NRA concealed course

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I just got back from the class portion of the concealed carry course at the NRA range and I am a little steamed from the blatant pro-government and ANTI open carry bias presented there. Some of the tidbits that stick out in my mind (which are most likely the ones I responded to in kind... I cant help it, I cant tolerate horseshit):

• I should just tell a police officer I have a permit or that I have a gun
• Oh and a police officer is justified for suspicion or fear of a citizen who does not immediately tell him they are armed ... MY ARSE!
• (paraphrasing) 'some guys recently decided to make an issue of thier right to open carry and police harassed them blah blah blah i hate open carry guys and am using as many negative adjectives as possible in this statement'
• you cant carry ___________ in a establishment that serves alchohol. I made SURE this douchebag pointed out that you MAY open carry in a bar.
  • Douchebag follows up with 'sure if you feel like a cowboy'. I took offense to this. Mainly because I wear western boots and have a handlebar mustache and a confederate belt buckle... Was he targeting this at me? With hindsight here, perhaps not, but at the time you bet your ass i though it was directed at me specifically
  • I follow THAT up with well maybe I dont want to leave it in my car or disarm myself just because I want to kick a little shot of rum back with a friend while we watch the game
• (para again) 'theres no real reason to open carry, you dont want to let others know your armed'
  • I didnt respond bcaue I KNEW I would not be able to contain my frustration with this one
• Northern virginia park registry or some horse shit: an example of local laws... supposedly... that shows that some local ordinances prevent carry
  • A - is this true that I cant carry in these parks? I asked if state preemption smashed that and he said no.
  • B - local laws are TRUMPED by state preemption!
• You cnt defend your property. Is this true? I thought Virginia was a state where that was allowed?
• You cant use or threaten force on anyone unless they are threatening you or another who has a right to be defended... who these mystical creatures of lore are he failed to define accurately but then again thats the nature of governments and thier damn laws... even in my own home? I highly doubt that.
• Whenever I asked a question abotu open carry it seemed to add a tick of frustration and fuel to thier incentive to mention it in a disparaging light in future portions of the course.
• Expect to be disarmed... grr... ok. Expect to be arrested?!?!??!! Is that honestly what citizens should expect as normal behavior from police in a self defense scenario? Or am I overreacting?

I dunno. Overall it was good I guess but there were key points where I was pissed as hell (granted at some points I was pissed at VA law and having to consider size and 'ablities' of my attacker before I can defend myself with X force...)

venting over





edit:
they also made sure to plug packing.org but not opencarry.org
I am sure if I mentioned this site they would have shit a ******* pretentious NRA sized brick. At the same time I sorta laughed to myself and thought "yea, you better hope it isnt down again... HA"

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I hope you write to the head of theNRA and complain.

I didn't renew my NRA membership for reasons including this type of B.S. I would rather send that $ to CDL or another organization.

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

• You cnt defend your property. Is this true? I thought Virginia was a state where that was allowed?

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Defense of property using lethal force is NOT authorized in VA.

In Texas AFTER DARK, but not VA.......yet....:banghead:

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I don't think saying you want to drink while OC'ing in a bar is a good argument for OC'ing.

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Bulldog1967 wrote:

thorsmitersaw wrote:

• You cnt defend your property. Is this true? I thought Virginia was a state where that was allowed?

  Click to expand...

Defense of property using lethal force is NOT authorized in VA.

In Texas AFTER DARK, but not VA.......yet....:banghead:

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed.

And it's obviously due to the NRA! :cuss:

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It sounds like that instructor is way out of touch with the law. Not to mention PDO has been gone for a few months now. I'd ask for my money back. Was this an official NRA course and who was teaching it?

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hsmith wrote:

I don't think saying you want to drink while OC'ing in a bar is a good argument for OC'ing.

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maybe not. But one beer or one shot of rum doesnt make me drunk. and even if I am TANKED I still have a right to defend myself. My ownership of myself (and all liberties that implies) does not vanish with annebriation.

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longwatch wrote:

It sounds like that instructor is way out of touch with the law. Not to mention PDO has been gone for a few months now. I'd ask for my money back. Was this an official NRA course and who was teaching it?

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I cannot recall his name and do not really wish toshare it, I think they spoke mostly from ignoranceand personal bias.They had a legal disclaimer that there laws may not be up to date... (dont you have to get fingerprinted now for CC?)

Honestly I almost expect the NRA to be pro big-government. The bias towards concealed carry and pushing everyone through exclusion or clever choice of words to believe that concealed is better or MORE legal in a sense in MORE places was pissing me off.

