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Thread: I’m freaking people out

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    I often patronize Cutter’s Point Coffee on Pacific in downtown Tacoma. I have my cappuccino and read the paper. I had thought that the police were ignoring me as I haven’t had so much as a drive-by from them anywhere I’ve gone in Tacoma. In case you’re unfamiliar, the University of Washington Tacoma campus borders Pacific Ave on the east side. I make sure to stay on the public sidewalk due to the sensitivity with colleges and universities.

    As I sat drinking my coffee, the barista approached and asked if I was law enforcement, I said no. He told me he’d gotten several calls from people and the U-dub security regarding my pistol. He said he knew it was legal but that I was freaking people out. I told him how I was there just last night without any problem and he repeated that he was getting calls and that people were ‘freaked out’. He was sort of laughing the whole time and never asked me to leave or change my method of carry.

    After my coffee I left and walked back to my car, I was on the sidewalk walking back toward my car, and I passed three guys talking. One of them interrupted the other and hissed, “Did you see that!” referring to my Sig. Wow, it’s been so long since anyone made any sort of fuss about it I had thought it was being accepted as normal. Now I’m wondering if I was mistaken.

    Walking back, I crossed Pacific and was walking north past the federal courthouse I noticed a TPD car on the other side across the trolley tracks. I doubt they could see me, but I’m pretty sure they were looking for me.
    So now I wonder if I should look for a new coffee shop. On the one hand, the Cutter’s Point wasn’t bothered by my firearm in the least. On the other, I don’t know that I really want to deal with the TPD again. Olsen has already proven that they will lie, threaten, and attempt to intimidate if they feel the need to. On the other hand, why do I care? On the other hand, I don’t want to freak anyone out. Wait, that’s four hands…

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    Well, at least you are getting peoples attention.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    On the other hand, the TPD officers my put eyes on you and say "oh him" and move on. It just may be that with all the attention that was given to your incident in Ruston that they feel stopping you again would be like peeing on an electric fence the second time.

    "Management" has most likely passed the word that OC is legal and to look for other activity, in addition to an exposed weapon, to stop and lean on someone.

    But then I can dream.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Backing off, hiding, etc. is just what they want you to do.

    You don't exercise your right, it'sreally a "right". Use it orlose it.

    I know it's not an easy call, but are you going to let them win?




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    I'd actually go out of my way to patronize that particular CP if they're so good about guns. Show your support for their policy with your dollar.
    I'd guess that any police contact will be minor, but I'm not the one in that area.

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    Drewesque wrote:
    I'd actually go out of my way to patronize that particular CP if they're so good about guns. Show your support for their policy with your dollar.
    I'd guess that any police contact will be minor, but I'm not the one in that area.
    +1

    I would continue doing what you've been doing, and get a voice recorder ( if you don't have one already ) as it sounds like something may happen.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Well, I like my after-work coffee and newspaper, so I will probably keep going. I just thought it was ‘over’ here in Tacoma; the police and even the general public haven’t batted an eye since my last Ruston incident. I guess I might have been wrong.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    Well, I like my after-work coffee and newspaper, so I will probably keep going. I just thought it was ‘over’ here in Tacoma; the police and even the general public haven’t batted an eye since my last Ruston incident. I guess I might have been wrong.
    If you decide to keep going to the coffee shop, I'd suggest you havea confab with the barista or whoever is in charge to resolve the uncertainty upfront: Do they or will they have a problem with you OCing in the coffee shop.

    If they don't, you have little to be worriedabout. You can enjoy your coffee and newspaper in the future without worrying too much about what might happen.

    If they decide they have a problem with the OCing (for whatever reason, customer commpaints, etc.) then you can make your decision about whether to stop patronizing them or to force the issue in some way.

    Reasonable people can work things out reasonably.

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    HankT wrote:
    If you decide to keep going to the coffee shop, I'd suggest you havea confab with the barista or whoever is in charge to resolve the uncertainty upfront: Do they or will they have a problem with you OCing in the coffee shop.
    Very bad advice - nerver do this. Don't ask don't tell applies to both concealed and open carry.

    if you ask a private owner if you carry, you are implicitly conceding that there might be a good reason for them to say no - also, just like police, employees and management have an incentive to say NO - risk aversion to saying somthing that could come back to haunt them

    Keep carryin'!

