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Thread: OC in southern York County?

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    Hello I am new here. I actually live in Maryland, but I am so close to the state line that I am in PA alot. About a month, maybe longer, ago I was at a Chinese place in Shrewsbury and saw a plain clothes guy with a little girl and he had what looked like a Glock on his side. Couldn't tell if he was LE or not and didn't ask. He was at the counter to pick up food, so I couldn't see if he had a badge on the front of his belt or anything.



    After I leftI was really wondering " did I just see a citizen open carrying?".

    I am also wondering can someone from out of state come into PA ( or VA even for that matter) and OC? Can you OC a protective handgun while hunting or trapping ( not for actually hunting or using to dispatch trapped citters- but for the possibility of meth lab operators, or crazies running around in the woods- and let me note thatI am female and being alone in an isolated place could be bad)?

    I have heard that oc-ing can be problematic in some parts of PA, that cops give a hard time, and can even ticket you for disturbing the peace if some frightened sheeple call them on a " someone is walking around with a gun".



    Anyway, I am just curious about all this.



    Also wondering about nonres of PA with a FL nr ccw permit being harrassed by LE in PA, even though PA recognizes the FL nr permit through riciprocity. I can't even pray to get a MD ccw, so a PA nonres one is out. Seems the York co sheriff's dept is unclear on the riciprocity deal and may be one to harrass someone over it.

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    You may have, though it's impossible to say.

    My local game warden told my I need a LTCF (PA calls it a 'License To Carry Firearms' rather than CCP, etc.) to carry open or concealed while hunting. This may or may not be correct based on state law, but expect to be asked if approached by a Wildlife Conservation Officer.

    Also, while open carry on foot is legal without a license, the interior of a vehicle is considered 'concealed', even if the weapon is laying on the dashboard in full view.

    The law provides for legal transport of an unloaded weapon to from your home/business/range/gunsmith. Unfortunately it doesn't cover running errands all day. Even though you can legally OC while on foot, there is no legal way for you to transport your weapon between stops.

    I OC almost all of the time, but have my LTCF so I can legally transport my weapon while doing so. This also affords me the luxury of retaining the weapon on my person rather than unloading and casing it, regardless of where I'm going.

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    Also, while open carry on foot is legal without a license, the interior of a vehicle is considered 'concealed', even if the weapon is laying on the dashboard in full view.

    The law provides for legal transport of an unloaded weapon to from your home/business/range/gunsmith. Unfortunately it doesn't cover running errands all day. Even though you can legally OC while on foot, there is no legal way for you to transport your weapon between stops.
    That's actually not accurate...

    In PA, a person needs a license in order to carry a firearm in a motor vehicle or concealed. An exception to that rule is if one has a firearms' permit from any US state, one can carry in a vehicle as long as it isn't concealed. And only PA LTCF or equivalent allows for OC or CC in Philadelphia.

    Also, there are no PA laws governing "transport" of a firearm. The laws you're referencing are referring to "carry" of an unloaded firearm. As long as your gun is unloaded and your gun and ammo are in separate areas, you should be good for transport. The concern, however, is that one would have to load whenever exiting the vehicle and unload when entering it... and handling a gun while in a parking lot may arouse some suspicion that may not otherwise be present when OCing.

    Code:
    § 6106.  Firearms not to be carried without a license.
    (a)  Offense defined.--
    (1)  Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who
    carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a
    firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place
    of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and
    lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony
    of the third degree.
    (2)  A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a
    valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any
    vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or
    about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place
    of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and
    has not committed any other criminal violation commits a
    misdemeanor of the first degree.
    (b)  Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not
    apply to:
    (11)  Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle,
    which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license
    for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the
    United States or any other state.

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    In PA, a person needs a license in order to carry a firearm in a motor vehicle or concealed.
    Good catch. I definitely mis-spoke, though the requirement for having the LTCF still applies (unless qualifying for an exemption allowed under the UFA).

    Also, there are no PA laws governing "transport" of a firearm. The laws you're referencing are referring to "carry" of an unloaded firearm. As long as your gun is unloaded and your gun and ammo are in separate areas, you should be good for transport.
    While technically correct, the surrounding language of the UFA seems to imply more than having the weapon on your person. Webster's defines both 'carry' and 'transport' as "conveying an item from one place to another". Also, in my own reading of exemption paragraph (8), it seems pretty clear these are limitations for weapons being in vehicles, even if in an unloaded state.

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(6)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. §6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
    Are you suggesting that I can keep a weapon (unloaded & seperate from ammo) in my vehicle at all times, and as long as it's not concealed, I'm legal without a LTCF? Could be, but this point seems more ambiguous to me than the often discussed legality of carrying on school grounds under the "other lawful purpose" defense.