I think the NRA has missed a huge portion of open carry that I like... IT OPENS EYES AND FORCES PEOPLE TO OPEN THIER MINDS! I do nto wish to hide that I am a gun woner or that I take my right to my life seriously. I feel no need to. I guess it is reflective of thier consistantly soft defense of the second amendment that they prefer to hide thier guns for fear some moron will call the police they worship so damn much. I have nothing against CC mind you, but it doesnt PROVE that guns dont make you a killer to anyone but those whome you know and share the knowledge that you carry with. It oesnt show Joe Blow the 711 shop owner (More like Joe Hasapipapepalon... hahahaha) that guns arent just for bad guys.

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In SC the CWP Instructor is virtually required to be a NRA gallus-snapper.

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

Honestly I almost expect the NRA to be pro big-government....

I think the NRA .... I guess it is reflective of thier consistantly soft defense of the second amendment that they prefer to hide thier guns for fear some moron will call the police they worship so damn much....

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There are, according to recent estimates, between 210 and 270 million guns in the United States. More than in any country in the history of the world. With the highest ratio of guns to citizens in history. With no serious prospect for anything but the addition of 2.5 to 4.5 million new guns per year for the forseeable future...

<shakes head>.And you accuse the NRA for being pro big-government? And of mounting a soft defense of the second amendment? </shakes head>

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

longwatch wrote:

It sounds like that instructor is way out of touch with the law. Not to mention PDO has been gone for a few months now. I'd ask for my money back. Was this an official NRA course and who was teaching it?

Click to expand...

I cannot recall his name and do not really wish toshare it, I think they spoke mostly from ignoranceand personal bias.They had a legal disclaimer that there laws may not be up to date... (dont you have to get fingerprinted now for CC?)

Honestly I almost expect the NRA to be pro big-government. The bias towards concealed carry and pushing everyone through exclusion or clever choice of words to believe that concealed is better or MORE legal in a sense in MORE places was pissing me off.

I think the NRA has missed a huge portion of open carry that I like... IT OPENS EYES AND FORCES PEOPLE TO OPEN THIER MINDS! I do nto wish to hide that I am a gun woner or that I take my right to my life seriously. I feel no need to. I guess it is reflective of thier consistantly soft defense of the second amendment that they prefer to hide thier guns for fear some moron will call the police they worship so damn much. I have nothing against CC mind you, but it doesnt PROVE that guns dont make you a killer to anyone but those whome you know and share the knowledge that you carry with. It oesnt show Joe Blow the 711 shop owner (More like Joe Hasapipapepalon... hahahaha) that guns arent just for bad guys.

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also consider this, the NRA gains by having laws passed. If liberals weren't passing gun laws or attempting to, their organization would lose signifigant funding. So as long as they are fighting "the good fight" they will keep getting money.

the fight goes away, they go bankrupt. so they rely on big gov't to a certain extent

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

I just got back from the class portion of the concealed carry course at the NRA range and I am a little steamed from the blatant pro-government and ANTI open carry bias presented there. Some of the tidbits that stick out in my mind (which are most likely the ones I responded to in kind... I cant help it, I cant tolerate horseshit):

• I should just tell a police officer I have a permit or that I have a gun
• Oh and a police officer is justified for suspicion or fear of a citizen who does not immediately tell him they are armed ... MY ARSE!
  
• (paraphrasing) 'some guys recently decided to make an issue of thier right to open carry and police harassed them blah blah blah i hate open carry guys and am using as many negative adjectives as possible in this statement'
• you cant carry ___________ in a establishment that serves alchohol. I made SURE this douchebag pointed out that you MAY open carry in a bar.
  • Douchebag follows up with 'sure if you feel like a cowboy'. I took offense to this. Mainly because I wear western boots and have a handlebar mustache and a confederate belt buckle... Was he targeting this at me? With hindsight here, perhaps not, but at the time you bet your ass i though it was directed at me specifically
  • I follow THAT up with well maybe I dont want to leave it in my car or disarm myself just because I want to kick a little shot of rum back with a friend while we watch the game
• (para again) 'theres no real reason to open carry, you dont want to let others know your armed'
  • I didnt respond bcaue I KNEW I would not be able to contain my frustration with this one
• Northern virginia park registry or some horse shit: an example of local laws... supposedly... that shows that some local ordinances prevent carry
  
  • A - is this true that I cant carry in these parks? I asked if state preemption smashed that and he said no.
  • B - local laws are TRUMPED by state preemption!
• You cnt defend your property. Is this true? I thought Virginia was a state where that was allowed?
• You cant use or threaten force on anyone unless they are threatening you or another who has a right to be defended... who these mystical creatures of lore are he failed to define accurately but then again thats the nature of governments and thier damn laws... even in my own home? I highly doubt that.
• Whenever I asked a question abotu open carry it seemed to add a tick of frustration and fuel to thier incentive to mention it in a disparaging light in future portions of the course.
• Expect to be disarmed... grr... ok. Expect to be arrested?!?!??!! Is that honestly what citizens should expect as normal behavior from police in a self defense scenario? Or am I overreacting?

