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Thread: Small of back considered open carry?

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    Is a fully exposed small of the back holster (through belt)considered open carry? Assuming a tucked in shirt of course? Do any of you carry this way?



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    Dunno what state you're in, but that should be OK in Ohio. I usually wear mine in the 4 o'clock kidney position, which makes it not readily visible from the front, but not concealed either, within the definitions in our state law.

    -ljp

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Just like your wang; if it’s not concealed it’s exposed. So small of the back carry is open carry any way you want to look at it. Nevertheless, that would be the most foolish way to OC a pistol I can think of.

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    SNIP:
    SOB is the most foolish way to OC a pistol I can think of.
    almost impossible to defend if some one attempts to disarm you (IMHO)
    Practice disarming defense with a friend(unloaded/fake gun)

    if you slip and fall your chiropractor will love you(whether it is OC/CC)

    SOB does have merits but it isn't for me
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    I also agree that it is open carry if it is in a holster on your belt, regardless of the position. Furthermore I would agree that openly carrying a pistol in the SOB position leaves you the most vulnerable to a gun grab. However, I think there is a time and place for this sort of carry. In states like Virginia, where you can't be concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol, taking your jacket off to expose your SOB holster would suffice, and while sitting in a booth or chair you wouldn't have to worry. Also, if you are hunting with a long gun or fishing, a SOB holster keeps the pistol out of the way.

    I definitely wouldn't carry in a SOB holster in a busy area, but they have their purpose.

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    Y'all might want to read the information posted at the below-linked website before considering small-of-back carry.

    Its a great site, by the way. Lots of cools stuff.

    http://www.thegunzone.com/sob_is_bad.html
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Here it is without having to blindly click the link:

    P-A-R-A-P-L-E-G-I-A?
    Some thoughts on why SOB or MOB carry is a bad idea!
    par·a·ple·gi·a noun
    Complete paralysis of the lower half of the body including both legs, usually caused by damage to the spinal cord.
    Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. When I was much younger, there was what for the time (1959-60) was an exciting half-hour television series entitled Tightrope in which an unnamed1 police undercover agent played by Mike Conners (later more popular as private detective "Joe Mannix"), infiltrated organized crime to bring the leaders to justice. Perhaps the most memorable part of those 37 black and white episodes was the deep concealment method by which the agent carried his two-inch revolver. When crunch time (what we now refer to as "Condition Red") came, Conners would reach behind his back under his sports jacket or windbreaker, and rapidly produce his weapon.

    I don't think many of us had seen anything like that before... we never got a good look at the actual rig he was using... but it was not only fast, it provided excellent concealment. Although few of us at the time concerned ourselves with "concealment" issues, and "quick draw" stuff was reserved for the likes of contemporary Western TV series stars such as Hugh O'Brien and Wayde Preston, it was different, and it was "cool!"

    It was also, as I came to discover several decades later, an extremely risky place to carry a handgun.

    By the time I'd grown up and discovered the realities of carrying a handgun, and come to grips, so to speak, with the practical issues of accessibility, concealment and comfort (in that order), I'd long since ruled out the Small-of-the-Back/Middle-of-the-Back option; it simply wasn't as fast as a strongside position, or as comfortable as an inside-the-waistband rig such as the Milt Sparks classic "Summer Special" originally designed by the late Bruce Nelson, or a similar variant from the legendary Gordon William Davis. And after I discovered the Rosen ARG, there was never a reason to look elsewhere for any sort of day-to-day carry for my working gun.

    The subject of the SOB/MOB design came up one day while I was visiting the Smith & Wesson Academy in Springfield, Massachusetts, in the company of S&W's Pistol Product Manager, Tom Marx, now the Intellectual Property Analyist for Blackhawk Products. Before joining S&W, Tom had been a Chicago Police Officer for a number of years, and held some very strong views about that method of carry.

    "Most modern departments and agencies have specific policies and directives prohibiting anything from being carried over the base of the spine," he stated. "Never mind a handgun, most Chiefs won't let their officers wear their handcuff case in that position!"