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    Even though I am a retired LEO, when asked if I am Law Enf. or who I work for, I do not say that I am retired or that I am not Law Enf. I simply reply OCPD ( Open Carry Personal Decision) and walk away. I let them make the determination. Some may say this is impersonation, but for impersonation it requires an overt act to obtain information, or perform an act that is only allowed for LEO.

    Agree or Disagree I don't care... that is my stance, and it usually handles the event without further conversation

    Jim
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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    If you decide to keep going to the coffee shop, I'd suggest you havea confab with the barista or whoever is in charge to resolve the uncertainty upfront: Do they or will they have a problem with you OCing in the coffee shop.
    His demeanor was such that I didn’t feel he was withholding any apprehension; he pretty much told me there wasn’t a problem. The impetus is on him to change the status quo now. I learned in the Air Force you never ask a question when you might not like the answer, instead, you just use your best judgment. If you ask someone if it’s OK to do something and they aren’t sure (or are too lazy to find out), they will just say “no” because that’s the easiest thing to do.

    Honestly, I don’t think they have any problem with it, and I’ve been a regular customer for years. IOW, they know me and I doubt they would have any difficulty asking me to leave or conceal if that was what they wanted. My worry is that the TPD might decide to make life difficult for us if they get enough nervous-Nelly calls. I’m not trying to antagonize them [the TPD], but at the same time I’m not going to accept any grief from them either.

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    Every time you go somewhere call dispatch and advise them where you are. They'll get tired of all the "courtesy calls" after a while. In fact if everyone OCing and CCing did this they mightgetthe picture that gun carrying was very common and peacefuland that harassment, I mean communication,can be a two way street :P.

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Even though I am a retired LEO, when asked if I am Law Enf. or who I work for, I do not say that I am retired or that I am not Law Enf. I simply reply OCPD ( Open Carry Personal Decision) and walk away. I let them make the determination. Some may say this is impersonation, but for impersonation it requires an overt act to obtain information, or perform an act that is only allowed for LEO.

    Agree or Disagree I don't care... that is my stance, and it usually handles the event without further conversation

    Jim
    Your stance or not, that's illegal and you know better.

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    expvideo wrote:
    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Even though I am a retired LEO, when asked if I am Law Enf. or who I work for, I do not say that I am retired or that I am not Law Enf. I simply reply OCPD ( Open Carry Personal Decision) and walk away. I let them make the determination. Some may say this is impersonation, but for impersonation it requires an overt act to obtain information, or perform an act that is only allowed for LEO.

    Agree or Disagree I don't care... that is my stance, and it usually handles the event without further conversation

    Jim
    Your stance or not, that's illegal and you know better.
    Is it different than wearing the FBI ( Female body inspector ) shirt?

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    Mainsail wrote:
    So now I wonder if I should look for a new coffee shop. On the one hand, the Cutter’s Point wasn’t bothered by my firearm in the least. On the other, I don’t know that I really want to deal with the TPD again. Olsen has already proven that they will lie, threaten, and attempt to intimidate if they feel the need to. On the other hand, why do I care? On the other hand, I don’t want to freak anyone out. Wait, that’s four hands…
    I see where you are coming from, and had a bit of OC paranoia around Oly for a while despite a much different situation. I finally relaxed when I was told that a training directive was being issued.

    I would keep doing what you are doing, and where you are doing it. Heck, I'll meet you for coffee there on Monday or Tuesday sometime if you want.

    I presume you complained to the TPD, and they ignored it. We all know TPD is not exactly the most umm... professional organization in Washington. I would push one of the higher ups in the PD to acknowledge in writing your right to OC. Otherwise, giving in and not OCing or going somewhere else plays into their hands.

    Methinks I will drop a note to TPD as well, since I pass through there, although usually just to change buses at Tacoma Dome Station or to walk over to Bullseye and blow off some rounds. I haven't OC'd in Tacoma. I feel safe in Oly, Seattle and Lynnwood, which are pretty much the only places I travel to, so think I will get something from Tacoma as well...