I dunno. Overall it was good I guess but there were key points where I was pissed as hell (granted at some points I was pissed at VA law and having to consider size and 'ablities' of my attacker before I can defend myself with X force...)

venting over





edit:
they also made sure to plug packing.org but not opencarry.org
I am sure if I mentioned this site they would have shit a ******* pretentious NRA sized brick. At the same time I sorta laughed to myself and thought "yea, you better hope it isnt down again... HA"

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Are you referring to the SFI classes held at the NRA range? These are not NRA sponsored or endorsed classes, they are held and at the impetus of several of the staff at NRA HQ, some of whom work at the range. You're correct to vent, but don't discount what you can learn and take away from the class because of political differences with the instructor staff. If you want to have an effect on the class, you should write back to the instructors in a calm, reasoned fashion explaining that severalof the classroom points were "subjective" and deserve the opposing viewpoint, as well as incorrect.

Disclosure of permit & 'RAS' for not disclosing.

Generally speaking disclosure to a non rookie for professional contact is discretionary on the part of the citizen. Police will find out if they run you D/L, but notif you're using a UT or FL permit. Citizens retain the right to remain silent and if you're going to get taken into custody you will have ample chance to let the officer know you're carrying. There is a right and wrong way to do this(disclose) but it is 100% taken in context. For example, if you didn't pull over fast enough for them, or you drove to a lighted area first ( despite what PIO's say, this INFURIATES a great deal of patrol officers virtually guaranteeing a ticket ). OTOH, if you've done all the right things in the contact, been a decent, polite citizen and they've clearly indicated they're just looking to enforce some law you may have <ahem> bent a little, lots of officers see permit holders as just regular good guys they're not likely to be able to find any dirt on.

There are no valid local ordinances preventing open or concealed carry. Only State Parks have a ban on OPEN carry only. This is addressed in section 15.2-915, whichyou would be well served to email to the instructor staff. Bad information is worse than no information...

You may defend property invirginia basically using the same premiseas self defense in that your response MUST be proportional to the threat and you may not threatenor deploy DEADLY force solely to protect property. You MAY employ force, just not lethal force. You may even escalate the force since the one destroying or using your property without your permission is most likelycommitting a felony. You may not legally 'go straight to lethal force'. The salient case is Alexander ( brandishing conviction ).

"You cant use or threaten force on anyone unless they are threatening you or another who has a right to be defended..." - that's pretty accurate actually.

"expect to be disarmed, cuffed & stuffed". It all depends on the totality of the circumstance. First, if you've used a gun, and there is a professional law enforcement contact as a result, the gun is evidence. It's going to be seized. Since more often than not such use resulting in contact with LE is a felony, it is likely that an arrest will take place. There *could* be exceptions, maybe you're injured by a weapon in the deceased's hands, and witnesses verify you were attacked and you were left with no choice...

As for the anti-open carry sentiment, you should request of the instructors that they take a more reasoned approach to how they assess methods of carry. Both methods have merit and both have disadvantages.

There is training value in learning even that which you philosophically disagree with. Whether that's class stuff or technique, at least listen with an open mind and then make your own, independent assessment. For that which you know to be factually incorrect, or perhaps at least 'questionable' you should offer that information to the instructor staff and ask that they change that portion of the class.

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I am an NRA instructor here in OR and I have not had the greatest experiences with other NRA instructors. Safety is extremely important but when you go so far (as some instructors do) to make your guns "safe" you are now making it impossible to defend yourself. Is that safe? They also seem to bring personal bias into the classroom way to much.

I am an NRA instructor but I am not an NRA member. I hope thatmakes a point.

Open carry is still a "new" idea. I have found that it is accepted more generally by new gun owners than people who have been around guns for a long time (NRA instructors for example). We just have to keep working on it!

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Sounds alot like my CHP class. My 'teacher' told us that you can't carry into a place that serves alcohol as well,....of course I chimed in that the law states you can OC. He didn't much like me by the end of the class,...lol.

They also brough out a Glcok pistol,and Rossi revolver to explain how it works,and all the basics:shock:

When we got started,he went around the room and asked everybody their name,occupation,and if they were an NRA member. Not ONE single person said "yes" to being a member,as a matter of fact,...Even the lady who sat to my right who worked the gun counter at the same store said no

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Deovin1 wrote:

I am an NRA instructor but I am not an NRA member. I hope thatmakes a point.

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What is the point that you are making? I'm curious.



Are you a member of any pro-gun rights organizations?

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Perhaps his point is that he is a leader rather than a follower.

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:X

It sounds like that instructor is way out of touch with the law.

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1+

think of his pro CC/Anti OC rant as a business decision, they don't make any money on a OC class(none required):exclaim:

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Edit:
Call Stanley Steamer

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Thats a heck of an idea there. An open carry course.