    Marx made the too-often unconsidered point that cops are invariably wrestling around in alleys and on hard ground with suspects, and any sort of blow or impact to something as hard as 'cuffs or a firearm in that location, could cause serious spinal cord injury! Ouch!

    Since that morning in October 1990, I've thought about that discussion a great deal, and collected as much information on the subject as possible. And the conclusion is that SOB/MOB is not a good idea, although it is frequently espoused by the unknowing2 in various forums and on newsgroups such as rec.guns.


    Some of the more problematic elements of
    the SOB/MOB mode of concealed carry...

    While reaching with palm inward for a gun positioned behind the back, it is near impossible to retain that gun should someone wish to perform a disarm; because of leverage and body mechanics, there is nothing one can do about it!
    If one falls and lands on one's back/butt, the gun can break the coccyx, or otherwise cause serious spinal cord damage. This is also why handcuff cases aren't worn back there anymore.
    Unless one's jacket is relatively long, the gun tends to show when bending over... and if the coat is long, then the gun prints during the bend.
    When it is critical to get the gun on target fast, its muzzle invariably crosses some part of the wearer's body, ranging from the right kidney to the right femur. That, compounded with the stress factor of needing that gun to safe a life, means the trigger finger is just itchin' to get on the trigger to save the day.
    Would anyone like to be to the left of someone using a right-handed SOB/MOB during the reholstering move? Many instructors will not allow SOB/MOB holsters in their classes for that very reason.
    If in a seated position, especially while in a vehicle, how does one get into action while sitting on one's holster?3
    So, there it is... you can think about it and then make a more informed decison.

    And if you do decide to go forward with an SOB/MOB mode of carry, I don't think anyone makes a better design with more craftsmanship than Andy Arratoonian, Horseshoe Leather Products, of Great Britain. His work is beautiful, and he's a one-person shop... one of the last of the "ol' time" artisans.

    My own holstermeister of preference, Mitch Rosen, has always resolutely refused to make such a design. So, if one doesn't want to do business abroad, DeSantis Holster & Leather Goods of Amityville, NY, gives good value as a manufacturer of serviceable rigs.

    And if one isn't fussy, there's always that shameless mass-production knock-off shop in Phoenix... no names, please. Thems what know their leather wouldn't make that mistake anyhow.

  8. #8
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    Whats his issue with Galco?

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    DreQo wrote:
    Whats his issue with XXXXX?
    shameless mass-production knock-off
    my interpretation
    There are others that do it better (with original/
    semi original designs)
    for the same $$ or less.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  10. #10
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    I've NEVER heard that opinion about Galco before. That's interesting.

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    Cabela's has the Desantis SOB for the lowest price available. I paid less than $50 for mine.

    BTW, I love it. Most comfortable holster for my full size 1911. Wouldn't wear it OC as it has no retention, but it is definitely OC.

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    .40 Cal wrote:
    Cabela's has the Desantis SOB for the lowest price available. I paid less than $50 for mine.

    BTW, I love it. Most comfortable holster for my full size 1911. Wouldn't wear it OC as it has no retention, but it is definitely OC.
    ThanksI saw that there as well.



    To the rest. I'm asking more out of a curiosity of the law than anything else.

    Thanks for the feedback all.

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    DreQo wrote:
    I definitely wouldn't carry in a SOB holster in a busy area, but they have their purpose.
    For medium size and smaller guns, I think they're good for driving long distance.

  14. #14
    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    I would compare it to OCing in a shoulder rig. It is not common, but it is legal. A guy at the last fun show I went to walked in OCing with the same holster, but with amicro compact 1911. I lifted up my shirt and said,"this is what yours will look like when it grows up." No issues with the cops at the door, in fact I think theyhad a look like they sawtheir next must have item.