    Steve

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Methinks I will drop a note to TPD as well, since I pass through there, although usually just to change buses at Tacoma Dome Station or to walk over to Bullseye and blow off some rounds. I haven't OC'd in Tacoma. I feel safe in Oly, Seattle and Lynnwood, which are pretty much the only places I travel to, so think I will get something from Tacoma as well...

    Steve
    Tacoma PD is aware, as we've already broken ground on that here. Dave Workman has already been in contact with high ranking people in the department. No letter is necessary, and would probably be redundant and possibly harmful at this point.

    The TPD only drove past where I had been walking, it could have been by chance, or it could have been by design. If it was the former, writing a letter makes us look defensive. If it was the latter, we don’t know at this point what they might have done; stop and question me or just give me the stink-eye like they did on Ruston when I OCd on my bike.

    I’m not in favor of preemptively sending letters. TPD knows it’s legal and hasn’t, so far, harassed anyone for carrying openly. Détente.



    BTW, I will be there between 5:30 and 6:00 pm on Monday.


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    Mainsail wrote:

    Tacoma PD is aware, as we've already broken ground on that here. Dave Workman has already been in contact with high ranking people in the department. No letter is necessary, and would probably be redundant and possibly harmful at this point.

    The TPD only drove past where I had been walking, it could have been by chance, or it could have been by design. If it was the former, writing a letter makes us look defensive. If it was the latter, we don’t know at this point what they might have done; stop and question me or just give me the stink-eye like they did on Ruston when I OCd on my bike.

    I’m not in favor of preemptively sending letters. TPD knows it’s legal and hasn’t, so far, harassed anyone for carrying openly. Détente.



    BTW, I will be there between 5:30 and 6:00 pm on Monday.
    Okay, no letter, that's fine. I was unsure what work had been done in Tacoma.

    I can't do a Monday at 5:30, will you be there Tuesday at that time? Basically I pass through Tacoma to Lynnwood Monday morning/early afternoon and really have no time schedule to keep coming back down to Oly on Tuesday, but I like to be in Lynnwood by about 3-5.

    IIRC the 594 passes by Cutter's Point?

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    I think I may not have clearly stated the thrust of why I reported this incident. I have carried openly everywhere in Tacoma since my summer difficulties and it hasn’t resulted in any significant altercations or even a raised eyebrow. I didn’t write about any of those because it would likely be pretty boring reading. Last night, while in a relaxed state of normalcy, I was jolted back into reality by two, albeit minor, reactions to my pistol. This isn’t a ‘march on city hall’ cry, just a ‘hey, I almost forgot that this is still viewed as peculiar’.

    The CP that I visit is the one on Pacific Ave, east and across the street from Union Station, Museum of Glass, and the Federal Courthouse. The Harmon Brewery is right next door, and would make a great place for a luncheon.



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    I know what you mean, I just got a comment about my gun after weeks and weeks without so much as a sideways look. It kind of slaps you back to feeling like you are walking around with a spotlight on you.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    I often patronize Cutter’s Point Coffee on Pacific in downtown Tacoma. I have my cappuccino and read the paper. I had thought that the police were ignoring me as I haven’t had so much as a drive-by from them anywhere I’ve gone in Tacoma. In case you’re unfamiliar, the University of Washington Tacoma campus borders Pacific Ave on the east side. I make sure to stay on the public sidewalk due to the sensitivity with colleges and universities.

    As I sat drinking my coffee, the barista approached and asked if I was law enforcement, I said no. He told me he’d gotten several calls from people and the U-dub security regarding my pistol. He said he knew it was legal but that I was freaking people out. I told him how I was there just last night without any problem and he repeated that he was getting calls and that people were ‘freaked out’. He was sort of laughing the whole time and never asked me to leave or change my method of carry.

    After my coffee I left and walked back to my car, I was on the sidewalk walking back toward my car, and I passed three guys talking. One of them interrupted the other and hissed, “Did you see that!” referring to my Sig. Wow, it’s been so long since anyone made any sort of fuss about it I had thought it was being accepted as normal. Now I’m wondering if I was mistaken.