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    In PA, a person needs a license in order to carry a firearm in a motor vehicle or concealed.
    Good catch. I definitely mis-spoke, though the requirement for having the LTCF still applies (unless qualifying for an exemption allowed under the UFA).

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(6)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. §6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
    Are you suggesting that I can keep a weapon (unloaded & seperate from ammo) in my vehicle at all times, and as long as it's not concealed, I'm legal without a LTCF? Could be, but this point seems more ambiguous to me than the often discussed legality of carrying on school grounds under the "other lawful purpose" defense.
    As for point one, it comes into play when someone has a LTCF (or CCW/CHP) from a state that doesn't have reciprocity with PA. They can still OC in a vehicle with any United States LTCF.

    As for the second point, I used to get hung up on the wording. Even if you take the wording of Exception 8 as relating to transport, running errands consists of going from one place of business to another, no? It is impossibly vague, but it would be my hope that a court would give the benefit of the doubt to the accused. And with the state of things here in PA, it's more likely that one will get cited for firearms violations by the Game Commission than the police...

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    XD40, take it from me as I work in Philadelphia. You will MOST CERTAINLY get harrassed by the Philadelphia Police Department if you OPEN CARRY in Philly. They will, without any uncertainty, relieve you of your firearm, remove your clip and the chambered round. Some officers are aware of reciprocity with Florida and others are not. While detaining you they will call into headquarters to verify reciprocity and the validity of the Florida CCW. Once all checks out okay they will return your weapon, clip and un-chambered bullet to you and tell you NOT to insert your clip into your weapon until they've gone.

    If you are placed under arrest for ANYTHING they can think of you will have a very, very, very difficult time trying to recover your weapon EVEN if you are found innocent of the charges. You will most certainly need an attorney to get the weapon back.





    Jersey



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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    gnbrotz wrote:

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(6)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. §6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
    Even if you take the wording of Exception 8 as relating to transport, running errands consists of going from one place of business to another, no? It is impossibly vague, but it would be my hope that a court would give the benefit of the doubt to the accused. And with the state of things here in PA, it's more likely that one will get cited for firearms violations by the Game Commission than the police...
    Again, because it specifically refers to "his home or place of business" three times, my belief is that it was grammatical expediency, rather than intended expanded permissions that facilitated the ommision from the "from one place of abode or business to another" portion.

    I agree that it is indeed quite vague. While this may or may not be helpful if one ends up in court, I'd prefer a law that was specifically clear, even if I disagreed with the intent of the law. At least then we could confidently know where we stood in matters such as this.

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    Jersey Ron wrote:
    XD40, take it from me as I work in Philadelphia. You will MOST CERTAINLY get harrassed by the Philadelphia Police Department if you OPEN CARRY in Philly. They will, without any uncertainty, relieve you of your firearm, remove your clip and the chambered round. Some officers are aware of reciprocity with Florida and others are not. While detaining you they will call into headquarters to verify reciprocity and the validity of the Florida CCW. Once all checks out okay they will return your weapon, clip and un-chambered bullet to you and tell you NOT to insert your clip into your weapon until they've gone.

    If you are placed under arrest for ANYTHING they can think of you will have a very, very, very difficult time trying to recover your weapon EVEN if you are found innocent of the charges. You will most certainly need an attorney to get the weapon back.
    Which brings up the vital imporatance of carrying a recorder. And Title 18, Sections 5301 and 6106, as well as Commonwealth v. Hawkins (1996) and Commonwealth v. Ortiz (1996). Oh, and reporting your gun stolen as soon as it is stolen... is there maybe some sort of BATFE hotline for doing this to go over the heads of the Philadelphia police?

    I'll admit, I kind of get off to "L"EOs getting roasted for breaking the law...

    Once I get around to turning 21, and getting enough money to retain a good attorney, perhaps I'll see how the Philadelphia police deal with a person lawfully open carrying a legal sawed-off shotgun...

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    gnbrotz wrote:

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(6)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. §6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
    Even if you take the wording of Exception 8 as relating to transport, running errands consists of going from one place of business to another, no? It is impossibly vague, but it would be my hope that a court would give the benefit of the doubt to the accused. And with the state of things here in PA, it's more likely that one will get cited for firearms violations by the Game Commission than the police...
    Again, because it specifically refers to "his home or place of business" three times, my belief is that it was grammatical expediency, rather than intended expanded permissions that facilitated the ommision from the "from one place of abode or business to another" portion.