  15. #15
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    double tap :shock:

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    Mainsail wrote:
    Here it is without having to blindly click the link:

    P-A-R-A-P-L-E-G-I-A?
    Some thoughts on why SOB or MOB carry is a bad idea!
    par·a·ple·gi·a noun
    Complete paralysis of the lower half of the body including both legs, usually caused by damage to the spinal cord.
    Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. When I was much younger, there was what for the time (1959-60) was an exciting half-hour television series entitled Tightrope in which an unnamed1 police undercover agent played by Mike Conners (later more popular as private detective "Joe Mannix"), infiltrated organized crime to bring the leaders to justice. Perhaps the most memorable part of those 37 black and white episodes was the deep concealment method by which the agent carried his two-inch revolver. When crunch time (what we now refer to as "Condition Red") came, Conners would reach behind his back under his sports jacket or windbreaker, and rapidly produce his weapon.

    I don't think many of us had seen anything like that before... we never got a good look at the actual rig he was using... but it was not only fast, it provided excellent concealment. Although few of us at the time concerned ourselves with "concealment" issues, and "quick draw" stuff was reserved for the likes of contemporary Western TV series stars such as Hugh O'Brien and Wayde Preston, it was different, and it was "cool!"

    It was also, as I came to discover several decades later, an extremely risky place to carry a handgun.

    By the time I'd grown up and discovered the realities of carrying a handgun, and come to grips, so to speak, with the practical issues of accessibility, concealment and comfort (in that order), I'd long since ruled out the Small-of-the-Back/Middle-of-the-Back option; it simply wasn't as fast as a strongside position, or as comfortable as an inside-the-waistband rig such as the Milt Sparks classic "Summer Special" originally designed by the late Bruce Nelson, or a similar variant from the legendary Gordon William Davis. And after I discovered the Rosen ARG, there was never a reason to look elsewhere for any sort of day-to-day carry for my working gun.

    The subject of the SOB/MOB design came up one day while I was visiting the Smith & Wesson Academy in Springfield, Massachusetts, in the company of S&W's Pistol Product Manager, Tom Marx, now the Intellectual Property Analyist for Blackhawk Products. Before joining S&W, Tom had been a Chicago Police Officer for a number of years, and held some very strong views about that method of carry.

    "Most modern departments and agencies have specific policies and directives prohibiting anything from being carried over the base of the spine," he stated. "Never mind a handgun, most Chiefs won't let their officers wear their handcuff case in that position!"

    Marx made the too-often unconsidered point that cops are invariably wrestling around in alleys and on hard ground with suspects, and any sort of blow or impact to something as hard as 'cuffs or a firearm in that location, could cause serious spinal cord injury! Ouch!

    Since that morning in October 1990, I've thought about that discussion a great deal, and collected as much information on the subject as possible. And the conclusion is that SOB/MOB is not a good idea, although it is frequently espoused by the unknowing2 in various forums and on newsgroups such as rec.guns.


    Some of the more problematic elements of
    the SOB/MOB mode of concealed carry...

    While reaching with palm inward for a gun positioned behind the back, it is near impossible to retain that gun should someone wish to perform a disarm; because of leverage and body mechanics, there is nothing one can do about it!
    If one falls and lands on one's back/butt, the gun can break the coccyx, or otherwise cause serious spinal cord damage. This is also why handcuff cases aren't worn back there anymore.
    Unless one's jacket is relatively long, the gun tends to show when bending over... and if the coat is long, then the gun prints during the bend.
    When it is critical to get the gun on target fast, its muzzle invariably crosses some part of the wearer's body, ranging from the right kidney to the right femur. That, compounded with the stress factor of needing that gun to safe a life, means the trigger finger is just itchin' to get on the trigger to save the day.
    Would anyone like to be to the left of someone using a right-handed SOB/MOB during the reholstering move? Many instructors will not allow SOB/MOB holsters in their classes for that very reason.
    If in a seated position, especially while in a vehicle, how does one get into action while sitting on one's holster?3
    So, there it is... you can think about it and then make a more informed decison.

    And if you do decide to go forward with an SOB/MOB mode of carry, I don't think anyone makes a better design with more craftsmanship than Andy Arratoonian, Horseshoe Leather Products, of Great Britain. His work is beautiful, and he's a one-person shop... one of the last of the "ol' time" artisans.