    Walking back, I crossed Pacific and was walking north past the federal courthouse I noticed a TPD car on the other side across the trolley tracks. I doubt they could see me, but I’m pretty sure they were looking for me.
    So now I wonder if I should look for a new coffee shop. On the one hand, the Cutter’s Point wasn’t bothered by my firearm in the least. On the other, I don’t know that I really want to deal with the TPD again. Olsen has already proven that they will lie, threaten, and attempt to intimidate if they feel the need to. On the other hand, why do I care? On the other hand, I don’t want to freak anyone out. Wait, that’s four hands…
    I don't think you should do anything differently. I have been OC'ing in Las Vegas for 4 years now. In that time I have been asked not to OC ina privatly owned grocery store... other than that, no issues.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    If you decide to keep going to the coffee shop, I'd suggest you havea confab with the barista or whoever is in charge to resolve the uncertainty upfront: Do they or will they have a problem with you OCing in the coffee shop.
    His demeanor was such that I didn’t feel he was withholding any apprehension; he pretty much told me there wasn’t a problem. The impetus is on him to change the status quo now. I learned in the Air Force you never ask a question when you might not like the answer, instead, you just use your best judgment. If you ask someone if it’s OK to do something and they aren’t sure (or are too lazy to find out), they will just say “no” because that’s the easiest thing to do.

    Honestly, I don’t think they have any problem with it, and I’ve been a regular customer for years. IOW, they know me and I doubt they would have any difficulty asking me to leave or conceal if that was what they wanted. My worry is that the TPD might decide to make life difficult for us if they get enough nervous-Nelly calls. I’m not trying to antagonize them [the TPD], but at the same time I’m not going to accept any grief from them either.

    Well, you can read the situation better than anyone. You sound a little vague, though, about the barista's position.

    I would agree wholeheartedly that using your best judgment is a good thing. But the old saw of "don't ask a question when you might no like the answer" is a loser of a analytic approach or philosophy. The biggest problem, among many, is that it pretty much guarantees error. Avoidable errors.

    One thing I do know, and we've seen this in other OC hassle reportings here regarding retail stores (i.e., unrequited's Barnes & Noble incident)--at some point the manager/employees of the store will ring up the po-lice if they get enough heat/complaints from the other customers. Even if the OCing customer has been there many times before, OCing. As far as I know, no one ever got fired for calling up the cops on a man with a gun....

    Good luck to you, regardless of what you decide to do.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    If you decide to keep going to the coffee shop, I'd suggest you havea confab with the barista or whoever is in charge to resolve the uncertainty upfront: Do they or will they have a problem with you OCing in the coffee shop.
    His demeanor was such that I didn’t feel he was withholding any apprehension; he pretty much told me there wasn’t a problem. The impetus is on him to change the status quo now. I learned in the Air Force you never ask a question when you might not like the answer, instead, you just use your best judgment. If you ask someone if it’s OK to do something and they aren’t sure (or are too lazy to find out), they will just say “no” because that’s the easiest thing to do.

    Honestly, I don’t think they have any problem with it, and I’ve been a regular customer for years. IOW, they know me and I doubt they would have any difficulty asking me to leave or conceal if that was what they wanted. My worry is that the TPD might decide to make life difficult for us if they get enough nervous-Nelly calls. I’m not trying to antagonize them [the TPD], but at the same time I’m not going to accept any grief from them either.
    I learned to research the Regs first and then ask my questions knowing the answer before hand. "Well Sir, according to AFI....."

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    EXPVIDEO

    UNLAWFUL: No law authorizing nor prohibiting.

    ILLEGAL: Specifically prohibited by law.

    Unlawful, yes...illegal NO... There is a big difference

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    UNLAWFUL: No law authorizing nor prohibiting.
    WHAT?!

  25. #25
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    From the Wiktionary:

    unlawful -
    Adjective

    Comparative
    more unlawful

    Superlative
    most unlawful
    1. Prohibited. Not permitted by law, may refer to civil or criminal law (see illegal). He was charged with unlawful use of a car.


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