    I agree that it is indeed quite vague. While this may or may not be helpful if one ends up in court, I'd prefer a law that was specifically clear, even if I disagreed with the intent of the law. At least then we could confidently know where we stood in matters such as this.
    Folks - what's the big deal here? The Uniform Firearm Act explicitly exempts any person with ANY state's carry permit from the car carry ban - regardless of your age!

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    Mike wrote:

    Folks - what's the big deal here? The Uniform Firearm Act explicitly exempts any person with ANY state's carry permit from the car carry ban - regardless of your age!
    I think the reason for the discussion is that the OP specifically asked about OCing, and since OC is widely practicable in many states without a license (as I'm sure you're aware ) it's a practical discussion on what the legal implications are if you aren't licensed. Also, even though I am licensed, PA's laws require me to have the license on my person. If I would happen to forget my license, it's my responsibility to continue to act within the law, despite circumstances different from my own 'norm'.

    Seems like the discussion has been pretty civil, and certain not taken a personally derogatory slant, so why (seemingly) curtail it?

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    Mike wrote:

    Folks - what's the big deal here? The Uniform Firearm Act explicitly exempts any person with ANY state's carry permit from the car carry ban - regardless of your age!
    I think the reason for the discussion is that the OP specifically asked about OCing, and since OC is widely practicable in many states without a license (as I'm sure you're aware ) it's a practical discussion on what the legal implications are if you aren't licensed. Also, even though I am licensed, PA's laws require me to have the license on my person. If I would happen to forget my license, it's my responsibility to continue to act within the law, despite circumstances different from my own 'norm'.

    Seems like the discussion has been pretty civil, and certain not taken a personally derogatory slant, so why (seemingly) curtail it?
    And I'm an adult that Pennsylvania has decided is too irresponsible to issue a LTCF, so I will not be able to apply for a license for another 11 months, 5 days. So I don't have a license either, and I don't have the money (or time, as I take college courses every night) to take an NRA "firearms safety class" that the shall-issue states require who issue non-res permits without requiring the applicant to be present. To make a long story short, I won't have a license for the better part of the next year.

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    In PA, a person needs a license in order to carry a firearm in a motor vehicle or concealed.
    Good catch. I definitely mis-spoke, though the requirement for having the LTCF still applies (unless qualifying for an exemption allowed under the UFA).

    Also, there are no PA laws governing "transport" of a firearm. The laws you're referencing are referring to "carry" of an unloaded firearm. As long as your gun is unloaded and your gun and ammo are in separate areas, you should be good for transport.
    While technically correct, the surrounding language of the UFA seems to imply more than having the weapon on your person. Webster's defines both 'carry' and 'transport' as "conveying an item from one place to another". Also, in my own reading of exemption paragraph (8), it seems pretty clear these are limitations for weapons being in vehicles, even if in an unloaded state.

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(6)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. §6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
    Are you suggesting that I can keep a weapon (unloaded & seperate from ammo) in my vehicle at all times, and as long as it's not concealed, I'm legal without a LTCF? Could be, but this point seems more ambiguous to me than the often discussed legality of carrying on school grounds under the "other lawful purpose" defense.
    Not to make this discussion any more difficult (vague and obtuse), we also need to be concerned with the difference between a firearm and a weapon. The UFA sets forth a very distinct definition for a firearm. By my reading you could have a semi-automatic rifle, not meeting the definition of a firearm, loaded and hidden in your vehicle at all times. I realize this forum is focused mainly on handguns, but my point is applicable to the topic at hand.

    Specifically to paragraph 8: the repetition of "his" in all other sections is in my opinion negated by the punctuation prior to and following "or in moving from one place of abode or business to another". A place of abode does not imply my own home, but could be the house of my relative or good friend. And as already stated the running of errands is clearly business; even as a customer we are conducting business. Again the ommision of "his" implies that this is not my own business, but simply a place where I do business. I don't think this section when read appropriately truely is a vague as we (or the police, prosocutor, judge, or jury) could read it. Never the less, I don't think it was an accident that "his" was omitted and that it changes the whole meaning of the locations it refers to.

    The best example I can think of right now for this would be taking my new pistol to my friends house for him to drool over. It is unloaded, in it's original box, in the trunk, no ammunition is present, and I do not have my LTCF. Certainly none of us would hesitate to commit such an act. But if paragraph 8 is read to mean only my own home or place of business then I have just committed a serious crime. I digress, these are my thoughts on said topic, but I guarantee no legal precedent and accept no liability for actions resulting from above statements. Feel free to comment or question...

    P.S. I wish someone would test the "other legal purpose" clause in the schools are off limits section of the statute.

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    vermeire, I believe a loaded long rifle or shotgun would fall under hunting regulations. Since surely there's no reason anyone would ever want to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun except to hunt... :?

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