    My own holstermeister of preference, Mitch Rosen, has always resolutely refused to make such a design. So, if one doesn't want to do business abroad, DeSantis Holster & Leather Goods of Amityville, NY, gives good value as a manufacturer of serviceable rigs.

    And if one isn't fussy, there's always that shameless mass-production knock-off shop in Phoenix... no names, please. Thems what know their leather wouldn't make that mistake anyhow.


    When I was 19 or so, I carried my Leatherman tool in a MOB position. At the time, I was training horses for a living. Well, one day, I was riding this crazy little paint horse, and he decided to charge a gate that I knew I wouldn't fit through, and there was NO way we'd both fit, so I bailed out. I landed on a rock. It jammed that Leatherman into my spine. I don't know how long I was blind, since I was alone, and obviously couldn't see a clock, but it scared the hell out of me. I was TOTALLY blind.

    Thank GOD the damage wasn't permanent. It would have been rather tragic to go totally blind at 19.

    DO NOT CARRY IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR BACK!

    YOU COULD BE PERMANENTLY CRIPPLED!



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    spurrit wrote:
    DO NOT CARRY IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR BACK!

    YOU COULD BE PERMANENTLY CRIPPLED!

    *
    You sure you didn't hit your head? There's no way to lose your sight from a back injury... your eyes are wired directly into your brain.
    -Unrequited

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    unrequited wrote:
    You sure you didn't hit your head? There's no way to lose your sight from a back injury... your eyes are wired directly into your brain.
    I have known several people who could land hard on their butt and suffer some major Drain Bamage..amage..amage..amage......:celebrate

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    i know plently of people who apparently have their brains up their a$$ and talk out their butts so maybeeeee it is possible?

    and then there is that expression about: hindsight? right?

    papasmee

    but seriously folks - i oc at the 4 o'clock for comfort. i have a smaller .380 and i carry in a plain black RH holster right next to my cell phone which is also in a plain black case. it's easy to get to, it doesnt draw any attention, i am not looking to draw any attention and it is totally within the oc law regarding visibility.(AZ)

    for driving i use the same holster and move it to the 10-11 o'clock position. here i can get to it easily as a cross-draw with my right hand without crossing over any vital parts of my body (left arm only) and it is quickly poiting out the driver's side window. also, it is not visible fromoutside the driver window nor really from across the passenger side.

    there is little interference from the seat belt which the belt and holster are properly adjusted and, no, the muzzle is not point down at my leg but towards the door.also - here too it is all perfectly legal according to AZ law.

    so no - i would not carry sob/mob for many reasons.

  20. #20
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    Open carry? Yes, but for all the reasons already stated, not a good idea. And not recommended for CC either!

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    Off topic

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    My butt had nothing to do with it. LEARN TO READ! I landed on my back, on a rock, and the rock shoved the leatherman into my spine.

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    spurrit wrote:
    My butt had nothing to do with it. LEARN TO READ! I landed on my back, on a rock, and the rock shoved the leatherman into my spine.
    We're just trying to figure out where your brain is located, thats all. Kinda like trying to find a gun in a closet full of hillary's pant suits.

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    spurrit wrote:
    My butt had nothing to do with it. LEARN TO READ! I landed on my back, on a rock, and the rock shoved the leatherman into my spine.
    Your optic nerves, which transmittes images to your brain, do not pass through your spine.

    An injurey to your spine would have no affect on your eyes.

    A blow to the head could have caused the injurey you mention.

    In light of these facts, you wearing a leatherman in the SOB and then falling and becoming blind, has no bearing on this discussion.

    Tarzan

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    Spurrit, you can have an almost complete severance of your spinal chord from the neck down and as long as you're on a breathing machine, and have a pulse, you still have eyesight, and the ability to think, blink, etc. I think you fell and knocked your head badly. I don't know why you're so confrontational and rude to the point of being vulgar.
    -Unrequited

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