serious bodily harm - never for the protection of property.

    Case law carries this even further with disallowing even brandishing to protect your property. http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

    There are other applications of case law of course but it may well have to be settled in court with attorneys, time and lots of money.

    Yes, we enjoy some measure of success on shall issue and open carry but there is still much work to be done.

    P.S. Never, never alter or tamper with what will become evidence. That will, repeat will, rise up and bite you in the posterior.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Deadly force can only be used by Virginia citizens to protect a life or prevent serious bodily harm - never for the protection of property.
    Well that is pretty much the same in TN. There is just a presumption in the law that states if the person forcibly enters yourhouse the law assumesyou are in fear ofserious bodily harm ordeath. So that in the heat of the moment you don't have to try and figure out what his intentions are and possible wait till it's too late. But not if the person is simply onyour property. Then there is no presumption.

    As far as the first case in your link..in TN a situation like that is directly addressed by statute and it not allowed byT.C.A. 39-11-611(d)(1) says...

    (d) The presumption established in subsection (c) shall not apply, if:

    (1) The person against whom the force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder; provided, that the person is not prohibited from entering the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle by an order of protection, injunction for protection from domestic abuse, or a court order of no contact against that person;

    As far as my little joke....that's all it was...lol
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I understand the presumption inside your home or vehicle but it is not statute here yet. We do hope to see "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand your ground" come to Va. This would solve many conflicts in case law and protect a citizen using deadly force from civil suit if not found guilty of a criminal act (over simplification).

    In my personal opinion, advertising such intent in advance might become a prosecuting attorneys dream - at least in Virginia.

    Nothing personal intended in my previous P.S. statement - it was more of a reaction/observation.

    Yata hey




    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Nothing personal taken. I wish you the best of luck in getting the Castle Doctrine passed in VA. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen at some point.

    I sort of agree on the sign. Sort of like the whole CC or OC debate has some advantages and disadvantages. ..and I wouldn't post a sign like this in VA or any other state that doesn't have the castle doctrine.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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